Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on June 08, 2021, 11:59:09 am
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well,, :)
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I really hope so, I have a hard time keeping much. ;D
When I tried to string that tempered HHB sinew plains bow with 4" reflex it was nearly impossible. I like anything from 1.5" reflex to 1" string follow on my longbows.
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I am beginning to think that Scythians had found a better way to keep the reflex or setback. I was wondering why on earth they added tree bark on the belly to the much stronger oak stave. It appears that they were pre-stressing the bow limbs. In a sense reflexing is pre-stressing the limbs in the process of bracing the bow. But the limbs can be pre-stressed by adding a lath to the belly of the core and gluing them together. It's actually easier to pre-stress such limbs by binding them together while bending both, with tendon/sinew or even just leather strips. That means pre-stressed reflexing is thousands years old. This can also explain the unusual power of rather short Scythian bows.
If you want to keep the full reflex, just glue a relatively thin lath to the belly. Just a theory. I don't do such tinkering myself. But that's what they do in making full composite bows.
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I like the performance, it looks good in photos, I strive for it,,
but I am hunting with a bow that follows the string,, so for me,,there are other factors , im not sure what, that make a bow desirable for me to shoot,, I think in my old age, if the bow shoots hard enough to be effective at taking the game I am hunting, the unbraced profile, is not as important as I once thought,, but I still like to strive for holding reflex or not taking set when I make a bow,, just thinking out loud,, :)
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No. If you can hit the target accurately, it should be the only factor in my opinion. String follow, or reflex is only important to builders and people looking for a possible competetive edge, animals could care less.
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Brad and Bryan, I agree with both of you. If you have a 60# bow that has 2" of string follow that you can comfortably shoot consistently and accurately why use a 60# bow with 2" of reflex that you only shoot OK. I think it is a good idea when you begin your bow building voyage to try to achieve the best bow you can build. After some experience you'll come to the conclusion of what really matters to you.
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As a hunter, or shooter, I don’t care. As a bow maker, I do care. I want it told the reflex as though it were FG. It rarely does.
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...and rarely will, Bob. That's just the nature of the beast.
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No question but you’re right Pat. “Rarely” is being generous. I have only a few that held the shape it started with (mostly). I don’t necessarily shoot any better with them.
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I really hope so, I have a hard time keeping much. ;D
When I tried to string that tempered HHB sinew plains bow with 4" reflex it was nearly impossible. I like anything from 1.5" reflex to 1" string follow on my longbows.
4" reflex becomes nothing if you warm your bow over a small fire or heat source prior to stringing it. Also, you can use tepeliks to aid your stringing of the bow.
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I am beginning to think that Scythians had found a better way to keep the reflex or setback. I was wondering why on earth they added tree bark on the belly to the much stronger oak stave. It appears that they were pre-stressing the bow limbs. In a sense reflexing is pre-stressing the limbs in the process of bracing the bow. But the limbs can be pre-stressed by adding a lath to the belly of the core and gluing them together. It's actually easier to pre-stress such limbs by binding them together while bending both, with tendon/sinew or even just leather strips. That means pre-stressed reflexing is thousands years old. This can also explain the unusual power of rather short Scythian bows.
If you want to keep the full reflex, just glue a relatively thin lath to the belly. Just a theory. I don't do such tinkering myself. But that's what they do in making full composite bows.
I think you are on to something....
In one of the Scythian sinew-wood-horn composite bows from Yanghai, its owner had actually tied a wood plate over the horn belly piece... Making it a sinew-wood-horn-wood composite!!!
https://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm
(https://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai_files/image027.jpg)
(https://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai_files/image007.jpg)
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I would not try to brace a heated bow for any reason. Sounds like a disaster to me.
What is the "tepeliks" you are referring to? ???
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I would not try to brace a heated bow for any reason. Sounds like a disaster to me.
What is the "tepeliks" you are referring to? ???
