Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on December 06, 2021, 01:52:02 pm
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So, as I mentioned in another thread, I had a tillering tree explode the other day. I think my scale, which was blown to pieces, provided enough weight on the string that the bow wasn't damaged by the dry shoot. But whew. Let's not do that again, agreed?
Anyway, here's where I'm at now. To me, the right (top) still looks a little stiff through the mid, even after thinning down. It's at pretty close to perfect draw weight now. Should I leave well enough alone or keep fiddling with it? And if I do fiddle, should I thin it more or remove more from belly? What says the PA oracle?
Braced
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhDk0ogeAeZyByiIYAW3qesiMJdt7YUHjLwoxgPdwAaKMbPG56x0yXHUbkQhsUAfdo3ZvGOas4BpPhPZe6VwNpybUjmxMiqVAYvcMbzXsUi13MyW7KnwGt4towZgp-8A9AJP-W5LZBrdSZWGN1Cp1OvLDjXH0AVxK3tSAQDLbDuqPAmIrOwhBxwJO1o=s1600)
24"
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEi4pPOtTdq7M3swq0U2kscZ9WkjMAPXwDygW8oKC6m83su-oW7OJOKWoYhgrisB88DYOqPV-QCcZkSTTJX_9VyTS_8xFENZf5X-TJZAyehrtv3S0mlCDBndIoCoP1jfNBcA_9_NZGo3OMbN1GWuaTC5haf14HRUrxpe2P3saCd0Jdpg7nIDJh6DpCEF=s1155)
Full draw 27"
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhBk6E9D3g4a7avtPTFU2lC2og-S7DfFdW4bWhgjvvN7BWkXtpJJRla6A3ejWuEHTxlYtdC41jNCy_4THbg6qxYZBQpNTbzSqhbA6cw6ykXGTk3dFfKZg5V2YqKa9TgiQ7omKjPvhax_tHJTKn7U7qwRcYJ_4X37fbm0ak2WH_QQ1n2YoQ4Sdaj9DeV=s1361)
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Looks like mid limb on the right need to bend more. It shouldn't take very many scrapes to fix it and that's the way I'd go.
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What’s your width taper? In terms of just symmetry, the right side is bending more in the inner limb close to the fade.
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Ryan, I'll measure and see when I get home, but I believe it's about 1 3/4" at the fade and about 3/8 at the tip, even taper.
So, maybe a few scrapes off the left fade and the right middle?
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I’m with pat. Hit that mid limb a little and it will change the overall bend of that limb. I wouldn’t try to match the left to right, more the other way around and I think thinning that mid limb a hair will do it.
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I wouldn't touch the left fade until the right side is bending better. That looks like a near-hinge to me coming out of the fade on the right.
Mark
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It might be helpful to see the unstrung profile.
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+1, with TimBo
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Looks like mid limb on the right need to bend more. It shouldn't take very many scrapes to fix it and that's the way I'd go.
+1
That's exactly what I saw...
Del
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It is almost hinging off the right fade - that is what makes the mid-limb look stiff. Look at the thickness of left fade versus right fade...
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OK. Did a little belly scraping on the right midlimb. Better? What now?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEh1MchmOEtYavW3OY-AYf0owONG_G5wAZnoWFw0O33V866roA2ek0pnESQ2Gc9F4nuDkjq7WW12rHf2vpO5WNQBGdyUamBF2dkFtWS96sAsD8_LiJseYbBwoYWItsFRhoNhO5dN0bDwd-_Iag05lX28vrZryxF4QdxHiDUEIaXOcYaa7dIKAVUOqhNh=s1425)
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That left limb looks perfect by my eye, the right is still bending too much right @ the fade. How close are you to your intended / desired draw weight?
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Thanks, Morgan. It's actually right at my target weight--55#@27". I'm sure it will lose a couple pounds as I shoot it in. What, if anything, do I do about that too-bendy right fade? I'm afraid if I take the bow down to where it evens out, it will be too light to hunt with.
Timbo and Hamish, I keep forgetting to take an unstrung pic, and I can only post to the forum at work. (There's still some weirdness with the security on the site that won't let me post from my chromebook at home) It is dead straight unstrung, if that helps. No reflex, no string follow.
