Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on October 13, 2022, 11:48:54 am
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This question is primarily for guys who have done a fair amount of harvesting and processing. (I am missing Gary Davis here). If you were to design and build the most perfect mobile unit you could come up with, what would it look like? This would include cutting, hauling, dragging out of the woods, splitting and processing. If you are knowledgeable about machinery and would like to join in please do.
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Some of the questions I have? Once you chop down the tree how do you deal with part of the tree you are not using? Do you cut it up?
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I cut yew wood, I use any decent pieces of leftovers to make gaff handles and burn the rest in the shop wood stove. Try to use it all.
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Every stick of osage I ever cut I only had a chainsaw, a sledge hammer, wedges and a pick-up truck, I manhandled all the staves and left the top where it was.
Except for the last tree I cut, this time I had the equipment to make the cutting and hauling off the site a breeze.
A dozer pushed this tree over, I go permission to cut it from the city;
(https://i.imgur.com/w4oW1b7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vzQG7ny.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5H2OdCx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yolHLrM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hxqxh8E.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eVgKQdx.jpg)
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Eric, the question was more about what the ideal mobile unit for harvesting might look like. Not so much how we are currently doing it.
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I misunderstood the question I guess; this is my mobile unit; I don't know how you could make a better one. I have a much bigger tractor now, it wouldn't be near as handy going through tight places as the small one in the picture, it doesn't matter because my osage cutting days are over.
When it comes to processing, I asked Mike of the former Mike's osage if they used any power splitters to process the thousand or so staves they produced a year. He said they built a long log splitter to run their logs through but the splits would be unpredictable with a lot of waste so they went back to processing staves completely by hand.
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I misunderstood the question I guess; this is my mobile unit; I don't know how you could make a better one. I have a much bigger tractor now, it wouldn't be near as handy going through tight places as the small one in the picture, it doesn't matter because my osage cutting days are over.
When it comes to processing, I asked Mike of the former Mike's osage if they used any power splitters to process the thousand or so staves they produced a year. He said they built a long log splitter to run their logs through but the splits would be unpredictable with a lot of waste so they went back to processing staves completely by hand.
this was one of the main things I was wondering about was the splitting, I know when I split I have to change directions quite often because it doesn't always follow the grain
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I wanted to build an ATV log skidder like this for hauling logs out. I bought the axles and winch, but never got the steel.
(https://i.imgur.com/2KeOmzF.jpeg)
I've been using a simple log sled I made from barrels. It works surprisingly good. I've hauled big logs up hills with my old UTV. I built a log arch trailer that loads the logs with a winch and pivoting arch. I use that to transport logs to the sawmill.
(https://i.imgur.com/67oYM5Y.jpeg)
As far as splitting, this is my set up. I can't imagine a better way to do it. My yard is sloped. The rails are level. I drag a log in front of the top end and roll it onto the rails. I roll the logs to the bottom to split them. They are the perfect height to split without bending over. I roll them back and forth to walk the split down both sides. This is a huge back saver. I've split logs from morning until night without any back pain. This set up is much better than working on the ground.
(https://i.imgur.com/yECCUrY.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NnuXJcS.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BzrVjUU.jpeg)
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We don’t get anywhere near that volume of wood. Mostly we just cut 6-8 inch stuff to 6 foot lengths and rip them in half with a chainsaw and pack them out. Pretty well any yew tree the size of your Osage is spiral twisted so badly they are only good for lams. Mostly bull work all the way.
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Good Lawd! Y'all are cutting some big osage trees! I have a spot where I'm welcome to cut any Osage I want that has an ancient fencerow with the most enormous osage trees I've ever seen. I look at it each year with hopes of figuring out how to cut it without killing myself or having to find an adrenaline-junkie tree crew on drugs that might actually agree to do the job for me...and every year I walk away shaking my head. One of those trees would set me for my lifetime, but I just don't see how to get any of them down safely and without tearing the ^$% out of the adjacent ag field, as all of these trees are intertwined and enormous. After seeing this thread, I'm thinking I need to go look at those trees again and figure it out.
I am cutting a few 16' diameter trees and a bunch of 10-14' diameter trees out of the back of a muddy, hilly, rutty cow pasture and dragging the logs out with my electric buggy or the landowners mule one 7' log at a time then loading them end over end onto my 14' trailer. It's always a near heart-attack experience. That skidder looks really cool and useful, and I might look at building a slightly smaller version of that for cutting Osage back in the woods.