Tepelik is the Turkish word for the curved wooden forms than are used in stringing the Turkish bows, Scythian bowyers used them as well. The bows are gently heated to temporarily reduce their stiffness and then bent on to the tepelik forms (using cordage), then the bow is strung and the tepeliks are removed.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BTxj12QWUhg/TPBGf6BoFyI/AAAAAAAAHbE/l9sXLyMbtbM/s1600/Turkish+hornbow.JPG)
See the 9:14 minute mark of this video for an extreme demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLEgELhK6I
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Overrated? Often yes. Completely without merit? No.
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Hanibal, I'm familiar with the device but I wasn't familiar with the terminology. How does the tepelik relate to Brads original question?
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Without reading the previous comments I'm gonna say it's not over rated but rather, misunderstood. If a bow holds 2 inches reflex you might be happy until you realize it started with 5, meaning 3 pulled out. But then you got to also know, is that 2 inches of held reflex immediately after unbraced or after sitting overnight.
The ideal situation is this, and this is from my own experience. If you have a shot in bow, you want it to have the same amount of reflex from the moment you unbrace to 8 hours from then. If it gains more as it sits that means the wood was over stressed and its set that is relaxing, ungood.
How much the bow retains isn't important really when it comes to efficiency. If you put 10, kept 2 and it holds 2 after ours of unbrace, ya done good.
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I would respectfully disagree with that sleek. Taken set IS important, just unavoidable. How much set and where it is located is of great importance. With your scenario above, and I paraphrase, that bow that started with 10 inches and ended with 2 inches. Would it not be better to start with 3 inches and end with 2? And if the set is inner and mid limb, your in trouble. Would it not be better to take 1” midlimb and out? My answer to both is as implied. The less set the better so far as I am concerned.
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I would respectfully disagree with that sleek. Taken set IS important, just unavoidable. How much set and where it is located is of great importance. With your scenario above, and I paraphrase, that bow that started with 10 inches and ended with 2 inches. Would it not be better to start with 3 inches and end with 2? And if the set is inner and mid limb, your in trouble. Would it not be better to take 1” midlimb and out? My answer to both is as implied. The less set the better so far as I am concerned.
To give a quick answer, induced reflex that pulled out/didn't take, and set are two different things. Your stated answer does not differentiate between the two.
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I have never experienced set in any of my bows. On the contrary, I have to keep my bows stringed at all times to prevent them from gaining reflex. FWIW I use green wood and start shooting my bows immediately. I think people season their staves and this causes them to lose compressive strength. I also have never broken a bow in my entire life.
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While I can agree that heat induced reflex will or may differ from the “natural” reflex the log/ stave started with, it doesn’t change my point. If you started with a certain amount of reflex, in either variety, I would argue it is preferable to lose less than more, and if it is preferable, then set in either variety matters.
This clown cross posted with me, and I just find nothing worth responding to in the drivel.
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Hanibal, I'm familiar with the device but I wasn't familiar with the terminology. How does the tepelik relate to Brads original question?
You can use those to bend your bow before bracing. You get a good even bend with those things, it's less stressful than bracing your bow the usual way. If OP would pre-warm his bow gently and bend it on to the tepeliks, then string, he would probably not lose much reflex to set.
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I have never experienced set in any of my bows. On the contrary, I have to keep my bows stringed at all times to prevent them from gaining reflex. FWIW I use green wood and start shooting my bows immediately. I think people season their staves and this causes them to lose compressive strength. I also have never broken a bow in my entire life.
This guy lol.
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Hanibal, I'm familiar with the device but I wasn't familiar with the terminology. How does the tepelik relate to Brads original question?
You can use those to bend your bow before bracing. You get a good even bend with those things, it's less stressful than bracing your bow the usual way. If OP would pre-warm his bow gently and bend it on to the tepeliks, then string, he would probably not lose much reflex to set.
I sincerely hope that someone new to bow building does not come across this nonsense and take it for fact. For the record, do not tiller a bow out of a green stave and expect anything other than a sponge with a string on it. Also don’t heat your bow just before bracing it. Same reason. I’m sure horn bows have properties that allows things that cannot be achieved with an all wood or a wood to wood composite. Since this is not a topic in horn bow section, it leaves much room for confusion if one does not know better.