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There are mixed opinions on this, but you could heat temper that weak spot to stiffen it up a little. It looks like you may have dipped a tiny amount too much as you ended the fade? Evening that out along the limb might cost between 5 and 10 pounds. If it were me I'd try heat first
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The left looks close to perfect to me, the hinge at the right fade throws all the rest of the limb off.
Sometimes this happens if you work down the the fade to the limb, it is easy to dish out a place. I always work up the fade from the limb after hinging a few fades after rasping down them to the limb.
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Yes, Eric, I did a little feeling the thickness, and I think that's exactly what happened. I worked down the fades with a farrier's rasp, and it put just a tiny dip in that side. Dang, there are a lot of ways to screw this up, and I'm finding all of them.
OK, guys, please help me out here. It sounds like working it down to match the hinge would make the bow lighter than I want. I don't need another 45 lb. bow, so if that's what's going to happen I'll probably not bother finishing it. That would be a tremendous bummer, because for one thing I've put a huge amount of time into this thing, and for another this is the last really nice stave I have to work with.
So, What do I do with this thing?
--What would the consequences be if I just leave well enough alone and just leave that hingey spot? If it's a good shooting bow that just looses a little power or longevity because of the hinge, I can live with that. But I don't want it blowing up on me or losing so much power that it won't hunt.
--What do the rest of you think of Stuck's heat treat idea? I've seen people advise against that in other threads because the results are so unpredictable, but maybe this is a different case? I've already heat treated the belly, if that matters.
--Any other ideas besides chop it up for the smoker? With the holiday season coming up, I guess that isn't the absolute most tragic option. -C- ;D But I'd sure like to save it if I can.
I sure appreciate the help, guys.
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I’m not sure what the consequences would be of leaving it. If it’s going to fail, it will probably be at that weakest spot. You can re heat it there. May or may not work. You can over heat and cause the rings to delaminate. Happened recently to a bow of mine, certain that was the cause so be careful there. If you have the length to work with you can pike it and re-tiller working that mid to outer limb around. My first several bows, I struggled with too much bend in the middle. I have to consciously work mid limb out and move in to the fades as I get the mid to outers moving like I want them to. If I don’t I’ll flub it up every time. Whatever you do, good luck and have fun doing it.
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By all means give the area a heat treat, very slightly reflex the hingy area when you do. I have a lot of bow bending forms in my shop and have heat treated a 6" spot that got weak on part of one of my forms with a very slight bend, it worked.
Really heat the area, spend some time, don't get your heat gun too close to the wood and let the area rehydrate for several days before you try to bend your bow.
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How does it draw/shoot? If thats all good I'd enjoy the bow, watch for set in that area and go from there. I bet there are lots of guys that would kill to be able to tiller a bow to that point. I would not make it the VIP of your next BBQ just yet :)
Mike
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OK, thanks for the encouraging words. I'll try cooking it this evening, letting it sit for a few days, and see where that puts me. If that doesn't work, I might just leave it alone. Eric, I'm guessing maybe just a quarter inch or so of reflex in the fade? Never tried that before.
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Be very careful not to pop the handle off if you add any reflex there.
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It's got a self-handle, so shouldn't be a problem.
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I know, but if you flex it backwards the rings can pop apart rather easily.
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You really want to work on that hinge not the fade itself, 1/4" would be fine.
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Ah, gotcha. I'll just put the heat, and the reflex, where that thin area is. Wish me luck!
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Umm I'm highly dubious that will sort out your problem. You can of course try it BUT be aware that once you have heat treated the effects of doing it again will be reduced. Just shooting it will not be good for that area out of the fade. The strain on a bow goes up the closer you get to the fades....that area is under quite some pressure!
If you really didn't want to lose more weight I would be tempted to fix the hinge by adding a small amount of flax/hemp fibers to the back. Glued with either hide glue or TTB3.
This will fix the hinge 100% without any of the other potential 'issues'. Get some raw unspun fibers.
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Bownarra have you tried flax fibers in TB3 to fix a hinge?