I've been thinking that the ideal setup for me would be a double axle trailer with seriously stout axles with some tall 10ply all terrain tires. The trailer would be only long enough for my hunting buggy or a 2 seat sxs to fit in it. It would have two or three out-and-up racks on each side made from stout steel. The bottom racks would be the widest and would hold two or three 16" x 7'-8' long or longer logs stacked on top of each other. The next rack up would hold a couple of 10"-12" logs of the same length, and the top rack could be for smaller diameter sections and saplings. I need to figure out a way to lift the bigger logs over the uprights of the rack and lower them into place, but brute force and determination would work absent a lift.
So the trailer would be ~35" wider than a standard electric buggy or sxs for easy maneuvering on decently maintained logging roads and the relatively open pastures I currently cut in, and it would be short enough to maneuver through the trees and have stout enough axles and suspension to carry that load down the interstate at 85 mph. I think it would be easy enough to make, but the last thing I want to design for it...I haven't figured out how to do it yet, I want it to have a short tongue for maneuvering with the buggy to and from the truck to the cut site, but I want to have a tongue that will extend about 5' for when I have it hooked up to the truck for long distance towing and backing it up when needed.
I wish I could post pics, but it's only a vision in my mind at this point. Maybe one day...
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Now we need some smart chap to design and make a bowstave sized wood splitter. Splitting large diameter logs is a young man's game.
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Here is my log arch trailer. A narrower version could work but you might need outriggers. I've used this set up to load a tractor tiller box, and huge landscaping boulders.
(https://i.imgur.com/eYZHQyo.jpeg)
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Now we need some smart chap to design and make a bowstave sized wood splitter. Splitting large diameter logs is a young man's game.
Brilliant…someone please get on this. I know some folks on here have the tools, creativity, and ability to get one of these built. I’d sure pay sone good money for one.
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Good set up Clint.
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As far as a splitter goes, I think a rack setup where the log was lying flat, and the hydraulic splitter came down on it from the top could work out well. You could start a split put a wedge in and move the jack to another spot. Splits will often run off and coming down from the top you could recover easily enough. You would need a heavy cherry picker or tractor that could lift a 2,000# log onto the rack.
As for dragging logs out of the woods, I would think you could use winches. If you had some kind of a roller you could attach to the side of a tree for you winch cable to ride on you would be able to zig zag out minimizing the amount of time it takes moving the set up from tree to tree.
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Harvesting hedge logs is hard on the body.I use a tractor with a bucket for large logs and that being able to drive up to the tree also.Dumping log onto a trailer or onto the yard.
Luckily I don't need to drive very far.
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Harvesting hedge logs is hard on the body.I use a tractor with a bucket for large logs and that being able to drive up to the tree also.Dumping log onto a trailer or onto the yard.
Luckily I don't need to drive very far.
Ed, if you were going to build a complete mobile station for harvesting and processing staves what would it look like?
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complete mobile station for harvesting and processing staves what would it look like?
Steve, define mobile.
Travel to different locations to process the logs into staves? in which case you would set up your splitter at a log landing and have to move the log some distance to the landing?
Take your splitter directly to the tree? In the same fashion one takes a Lucas Mill (https://www.lucasmill.com/) to the tree?
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The long distance pick me up trailer Clint showed should work for large logs like that.There are electric winches with an extended arm that could be mounted into the back end of a pick up if one was serious about harvesting hundreds and hundreds of staves.Winch would get paid for itself in a month I imagine Steve.
I've found there's really no way to get around the work it takes to harvest a lot of staves at a time.I'm not one to be selling staves myself as I have other income,but I still like to keep 70 to 80 staves around anyway.I accomplish that by harvesting 6" to 12" logs at different periods of time.Handling them is easier.Replenishing the inventory periodically.
Dating staves with a magic marker.
The fencing companies in my area are always harvesting posts also showing huge piles of logs of various sizes for sale,but the old wood wasp can find those if laid around too long in warm weather too leading to more work to get to one ring.
Splitting them I keep a half dozen steel wedges around with a large sledge hammer.
Thing is when I walk away from my staves for good I'll have the bark and sapwood removed and have them shellacked back and ends.Even have them trimmed up using the band saw.That's where most of the work is anyway on collecting staves.
Getting them to the yard is only a fraction of the work.
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It doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion, but I keep thinking of the Super Axe Hacker when I read this thread, and I just can't resist saying so anymore...
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Ed is right, there will be a lot of physical work involved no matter what equipment you have. I figured I'd pick up and move each stave that I sold at least 10 times.
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Ed is right, there will be a lot of physical work involved no matter what equipment you have. I figured I'd pick up and move each stave that I sold at least 10 times.
That would be exactly the thing we would need to talk about. Let's suppose we had a very well-designed flatbed trailer equipped with a splitter, a saw, and grinders for sapwood and bark. Also winches for dragging out of the woods and cherry pickers or hoists to lift them. It may even need a chipper for cleaning up the mess. It is fully processed before ever leaving the field.