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I sincerely hope that someone new to bow building does not come across this nonsense and take it for fact. For the record, do not tiller a bow out of a green stave and expect anything other than a sponge with a string on it.
Wow, here's what we call arrogant ignorance. The bow's power increases as the stave loses moisture content. It doesn't matter if you allow that to happen in log form or bow form, it's always going to dry (albeit faster in the tillered bow).
You WANT the bow to start off spongey. That's how you avoid set.
Also don’t heat your bow just before bracing it. Same reason. I’m sure horn bows have properties that allows things that cannot be achieved with an all wood or a wood to wood composite. Since this is not a topic in horn bow section, it leaves much room for confusion if one does not know better.
I assure you there's no magic properties in hornbows. Wood bows regain their stiffness once they've returned to normal temperatures. If you knew better you could give reason for your superstitions. Instead, you're just here to be a contrarian.
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?
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I have never experienced set in any of my bows. On the contrary, I have to keep my bows stringed at all times to prevent them from gaining reflex. FWIW I use green wood and start shooting my bows immediately. I think people season their staves and this causes them to lose compressive strength. I also have never broken a bow in my entire life.
Ummmmm...... excuse you? :fp :fp :fp (lol)
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Sounds like Hannibal is talking about Asiatic horn bows.
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Sounds like Hannibal is talking about Asiatic horn bows.
Yes, but you can do this with wood bows as well. You're still stringing the wood bow, just doing it in a way that reduces concentrated strain by providing the arc support. Tepeliks can still be used for wood bows.
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I sincerely hope that someone new to bow building does not come across this nonsense and take it for fact. For the record, do not tiller a bow out of a green stave and expect anything other than a sponge with a string on it.
Wow, here's what we call arrogant ignorance. The bow's power increases as the stave loses moisture content. It doesn't matter if you allow that to happen in log form or bow form, it's always going to dry (albeit faster in the tillered bow).
You WANT the bow to start off spongey. That's how you avoid set.
Also don’t heat your bow just before bracing it. Same reason. I’m sure horn bows have properties that allows things that cannot be achieved with an all wood or a wood to wood composite. Since this is not a topic in horn bow section, it leaves much room for confusion if one does not know better.
I assure you there's no magic properties in hornbows. Wood bows regain their stiffness once they've returned to normal temperatures. If you knew better you could give reason for your superstitions. Instead, you're just here to be a contrarian.
Son, I am not arrogant, ignorant, nor a contrarian. I have some actual hands on experience, of which pales in comparison to many others in this board. I’m not sure what your deal is, but it gets old. I have a notion that if we were to have this conversation in person, you would not be so eager to call me arrogant and ignorant. Folks ought to treat people with the same respect as they would looking them in the eye. And yes, I would call the nonsense you were spewing false if you were standing in front of me.
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I sincerely hope that someone new to bow building does not come across this nonsense and take it for fact. For the record, do not tiller a bow out of a green stave and expect anything other than a sponge with a string on it.
Wow, here's what we call arrogant ignorance. The bow's power increases as the stave loses moisture content. It doesn't matter if you allow that to happen in log form or bow form, it's always going to dry (albeit faster in the tillered bow).
You WANT the bow to start off spongey. That's how you avoid set.
Also don’t heat your bow just before bracing it. Same reason. I’m sure horn bows have properties that allows things that cannot be achieved with an all wood or a wood to wood composite. Since this is not a topic in horn bow section, it leaves much room for confusion if one does not know better.
I assure you there's no magic properties in hornbows. Wood bows regain their stiffness once they've returned to normal temperatures. If you knew better you could give reason for your superstitions. Instead, you're just here to be a contrarian.
Son, I am not arrogant, ignorant, nor a contrarian. I have some actual hands on experience, of which pales in comparison to many others in this board. I’m not sure what your deal is, but it gets old. I have a notion that if we were to have this conversation in person, you would not be so eager to call me arrogant and ignorant. Folks ought to treat people with the same respect as they would looking them in the eye. And yes, I would call the nonsense you were spewing false if you were standing in front of me.
*actual hands-on *BAD* experience.