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Well dang, Bownarra, I already did it. Gave it a good 20 minute heat treat and put in just a little reflex. I'll give it a few days to rehydrate, put it on the tree, and see where we're at. I'll probably head up the hill this weekend to collect some dogbane for fibers; supposed to be stronger than flax. It this fix pulls out, which I kind of expect, I'll try slapping some fibers on there. Not much to lost at this point, so maybe it's experimentation time. Either way, I've gotta wrap this thing up and go find that beautiful piece of juniper...
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OK. Heat treated about a 3" section just out of the right fade; added about 1/4" of reflex. A little better? Honestly I can't see a huge difference. Seems to have picked up another pound or two of weight...or maybe it's just colder.
Edit: Here's a before and after pic for comparison.
Before:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEh1MchmOEtYavW3OY-AYf0owONG_G5wAZnoWFw0O33V866roA2ek0pnESQ2Gc9F4nuDkjq7WW12rHf2vpO5WNQBGdyUamBF2dkFtWS96sAsD8_LiJseYbBwoYWItsFRhoNhO5dN0bDwd-_Iag05lX28vrZryxF4QdxHiDUEIaXOcYaa7dIKAVUOqhNh=s1425)
After:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgIFrSXdrGeF8jvdL28mWSQFY3uNDK_GzBoO7nB2yRw-SyWI8C3V0b7N6Nwi3ZL4ov_bGauO2qBC4xD-uIBttEmkU84O39TDgLROyLioLVrB1sxyOYTdTcr2dC8dpwA8r-ZoAMchipdUFPlHo5yI5SedM6erEIE5WdMkp1nho5xVf42In2JalNMnxRj=w400-h228)
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Looks about the same to me to WB.
How close are you to your draw length and weight.
I’m sorry if you already said it. I didn’t read everything.
I’m thinking the only way to completely cure the hinge is to get everything past it bending a little more.
Hate getting one there.
Bjrogg
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I actually think you improved that spot. If you could hit that R midlimb just a bit, it should even up the limbs. Also, you might want to post a hand-drawn photo. That right limb is upper, yes? Have you tried flipping it and shooting it that way?
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Looks better to me, you have a stiff spot from the end of the stained part in about 6". It will show if you run a gizmo (assuming you have one) down the limb. If you get this spot bending your former hinge will be nonexistent.
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TimBo, right limb is the upper, correct. I designed it so the string is off-center to the right, so I can't flip it. (I'm a lefty)
So, give the belly a few scrapes in this area here?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjsQEvDpHIf_nbDH4pb9bIpZtranzS77WPvbvbG23xELLYf96Rkvj7K87ZtB3S_dqan-SxK7Ze8C6vQiCO1FC12DbuGuBtL0WTRfacp9uFwgY1F7ICWtMCMnkZiHM754Bg3K-AJy6FW1rGPvPq71UA4fjk841vr4ftfn6ysAdsQ0WLAfeDyOjeqlR3S=w640-h364)
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OK, the latest. Looks better, I think. (?) The difference is so subtle it's really hard for me to tell. But Eric's gizmo isn't showing any stiff spots at brace or half draw, so that's got to be good. What's everybody think? Should I just finish this thing already?
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjcIcFocobS-ZvcZwrIkMWwkm-9ejDRP4oKF4w-kI9htrhSSOwzlHCEZRXGfR0O-McoCtnEpxxlr5sfKdLo1QJNCVCpiPiiCZygdfZwOQSR_ervxK8DSuO-7dwnMeNLnC2YNkZQTVBJIkGwcwrBoiOhHiOOdFh2DPioUE9JVzpz_iUqST2fvhk23VEj=w640-h400)
Whatever the case, I hope everybody has a wonderful Christmas full of loved ones, peace, a bit of adventure if that's what you're in the mood for, and some killer archery gear under the tree. ;D
ho ho ho--Thomas
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I'm not an expert but for me is pretty much spot on! Great job!
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That’s looking better to me wb. I don’t know how much that effected your draw weight, but I think it will help that hinge area hold up longer.
Bjrogg
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Looks much better!