Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BowEd on March 26, 2022, 07:32:16 pm
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Hello all...
Here's a winged elm I sinewed last fall before deer season.The name salt and pepper snake comes from the name locals will give the black speckeled king snake."The old snake eater".Adorned by locals.I acquired these from road kills.
The bow is 62" TTT.47.5#'s @ 28".Finished mass weight is 18.50 ounces for those concerned.
Prior to sinewing I heat treated in around 5" of reflex first.
I then applied 1000 grains of sinew in 3 courses on 3' of inner limbs and handle increasing the reflex a little more each time.A simple composite construction with no horn.Moose and elk leg sinew for the first 2 courses and 225 grains worth of 28" long buffalo backstrap sinew for the increasingly crowned third course.
First 2 courses on crowned already.
(https://i.imgur.com/9Z3RU8i.jpg)
28" length back strap and 7" overlapping ends to be put on at base of lever fades ready for final third course crowning it even more.Showing this because this is about the longest length sinew I've ever put on a bow.
(https://i.imgur.com/tSvN0hc.jpg)
Sinew for third course layed out on bow to check for proper length.
(https://i.imgur.com/51RRMp7.jpg)
Final reflexing of 9" side view profile.
(https://i.imgur.com/mumdec8.jpg)
Everything lined up well and bow set off to cure.
(https://i.imgur.com/HH9gyvk.jpg)
Curing time of around 6 months done.Overlays on and ready to tiller.Limb on the right has slightly more reflex of about an inch.
(https://i.imgur.com/lBWGT3y.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aoJmiWL.jpg)
Final thickness of sinew occupying 25% to 30% of the working limbs' thickness.
Most of the reflex is in the inner limbs and rising quickly right out of the fades.Outer limbs stiffish,but still working to a small degree.Around 11" of working limbs and around 15" of stiffish outer limbs.
Details of it's behavior after tillering and a few 3 hour shootings of around 200 arrows has it resting at 7.75".After a 3 hour shoot it unbraces to a scooch over 6".Two hours later back to 7.5".Back to 7.75" over night.
I wanted the grain of the wood and texture of the rawhide to show through so I used a charcoal grey stain on the outer limbs,beef rawhide lace grip,and deer rawhide wraps to match the black and white snake skin color.
Did a little scrimshaw using black india ink on one of the goat horn overlays.My usual slightly raised horn dot arrow pass also.
Finish is an epifanes tung oil based 2 step brushed on spar varnish to give it more detailed see through rubbed in look matte finish.It can take a few days to harden depending on humidity as it's a tung oil base finish.
A few weeks ago I posted a pre-look of the bow in "Test/a little news" http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,71240.0.html
Some more of the story can be found there.I would suggest reading through the other links attatched there also.
(https://i.imgur.com/SF8NW0w.jpg)
Balance point very close to arrow pass.Feels and looks good while drawing also.
(https://i.imgur.com/40wNaIz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kLsEQXI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5KfxBcD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YEeqn89.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tX6dgZ9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IjZ8O0s.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3Tuuk4o.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2a5SNmd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JlnxcbB.jpg)
You could add close to 3" more of stiff fade to that length.
(https://i.imgur.com/4SH8vNq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1r95QgB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HNESlWW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0PSNQnK.jpg)
As a final test I grabbed a 615 grain ocean spray shoot arrow that I would use while hunting and shot it through the chronograph also @ 28" draw.That's a 13 grain arrow for this bow.I had Robin spot for me as I shot.Used the same 3 ply 9 strand 70 grain string as before.I got 2 duplicate shots at 165 fps from that.This will bode well for me come hunting season as the extra momentum and KE from a heavier arrow with the speed does benefit penetration.
9 strands is way more than strong enough for this bow.I could of got along with a 2 ply 6 strand string and probably pushed to the 190 fps mark or more with a 10 grain arrow if I wanted to.
I must state that this has been done before in a simple composite design.First I saw was by Steve Gardner[Badger] with some bamboo backed bows of similar design close to 15 years ago using a very dense core wood.This is just my top view version of it using sinew and reflex.Without others attempts it probably would'nt happen.
(https://i.imgur.com/qDFqvsK.jpg)
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wow...that bow looks fast even without a string. You did your usual excellent job on this one Ed. The profile, the back-set, the sinew job, tip overlays, perfect tiller, and then the finishing touches that always are "just enough". It looks to be a hunting bow for sure. Thanks for sharing. :OK
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The name sure fits that bow. I love the resting profile and the snakeskins on this bow! Your bows are so creative. I can tell you put a lot of effort into this bow. Looks smooth and fast. Thanks for posting this one Ed.
