Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => At the Forge => Topic started by: Fox on May 12, 2021, 12:18:29 am
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I know this is a broad subject that may be too difficult to type out... and this also may not be the right form for the question.... but what steal would you recommend? 1095 and 5160 seem like good choices.... is there anyone willing to type out there heat treat method for these steels or other good beginner steels ?
I’m using a charcoal forge and am slightly limited by that :)
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I have lots log truck leaf spring but I have no idea how to cut usable pieces from it :-\
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Not super experienced here, but here’s my opinion. If you’re buying steel, hands down 1080 / 1084. Super easy. 1095, I’ve had issues with blades cracking in the quench more so than any other steel I’ve used and am not smart enough to figure out why. I’m a big fan of using found ( junk ) steel making knives for myself. I just cut small pieces of whatever steel I’m wanting to use and see what it likes the best in regards to temp and quench. If you have a lot of whatever steel you are testing, keep notes and label the steel so you know in the future. Angle grinder with a cutoff wheel will get your leaf springs cut up but be careful as the wheels can blow up and it ain’t fun when they do. I believe that lenox and maybe others make a thin cutoff wheels made of metal and diamond abrasive or something similar that is not supposed to blow up if bound up like the fiber abrasive wheels do. Been meaning to check those out.
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I have lots log truck leaf spring but I have no idea how to cut usable pieces from it :-\
An angle grinder and a stack of cut off discs will work on pretty much any steel you can find. It isn't fast or particularly pretty, but it will get the job done for the lowest cost going. The only other way to deal with it is with an oxy/acetylene torch and that leaves a fair amount of slag cleanup to deal with.
Mark
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You can do some research on each steel you're interested. The problem with higher alloy steels is that temp and soak times are critical to getting everything in to solution. There's really nothing too fancy, just time and temperature....but I highly doubt you get it just right with a charcoal forge until you gain alot of experience.
1084/1080 is hypoeutectic, so carbon content is not over saturated, meaning you really only need to get to critical temp and quench. Don't need a long soak, and it's very forgiving.
5160 is also hypoeutectic.
1095 is hypereutectic, has more carbon than naturally wants to dissolve in the steel. Have to force it with specified soak temp and time.
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You can do some research on each steel you're interested. The problem with higher alloy steels is that temp and soak times are critical to getting everything in to solution. There's really nothing too fancy, just time and temperature....but I highly doubt you get it just right with a charcoal forge until you gain alot of experience.
1084/1080 is hypoeutectic, so carbon content is not over saturated, meaning you really only need to get to critical temp and quench. Don't need a long soak, and it's very forgiving.
5160 is also hypoeutectic.
1095 is hypereutectic, has more carbon than naturally wants to dissolve in the steel. Have to force it with specified soak temp and time.
Thanks, mesophilic That's some really helpful info! yeah, I started reading about the difficulties of soaking accurately without a gas forge. I Think ill try 5160... and maybe 1084 or 1080. Is there much of a difference between 1084 or 5160 from 1095s as far as edge retention and whatnot?
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Your best bet is to fo online and look up Alpha Knife Supply they have heat treat for all of there steel listed, and if you buy steel I would recommend 80CRV2 or 1084 same steel different name. Remember yellow hot is too hot !
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Thanks, mesophilic That's some really helpful info! yeah, I started reading about the difficulties of soaking accurately without a gas forge. I Think ill try 5160... and maybe 1084 or 1080. Is there much of a difference between 1084 or 5160 from 1095s as far as edge retention and whatnot?
In your search engine type "5160 vs 1084" You should see some threads from bladeforums where they discuss alot of good info.
In my experience, 1084 gets sharper but 5160 is more impact resistant and keeps a working edge longer. Of course this will vary depending on the heat treatment and edge geometry. 1095 gets harder and sharper than 1084 but not as impact resistant as 5160, but again, depends on the factors.
My all time favorite is 52100, but that requires a professional level heat treatment.
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Never knew their was so much to heat treating, I mostly use old files and just bring them up to non magnetic , quench , clean up and put them in the over on 375 for 2 hours, they seem to turn out nice. guess i may need to do a little more research , good info,thanks. :)
Pappy
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Never knew their was so much to heat treating, I mostly use old files and just bring them up to non magnetic , quench , clean up and put them in the over on 375 for 2 hours, they seem to turn out nice. guess i may need to do a little more research , good info,thanks. :)
Pappy
every steel got a recipe..
just like venison chili.
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You can do some research on each steel you're interested. The problem with higher alloy steels is that temp and soak times are critical to getting everything in to solution. There's really nothing too fancy, just time and temperature....but I highly doubt you get it just right with a charcoal forge until you gain alot of experience.
1084/1080 is hypoeutectic, so carbon content is not over saturated, meaning you really only need to get to critical temp and quench. Don't need a long soak, and it's very forgiving.
5160 is also hypoeutectic.
1095 is hypereutectic, has more carbon than naturally wants to dissolve in the steel. Have to force it with specified soak temp and time.
Thanks, mesophilic That's some really helpful info! yeah, I started reading about the difficulties of soaking accurately without a gas forge. I Think ill try 5160... and maybe 1084 or 1080. Is there much of a difference between 1084 or 5160 from 1095s as far as edge retention and whatnot?
My personal opinion is that any noticeable difference in those steels would not be easily achieved by a relatively inexperienced Smith in a charcoal forge, which is why I would lean towards the simplest.