I honestly laugh at most of the "experienced" people here. Breaking +50 inch bows that don't even pull 27"? Lifting splinters on staves that weren't even violated? Making bows out of staves that look like an Irish shillelagh? HOw does that even happen? I've never broken a bow in my life and don't even make bows longer than 35 inches anymore. I'll be combing through your post history soon.
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Brad. My apologies for the direction your thread has been taken. You posted a good and relevant question, and it has been taken over. My opinion on held reflex is that it does matter in statistics. Speed, string tension, trajectory etc. I don’t think that those things necessarily translate to longevity and enjoyable shooting, it also doesn’t mean that they don’t have those attributes. I just think a less stressed limb profile leads to a longer life all things being equal, and super high early string tension isn’t as enjoyable for me to shoot for a long period. It takes a toll on my fingers lol.
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I would not try to brace a heated bow for any reason. Sounds like a disaster to me.
What is the "tepeliks" you are referring to? ???
Tepelik is the Turkish word for the curved wooden forms than are used in stringing the Turkish bows, Scythian bowyers used them as well. The bows are gently heated to temporarily reduce their stiffness and then bent on to the tepelik forms (using cordage), then the bow is strung and the tepeliks are removed.
Wrong you do NOT heat a hornbow before bracing......you use techniquue to overcome the reflex. Heating the sal before stringing would simply lead to a semi-permanent set and loss of overall reflex.
If you don't believe me then ask Adam Karpowzi.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BTxj12QWUhg/TPBGf6BoFyI/AAAAAAAAHbE/l9sXLyMbtbM/s1600/Turkish+hornbow.JPG)
See the 9:14 minute mark of this video for an extreme demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLEgELhK6I
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I sincerely hope that someone new to bow building does not come across this nonsense and take it for fact. For the record, do not tiller a bow out of a green stave and expect anything other than a sponge with a string on it.
Wow, here's what we call arrogant ignorance. The bow's power increases as the stave loses moisture content. It doesn't matter if you allow that to happen in log form or bow form, it's always going to dry (albeit faster in the tillered bow).
You WANT the bow to start off spongey. That's how you avoid set.
Also don’t heat your bow just before bracing it. Same reason. I’m sure horn bows have properties that allows things that cannot be achieved with an all wood or a wood to wood composite. Since this is not a topic in horn bow section, it leaves much room for confusion if one does not know better.
I assure you there's no magic properties in hornbows. Wood bows regain their stiffness once they've returned to normal temperatures. If you knew better you could give reason for your superstitions. Instead, you're just here to be a contrarian.
Son, I am not arrogant, ignorant, nor a contrarian. I have some actual hands on experience, of which pales in comparison to many others in this board. I’m not sure what your deal is, but it gets old. I have a notion that if we were to have this conversation in person, you would not be so eager to call me arrogant and ignorant. Folks ought to treat people with the same respect as they would looking them in the eye. And yes, I would call the nonsense you were spewing false if you were standing in front of me.
*actual hands-on *BAD* experience.
I honestly laugh at most of the "experienced" people here. Breaking +50 inch bows that don't even pull 27"? Lifting splinters on staves that weren't even violated? Making bows out of staves that look like an Irish shillelagh? HOw does that even happen? I've never broken a bow in my life and don't even make bows longer than 35 inches anymore. I'll be combing through your post history soon.
Please do comb my posts. You will find examples of mistakes made as well as successes. You will find many questions made by me to the collective knowledge of this forum. And you will see a handful of successful bows and a few failures that I’ve made. When you get done combing, please take that opportunity to post your own work, successes and failures that you have had.
This group took me from making a poor dog of a self bow to being able to make a pretty decent albeit plain self bow, that I am happy with.
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I would not try to brace a heated bow for any reason. Sounds like a disaster to me.
What is the "tepeliks" you are referring to? ???
Tepelik is the Turkish word for the curved wooden forms than are used in stringing the Turkish bows, Scythian bowyers used them as well. The bows are gently heated to temporarily reduce their stiffness and then bent on to the tepelik forms (using cordage), then the bow is strung and the tepeliks are removed.
Wrong you do NOT heat a hornbow before bracing......you use techniquue to overcome the reflex. Heating the sal before stringing would simply lead to a semi-permanent set and loss of overall reflex.