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Very nice bow, Ed. Often wondered about a sinew backed Molle style bow. 8)
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Thanks Bob and Will.I barely had enough snake skin.I'm going down south soon so I'll see if I can pick up a couple more.
It'll be worth the effort Pat whenever.
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Just plain WOW! Love everything about it - cool design, the snakes look awesome and the reflex is insane! I have very little experience with sinew and wouldn’t have thought it would have paired this well with elm - great job!
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Thanks Kidder.Glad you liked it.
Sinew will work well with many other woods too.
Actually the amount of reflex is fairly mild from what I've done in the past but it was enough to make a difference.
I was impressed by the small amount of permanent set it took after tillering.The length on this bow had something to do with that and the moderate amount of reflex.
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Very well done as usual Ed. Would have expected nothing less from you. Love the skins on this bow. It suits it nicely. I’m hoping to retain as much reflex in mine too. Right now I’m at 11” reverse braced. My guess would be that I’d keep little over half of this but I’ll have to wait till it dries. Fingers crossed. Those stiff tips on yours looks sweet. Love everything about this bow actually. Truly inspiring work. Keep it up.
Cheers
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Thanks Dave....You should do very well with your bow and I like it too.
I'll say you should retain at least 8" of your reflex.I hope you prove me wrong.
Sometime I'd like to do a willow shaped working limb of this type that I've shown.
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wow ed what a reflex - looks :( cool, nice speed also! guess its Molle Month 😂
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Thanks Rowan....You've been making some real dandies over there yourself.Keep it up.You've been as busy as a beaver.It can only get better.
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Awesome bow Ed. Like Pat I’ve wondered about this design. Seem like it should make good use of the materials it uses and their capabilities.
Bjrogg
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That’s a beauty Ed!!! You are really testing the belly of the inners on that bow with that design. Very well done. Arvin
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Thats a great looking bow Ed. You got this sinewed bow thing figured out pretty well. (lol)
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Thanks BJ.....
It's just a matter of putting things down in a way that it can be used properly while understanding the materials' capabilities like you said.
Do try one sometime I'm sure you won't regret it.
They pull smooth/release dead in the hand and move the arrow along well.
I have a piece of ironwood here,something I'm sure your familiar with that I want to achieve or close to the results as a self bow.
I also have seen a bow such as this and that others have made even in the lower 40's poundage wise for easier draw yet spit a hunting weight arrow very well too.More than enough to put a deer down.
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That’s a beauty Ed!!! You are really testing the belly of the inners on that bow with that design. Very well done. Arvin
Thanks Arvin....
Yes I do realize that.I wanted to show one without horn that'll come very close to what they can do.
If it was black cherry I'd be a lot more worried about that.
Only time will tell.I usually always put my bows through half dozen 3D shoots and much shooting inbetween to test them.I've been thinking about reducing the poundage to counteract things that could occur.Midway on working the limbs is already a shade below 1/2" thick.Sinew occupies somewhere between 25%-30% of the limbs thickness.
The speed will still be more than enough to hunt deer with and a more comfortable draw yet.
Not quite ready to proclaim winged elm is the king yet though,but it is some tough stuff without the extra mass weight osage will carry.
Thats a great looking bow Ed. You got this sinewed bow thing figured out pretty well. (lol)
Thanks Dave....
I guess a bit anyway.Always room or improvement though.Might see you at MoJam later.
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Really incredible work and a wild amount of reflex. I’m curious where bows like this lose efficiency. Wonder if the hysteresis is different with it being sinew backed and pulling back into reflex. Would like to see a F/D curve too. Amazing how so many different designs can break into that super high performance area. Should definitely test it at 10gpp.
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great work,, congrats,, :)
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Thanks Ryan....I would'nt call the bow here super high in performance Ryan,but enough to take note of.It's been done before in the past and believe it can be duplicated again.Storing energy and releasing it seems are 2 different things.The lacrosse player stick effect I think has something to do with it also.
The bow was tested at 10gpp.You did'nt read everything like it was suggested.Unless it did'nt come up for you which happens on this site on occasions.I made sure things were legit while testing.Otherwise what's the sense in it.
Sometime I would like to test it with a 6 strand string.
Like most of my bows.I do follow up on them later.Something that does'nt happen a lot of times.Like I said to Arvin time will tell.
I did'nt see much [a few 10ths of a pound] lose of draw weight checking at 20"/pulling to full draw and rechecking at 20" again.Same thing when checking multiple times draw weight at full draw either so I'd say there was very little hysteresis.
The thing about a sinewed bow to me is that when rested unstrung from shooting the sinewed bow is like shooting a fresh bow in a sense again because the sinew has had a chance to recover back from stretching and shooting previously.It all takes time.
The practical side of me will put the bow through the motions of being a bow.I can assure you of that.A hunting season will truly reveal how well this bow will hold up.