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That would be exactly the thing we would need to talk about. Let's suppose we had a very well-designed flatbed trailer equipped with a splitter, a saw, and grinders for sapwood and bark. Also winches for dragging out of the woods and cherry pickers or hoists to lift them. It may even need a chipper for cleaning up the mess. It is fully processed before ever leaving the field.
a well designed trailer with all the processing equip mentioned would be nice if one anticipated traveling to different areas for harvesting.
the trailer that large would not be very handy for getting too close to the tree though. you might consider skidding the log to your trailer as a separate operation? perhaps the truck that pulls the trailer could load the skidder on the truck bed and also mount the crane?
are you visualizing a F250 sized operation or a Kenworth?
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An operation like that would take some brewing of thought.An investment as well.I'll admit it would be nice to leave the organized mess in the field before leaving.You would maybe need to take a tent with you possibly to stay overnight if it was too far away....ha ha if there was too many staves to process from a large tree or make a couple trips to seal the deal.
I've seen the mess on other peoples land that loggers leave after harvesting oak trunks for pallet wood.Not a pleasant site at all.No clean up at all.Plus their equipment tears the woods up hauling out trunks.Mess of a pile of limbs left in the woods too.Speculative nonfarmer land buyers buying land on pure commission profits and land hike prices that do this are a detrement to the woods IMHO.They'll get around $200.00 a trunk.Cut hundreds of mature 50 to 70 year old oaks.The good loggers leave a few parent trees but the bad ones take everything.
Watching fencing companies harvesting posts they come with a trailer with a skidster on it.A couple of men with chain saws.Then later a bull dozer to clean the mess up and smoothen out the prior fence line.They'll take out a 1/4 mile of hedge growing along a fence line.Piling what they don't use for the land owner to burn.Those piles set there for years before getting burned also.
Using a hydraulic splitter I think might leave a lot of waste opposed to wedges and a sledge hammer..I'd say it would be hard to beat a draw knife to get to a ring too.Some hand work would need to be done I'm afraid.
Cutting a large tree down will leave a large mess requiring equipment horse power to handle....crooked limbs etc. not worthy of being a stave.
I find by being opportunistic harvesting 6" to 12" handleable trees getting 15 to 20 staves at a time is doable for me in a day leaving with the staves in the bed of the truck.Cleaning them up on the yard to get stored away.
Maybe someone else can figure something out.
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The McGuire's had the biggest osage operation I had ever heard of, two people working full time around Nashville, Mike said they sold 30K staves over time. A good part of their time was spent traveling all over the country to tournaments so they could market the staves, this in itself is expensive. They sold some online but then they had the packaging and shipping. They weren't getting rich in the osage business and appeared to be just scraping by. There was also the physical toll that this kind of work does to your body; Mike's shoulders, arms and hands were a wreck from drawknife work.
I don't think an operation of the scale that you envision would be profitable, the market just isn't out there, most of us serious (in my case former serious) osage bow builders cut our own wood.
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The good news is osage is a very prolific tree.No fear of exterminating the species here....ha ha.Volunteers pop up all over the place on large sections of hilly land left fallow.The deer help out with this process eating the hedge balls after freezing takes the acidity out of the hedge ball and transferring the seeds through their droppings.Thousands of seeds in those balls.
The thing about osage or any tree really is that it'll grow straight and tall better in congested areas of other trees leading to longer straight trunks for more and better staves.
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The McGuire's had the biggest osage operation I had ever heard of, two people working full time around Nashville, Mike said they sold 30K staves over time. A good part of their time was spent traveling all over the country to tournaments so they could market the staves, this in itself is expensive. They sold some online but then they had the packaging and shipping. They weren't getting rich in the osage business and appeared to be just scraping by. There was also the physical toll that this kind of work does to your body; Mike's shoulders, arms and hands were a wreck from drawknife work.
I don't think an operation of the scale that you envision would be profitable, the market just isn't out there, most of us serious (in my case former serious) osage bow builders cut our own wood.
Yes, I had to quit making bows because I could no longer afford the staves but I don't begrudge the guys selling them because I know how hard they work. I did a little breakdown on how income might be distributed. Vehicle and travel expenses including equipment is a big one. Marketing, sales, and distribution is other big one. You would also have to find pay a finder's fee to those who turned us on to the sight where we could cut. I think the trick would be to have them sold before they were even cut sight unseen just based on our reputation. Someone would be sitting in their house taking orders and send the orders out to the truck which was equipped with a label printer. It would take some planning because it would be a real operation. I guess it would start with designing a mobile unit and then figuring out what it would cost to put it together.
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Damn Clint. Looks like you’ve got quite the set up. Seems to be the best I’ve seen without too much Heavy machinery. Cutting staves is a tone of work no matter how you spin it