If you don't believe me then ask Adam Karpowzi.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BTxj12QWUhg/TPBGf6BoFyI/AAAAAAAAHbE/l9sXLyMbtbM/s1600/Turkish+hornbow.JPG)
See the 9:14 minute mark of this video for an extreme demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLEgELhK6I
Er, probably not, since it was Adam Karpowixs who actually told me that.
Now, ladies and gentleman, for the coup de grace of bownarra's reputation:
From Kuk Sool Goong: Korean Martial Art Archery - Page 15 (R. Barry Harmon)
https://books.google.com/books?id=wQBNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr9JCr9InxAhWSWM0KHcQlC28Q6AEwAHoECAMQAw
The modern composite bows required no special preparation before shooting; all one had to do was to brace it and begin shooting. Where as, the horn bows required being heated up and shaped for a very careful bracing ( stringing) process; it also had to be adjusted and frequently readjusted while shooting.
From With a Bended Bow: Archery in Medieval and Renaissance Europe - pafe 106 (Erik Roth)
https://books.google.com/books?id=sveaDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT106&dq=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr9JCr9InxAhWSWM0KHcQlC28Q6AEwAXoECAwQAw
A Saracen treatment for composite flight bows involved heating them over a dull charcoal fire for a half hour until they were warm, not hot. They were then cooled for an hour before shooting. Heating would seem ro be a clear benefit both before and after a bow is completed.
From Archery Volume 37 - page 7
https://books.google.com/books?id=WZxYAAAAYAAJ&q=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&dq=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr9JCr9InxAhWSWM0KHcQlC28Q6AEwA3oECAcQAw
Before the tournament , hours are spent bracing the bows , heating them on the small charcoal fires
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I´ve found two different answers, if a hornbow is heated while being strung.
Adam Karpowicz writes that the hornbow is not heated when braced with tepeliks. The bow must be unbraced before correcting the allignment with heat in order to not lose reflex in the bending area.
This korean video however shows that the allignment is corrected with heat while the bow is braced at 40:00 minutes. But it seems that the bowyer only heats the comparatively stiff outer parts of the limbs and not the main bending area. In addition to that a leather strap is bound bethween the limb and the string in order not to loose any reflex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZBY1rlxu0
COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION if holding reflex is overrated on wooden bows, I ask myself how we can distinguish bethween the following two possible reasons for this loss:
1. The heated reflex of the limb is only "pulled out" without damaging the wood on the belly (deformation, but no set?).
2. The reflex is reduced because the wood cells on the belly are crushed (set).
The second scenario would be worse of course, because the crushed wood cells might increase hysteresis. Does anyone have an idea how we can distinguish bethween those two?
lonbow
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all correct about the hornbows lonbow :) in addition you can balance a hornbow by gently heating the bending stronger limb when braced - you will loose reflex instead of removing material.
COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION :)
Reflex -technically seen - shows the operation-level of a bow; the more reflex the better the energy storage. It's off course only one factor in the equation of a "good" bow. For me personally an important one. I didn't know how to distingish between "deformation" and "set" to use your terminology, therefore I personally don't... Also I think I can undo "set" with heat ;)
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^ All unsourced misinfo.
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Does not happen often but when it does its a gem. For hunting if I can get a string on somethins gonna get an arra put in it. Does it matter if bows hold 3' of reflex. . .Not a damn bit. Think the SB with the most kills I have (prolly 20-25) is a sting follow HHB with low string tension at brace. It's a killer and all those whitetails dont know it has No reflex at all.
Here's a new Gem that I put 4" reflex in and after keeping it strung for several hours and 50 arrows it hold 3" every time. It's a killah!
HH~
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For me, the shear beauty of a bow bending slightly away from the handle, like the picture HH just posted, is worth striving for. I don't think its overrated. When bowyers describe their bows, they mention the length, the weight, and the set. So what do you think we should replace the 'set' statistic with?
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Also, there's no coup de grace on this website. Nobody is killing anyone else. If you search through most of these folks posting history, you will find that friendliness and sharing knowledge and experience with a positive attitude is the norm.