It is smooth to shoot.The only thing a FD would show is where.
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Thanks Brad.
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Impressive. I like all the details. It sounds like a lot of work went into both the design and execution. Is there a design decision in the different kinds of sinew, or was it just what you had?
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Thanks Don....
Actually the design layout and alignment to floor tillering is'nt that difficult and faster than other designs IMO.Deciding how much stiff and how much bending area you want comes from making them.
I try to keep plenty of sinew around of different types.Any type of it will work for sinewing bows.I like to use sinew for performance reasons.Usually in 3 courses then.
It's the outside crown or layer that will do most of the work on a bow.Sinew can take an enormous amount more stretching compared to wood at a lot less width also.So crowning it down the center line on the limb as you apply it makes it work the most.
I'll describe my usual procedure.The bow is sized well prior to sinewing with multiple thin coats of hide glue till it's glassy smooth after partially drying.
Using a little thicker glue the first course is layed/pressed down lightly over the whole width of the limb using various lengths overlapping the ends close to 1.5".Let dry for a good week or two.
Lightly sand dried first course smooth.Apply a good sizing of hide glue for second course.Second course is layed the same way but narrower in from the edges of the limb overlapping again but not in the same places as the first layer.Let dry for a week or two again.
Lightly sand dried second course smooth again.Apply a good sizing of hide glue for third course.Third course is layed on narrower yet [usually only 3/4" wide or less by then] using the longest sinew I've got the full length of the working limb.Let the bow cure then.
You can comb these strands before applying to the bow or lay them as perfectly straight as you can.I usually lay them on 3 strands at a time avoiding any twisting of strands.It can look swelled up and like a mess at first after applying it but if you can get it to look nice and smooth just after applying,it will look very nice and smooth after drying.
Most peoples' first attempt at sinewing can look horrible.I'm no exception to that either.With experience you can get it looking very nice.
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Thanx for posting Ed. This is a stunning bow with a stunning finish! Once again remarkable what wood can do under your hands!
cheers
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Thanks simk...You do an excellent job of getting the best out of a wood bow yourself over there.With a little luck I might get to show a pick up box of logs of this winged elm in the future.I'm working on it.
It seems when ever a bow is shown of this type reflex that is,noone really asks how a person gets a string on one of these.A problem that took me a while in the beginning to make easier and more convenient.I'm sure there are other ways but this way has worked well for me.
I went to using a peg board.To me just a little more intense floor tillering stage.From there you can get the bend even,if necessary and get the exact length of string to use and then get it braced to see what you've got.
I don't mind sharing as it's something anyone can do.The bend will be more from the fades like this on the peg board and will change once a string is on pitting one limb against the other.More bend then into the outer part of the working limbs at brace.Just like any other bow.The string alignment can be checked good also then.At full draw the outers stay stiff and the bend shifts to the inner limbs.Where the real power is.This process takes me less work than long stringing a bow.
(https://i.imgur.com/cJdhCKs.jpg)
I like to keep the belly of the handle fade limb width and flat at this stage.Of course getting it locked into the first peg is always a revealing adventure.It's then I'm always amazed [besides while tillering it] as to what sinew can do and to see if my sinewing work was done correctly also.
From there it's a couple inches at a time letting it rest stretching an hour in between stages to a braced position of the tips.
This one took a just few scrapes with a cabinet scraper to get right.It's still a little stiffer in the right limb a bit.It's very sensitive throughout this process.So slow and steady.The string is ready to be put on this one.
Some question the stability on these.This one had no issues at first bracing.
I usually put the higher reflexed limb to the bottom on most bows but this one not.My decision was made that way because of the way it looked and felt in the hand at brace and drawing on it.The slight opposing propellers had the string slightly off to one side of the handle.It shoots the best that way too.
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I'm a total newbie, but that bow looks scary to me! it seem very hard to string even if the poundage isn't that high... very well done btw, that's a magnificent bent stick!
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Thanks Zugal....It may seem that way but after a while it really is'nt.The easiest and safest way I've found to string these is with a primitive stringer.It can seem to look scary even to veteran FG bow makers out there.
(https://i.imgur.com/K91H3Cm.jpg)
Honestly I've never had one harm myself in this manner.
It may be hard for some to understand but it's all a test of ones' materials/designs and abilities.Confidence builds with success and further builds move on.There are others on here that feel the same way and do magnificent work.They all are inspirational in what they do.
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Beautiful bow Ed, very nice work in all aspects. :)
Pappy
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Thats some reflex! Looks great. Real nice bow all around!
Mike
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Ed your bows are incredible.. gut
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Thats crazy reflex, just looks fast sittin still.... great work
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Thanks fellas....