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There is a coup de grace. It's called being banned.
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Does not happen often but when it does its a gem. For hunting if I can get a string on somethins gonna get an arra put in it. Does it matter if bows hold 3' of reflex. . .Not a damn bit. Think the SB with the most kills I have (prolly 20-25) is a sting follow HHB with low string tension at brace. It's a killer and all those whitetails dont know it has No reflex at all.
Here's a new Gem that I put 4" reflex in and after keeping it strung for several hours and 50 arrows it hold 3" every time. It's a killah!
HH~
Fine looking bow hedge.
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Are we going to ban people from talking about bow making if they cannot make bows themselves because of disability?
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Where am i? :fp
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I think there’s also a work trade off where it’s more difficult and more effort to maintain a high amount of reflex versus a smaller amount. Even with increased energy storage, the increased mass needed to maintain reflex may be a negative trade off. The balance of factors within bow performance is so fickle that there doesn’t seem to be a clear winner at this point. I think of Arvin’s flight bow with fairly minimal reflex. Surely a bow could be made with more reflex but would it be as good? I agree with sleek that low set is definitely a bigger factor than overall reflex. He and Steve have proven their ideas with their flight shooting prowess.
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Well this got heated.😁 For me set is dead wood no matter where it is in the wood bow or any bow. I am convinced the fastest wood bow in the world would have as much reflex behind the handle with little or no set. The more reflex you have in this application the better. That being said my hunting bow that has taken a 500 pound animal has 3” of set from setting in a stand strung all day. Happy hunting. Arvin
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I gotta agree on the reflex importance and the sweet shooting accurate stroke of a flat or slightly string followed bow for hunting.
Although when I shoot a highly reflexed bow long enough and get accustomed to it it is just as accurate as the flat or string followed bow but with extra punch.
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Are we going to ban people from talking about bow making if they cannot make bows themselves because of disability?
If they trash people who do make bows, sure. But Tom claims to make bows.
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I like the question. I too strive for maintaining reflex in my bows with minimal limb mass. It seems to be a pretty good indicator of how well I designed and tillered a particular bow, but I will admit... I shoot a flat profile, or slightly string followed bow more accurately, easier.
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The wood yer using has the say in good reflex. Can burn in, fire harden , temper 6-8 times, the wood in that particular stave only be as good as god made it. When ya get a good tree , you’ll know it.
HH~
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Not over rated at all. It is what I strive for on each and, every bow that I make. I am experienced enough now that my bows turn out even ,or reflex up to one to two inches. That is my goal. I have a few that hold nearly three inches of reflex, but many that are hanging on my wall have up to 3 inches of set from my early days of bow building, and do OK.
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While I can agree that heat induced reflex will or may differ from the “natural” reflex the log/ stave started with, it doesn’t change my point. If you started with a certain amount of reflex, in either variety, I would argue it is preferable to lose less than more, and if it is preferable, then set in either variety matters.
This clown cross posted with me, and I just find nothing worth responding to in the drivel.
I hope my reply didn't come across as rude. I was literally just giving the shortest answer I could as I was in a hurry. My answer was only valid towards induced reflex as that's what I always deal with. With natural reflex you would be totally correct.
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Good discussion to read through for a newbie, thanks guys.
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Don’t sweat it sleek. I never thought for a moment it was rude. And besides that, I’m old school. The school taught my generation that “sticks and stones...” yada yada. Just a friendly debate on a topic that could only interest a small gaggle of bow makers.
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I personally like to keep as much of the heat induced reflex as I can. As a matter of fact this is something I strive for whether I'm making a static or a longbow and I rate it's importance about even with proper tiller.
I use to not be able to manage to keep much as I would always overstress my limbs during the tillering process. But I keep getting better with each bow. I like to try and tweek my designs just a bit and see what happens along the way but a fast, well tillered bow with as little set as I can manage is always my goal.
Speed is a personal thing as to what each bowyer considers fast. But everytime I began a new one I always dream of a speed demon faster and easier to shoot than any bow I made yet, and although I am let down from time to time I really enjoy the learning process.
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Badger said it best, and excuse my Steve if I am quoting you wrong. "Give nothing up to set". At that time my bows were taking set, and through a chrony I just couldn't get Tim Bakers criteria of 100 plus bow poundage with a 10 GPP arrow for a decent self bow.... which would equate to 140 fps with my 25 inch draw length. My numbers would be 133,135, etc. 6,7 8 fps below what they should have been . Now my bows are 10 to 20 fps above that number building bows with no set, and up to two inches of reflex. It took me more years than it should have, but thanks to the guys on this forum I finally made it.
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I think Baker's rule is meant for a standard 28" draw.
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If ya cant handle alittle set which is going to happen if you put a bunch of arrows thru a wood bow, ya better just back it or yer going to have that "gee, I think I just ate a bug look on yer face".
H~
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Does not happen often but when it does its a gem. For hunting if I can get a string on somethins gonna get an arra put in it. Does it matter if bows hold 3' of reflex. . .Not a damn bit. Think the SB with the most kills I have (prolly 20-25) is a sting follow HHB with low string tension at brace. It's a killer and all those whitetails dont know it has No reflex at all.
Here's a new Gem that I put 4" reflex in and after keeping it strung for several hours and 50 arrows it hold 3" every time. It's a killah!
HH~
You be bad!!!
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I too try to keep the reflexed profile, but some of my favorite hunting bows have an inch and a half of string follow. If a bow is quiet, accurate and hits hard enough to get the work done-then it’s a good bow in my book. I think that sometimes the desire for speed and power overshadows the subtle advantages of a bow with slight string follow. You may not want to take her to the dance, but when nobody is looking - she is probably more fun than a beauty queen. ;D
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To me it's an indicator as to just how well I tillered the bow of the design I chose and the type of wood used.A skill seeking more refinement.Some pursue it and some don't.
Pushing the envelope is the only way to achieve that.
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I don’t think it is necessary for a good shooting, hunting bow and some might even find they prefer shooting something with a little string follow.
For myself with my short draw I really prefer about 3 or 4” of reflex. Some short not tremendously radical static recurves. Start out with about 1” reflex over entire limb and hold as much as I can.
If I can find the wood to accomplish this I usually have a bow that fits me well. I like the early string tension from the reflex. It works well with my short draw .
I don’t like giving up anything. Of course I’m pretty sure I’m going to with every build. I’ve eaten a few bugs before. I think set tells us a lot about our wood and or tillering. Most wood is going to take a little.
I think keeping it to a minimum and probably more importantly keeping it from continuing after the bow is well shoot in are things I strive for. Not things that are always accomplished or 100%. Necessary, but things I try to accomplish
Bjrogg
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Don't think I have ever seen a bow of the month, or flight bow etc with string follow with may be the exception of an English long bow. Bowyers have an image of what they want a finished bow to look ,and shoot like. To much string follow is not one of them. God knows I have made my share of them. Still have about 3 dozen of them from my earlier days of building bows that do OK. Smooth drawing,and fun to shoot.... and will kill.
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+1 Howard, A good shooter can't be beat...Kinda like a pair of broke in boots...
Don
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Not necessary at all for a good hunting bow as has been proved for centuries. I think once you get used to that early string tension and snappiness in a bow it is very hard to shoot a bow that doesn't have it.
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Dont really care for eArly string weight. In fact my target rigs i usually take heavy preload off the bow. Just me but early SW and a short bow, no thanks. For a short armed fella OK , grab what you can get.
HH~
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I like to make my bows as fast as possible with reflex and it brings a smile to my face when a arrow leaves the bow with such speed, however I will say some of my favorite bows to fling arrows at a target in the backyard are lighter draw self bows with normal string follow. It's more relaxing not to be around all that tension of high early draw.
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Yep. I am always proud to see one unbraced and see it holding reflex. It is a testament to good tillering but it is hard to dislike the sweet shooting, soft send off and quiet accuracy of a bow with a little string follow. I think the great Howard Hill (also from Alabama lol) said some good things about a string follow bow, but I don’t remember the quote. I think it was about their accuracy.