I had been waiting for quite some time for a bow to accomodate the small amount of king snake skin I had.It was just enough.The amount helped sway me to making this type bow.
I think I can speak for other bowyers in that every bow made is a journey.Hopefully it's basically a trouble free one with minor problems easily solved.Some just take longer than others.It's the only way I know how to learn.
It's good to see large group of excellent bowyers on here again like there used to be 10 years ago.They showed 1 terrific bow after another back then.Many have left,but have been replaced.I do stay in touch with a few yet.
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Nice work. Bet that bow would be hell to string with out a stringer. super reflex. :BB
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It's possible and I've done it but it is more touchy then.Using the primitive stringer eliminates that.I'm not a fan of the step through method of stringing,but doing that properly every time can work too.I'm not that good doing it.It can strain 1 limb more than another over time to change it's tiller even on a bow without much reflex.
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how do you string it,, I dont think I have seen your stringer,, anything to avoid tiller shifting is good (-S
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how do you string it,, I dont think I have seen your stringer,, anything to avoid tiller shifting is good (-S
It can happen I can attest to that.There's a limit as to how much reflex it can string though.I'll go to a peg board then.This one is 11.25" of reflex.Going over 12" and farther like I said I go to a peg board.It can depend on the amount of static bend that is on a tip also.Picture of the stringer is on previous page.
(https://i.imgur.com/QaGubmu.jpg)
My right hand is doing all the pulling.The left hand is there just to steady it.
(https://i.imgur.com/slDbCfL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Wej3cor.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5Tvpfcr.jpg)
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thank you so much,, and details on the leather grips,, :) I would like to make one
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Here's another made from beef rawhide for square tips with a braided clothes line.Some times used to brace a bow before string grooves are filed in or to see the bend of the limbs long stringing to brace height.
This one used to not stress the limbs much before heat treating or sinewing.Then it's used to reverse brace a bow after sinewing.
(https://i.imgur.com/AtagFAd.jpg)
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thank you for the stringing info,, :)
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A tid-bit of info also why I like to use that primitive stringer with these higher reflexed composite bows.
Part of the learning curve getting to know these composite bows.
Sinew or horn is a lot more elastic than wood.It will take a bend more easily.This can depend on the percentage of thickness of composite material the limb has.Higher percentage above 50%/more elastic.It also depends on the area of the handle the pressure is on while stringing them.Stringing them unbalanced will show a bow out of tiller at brace.Then the bows' string on the stronger limb will need to be pressed down immediately to balance the brace.
This bow was in tiller after I braced it,so no pressure was needed,but placement of my hand or the innertube shows the fix here.
(https://i.imgur.com/W2cy42e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CS57QE4.jpg)
If it's extreme I use an inner tube on the stronger limb a few minutes to balance it moving the inner tube closer to the handle for more pressure.Sometimes even then slow removal of material/lots of excersizing is the only way to get them balanced.
When releasing the pressure the bow will show you.
After releasing I let it set a few minutes or more to be satisfied with the look of it.Most times I let it set a few minutes.Pull it to full draw a few times.Check the balance and it's good to go.
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Thanks Ed, one more good purpose for those innertubes! Sometimes the edgy bows shift tiller a little 😄
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Your so right Simon.A little removal can make a difference.
Once settled in good there are no problems then and they stay balanced.I don't want anyone to feel that it's that overwhelming to get a string on these type bows.
Guess a person could say I have an obsession for reflex.....Here's a few pictures of a different bow/similar style that I made some time ago.60" TTT. 48#'s @ 28".Before tillering it rested with 15" of reflex.After tillering and shooting it in it rests with 12".
Most reflex I've ever tillered a bow from myself.
Outstanding performance numbers from this bow.
Before tillering.
(https://i.imgur.com/Bfpkd7w.jpg)
after tillering.
(https://i.imgur.com/znzQwcD.jpg)
At brace.String dead nuts down the center.
(https://i.imgur.com/lVbYRlL.jpg)
full draw.
(https://i.imgur.com/XdmAWKH.jpg)
The primitive stringer was just enough to get a string on this one.This bow draws smooth as butter.
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I saw BJrogg's post about Ed's extreme profiles on the Elm thread and had to do a search. I don't know how I missed this one, but it deserves a bump. That is a sweet bow and crazy profile!
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I thought I was up to date on this thread, but missed those last photos as well. That is really a shocking amount of reflex!
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If their is a perfect bow you are building them Ed. Your bows are some thing special. You are right up their with the best of the best.
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I just threw that bow out there a little while ago to show others not to be afraid to push the envelope.
The bow should be drawn to about 30" to really appreciate it's performance.
A lot of heartache can happen along the way,but in the end it's worth it to me.