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Never knew their was so much to heat treating, I mostly use old files and just bring them up to non magnetic , quench , clean up and put them in the over on 375 for 2 hours, they seem to turn out nice. guess i may need to do a little more research , good info,thanks. :)
Pappy
Wait till we introduce you to air hardening steels and plate quenching ;D
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You guys are on the ball, :) think I will just watch and lessen and stick to my old USA Nicholson files for now :) Love hearing it though, who knows, maybe I will learn and remember some of it. :) The more I hear the more I understand that you don't just fly by the seat of you pants like I do most of the time. ??? ;) :)
Pappy
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You guys are on the ball, :) think I will just watch and lessen and stick to my old USA Nicholson files for now :) Love hearing it though, who knows, maybe I will learn and remember some of it. :) The more I hear the more I understand that you don't just fly by the seat of you pants like I do most of the time. ??? ;) :)
Pappy
(lol) (lol) (lol) Yeah I’m learning that I think there’s more to steel then there is to bow making :fp
All the knifes I’ve made so far are with the method you just described pappy .... there not bad... what is your thoughts on your knifes edge retention and whatnot? Do you use your knifes for everything? Or do you have a professionaly made knife you use for skinning carving etc ?
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Thanks for all the great info guys... really helpfull :)
I’m thinking I’ll play around with the spring steel for a while but maybe will eventually buy some 1084
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Thanks for all the great info guys... really helpfull :)
I’m thinking I’ll play around with the spring steel for a while but maybe will eventually buy some 1084
That’s a good plan. You have a lot of the springs, beat on em and learn.
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:)
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I use them for everything, gave several away and they are happy as I am with the edge they hold, and old friend of mine that does a lot of knife sharpening said they feel like as he sharpens the old Case xx fairly easy to sharpen but hold a good edge, not to hard is what I like.😉 Pappy
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I use 1095 and have for over 20 years. It is not the absolute best steel out there, but it is a good steel.
My recipe for heat treatment is essentially what Wayne Goddard recommends for a simple steel. I work in batches of anywhere from 4 to a dozen. I'll give my recipe here:
First, you want to normalize it. I do this twice. (This is a matter of heating it slowly and evenly until it won't stick to a magnet, then taking it just a tiny bit further. Some people will melt salt on the blade surface, but I haven't tried that. Then air cool it. I just hold it in the tongs and let it cool until all the glow is gone with my shop lights turned off. It will still be hot enough to burn you, but I go back into the fire and repeat, then lay it on a soft fire brick to cool to room temperature. The goal of normalizing is essentially stress relief. It reduces likelihood of warping in the quench.
Before I harden any blades, I heat my oil. I use a goop quench made of canola oil, bacon fat, and candle wax. It is a soft solid at room temperature (like Crisco), but I heat it up until it is nice and liquid. This is about 130 degrees. I just use a railroad spike, heat it up in the forge and put it in the goop until cool. Repeat a total of three times (you need to check your own quench container, don't take this as gospel - it is only true of my setup).
Then the sexy part! Hardening! Slowly and carefully heat the blade up to nonmagnetic. I like to have low light so I can see the color in the steel. I always check with a magnet. I know some people claim they can tell just by looking, but I'm not able to get the consistent results I want that way. Once it is not magnetic, I keep it moving through the fire until I'm certain the color is the same through the whole blade. This is easy to see by eye. But be really careful about the tip. It is super easy to get it a lot hotter than the rest of the blade. This is a matter of practice, I find. Get to know your own forge for best results.
Now, you have about one second to get that steel under 400 degrees. Get it in the oil. I quench edge down, personally. I like to keep the spine of the blade up out of the oil so it doesn't get hard with the edge. Once the glow is gone from the spine, I put the whole blade in the oil and let it cool for a few seconds (about 20-30 seconds for a smaller blade, up to a minute for larger blades).
Pull it out and wipe the oil off with a shop rag. A good hardening will also normally have a lot of grey steel surface where the quench scale is popped off. Underheating it will leave the whole surface black. Again, as before, this is in my quenchant in my shop. I have a sword quench tank and the oil (mix of corn oil and canola oil) doesn't pop off the scale as reliably, so don't take it as gospel. Also, an overheated blade will still pop the scale, so it is an indication that I got the temperature *at least* hot enough.
Do the rest of your blades to this point.
Now, with shop rags, work to get as much of the oil off as you can. Really wipe them down. You don't want burned oil stinking up your kitchen when you temper. I used to wash them with Dawn detergent, but don't find a real improvement from that, so I quit doing it.
I wrap my hardened steel blades in aluminum foil, loosely, then place them on a cookie sheet. The idea is that it evens the heat out as it reaches the blades. This could be wasted effort, but I don't believe it hurts.
Into the oven and temper for an hour. Then air cool and bake for another hour.
For 1095, I do 400 degrees for knives, 500 for swords. For the spring steel I enjoy forging, I use 375 for the knives. Known 5160 gets 475 for big choppers.
This is, as I said, my method in my shop. I like the results for my blades. Your shop will be different, so only treat this as a suggested starting point, not a gospel.
-Patrick
Check the edge hardness with an old chainsaw file. It will knock off some scale, but should not be able to bite into the steel itself.
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Buy a chunk of 1084. You'll love it. So much less work than truck springs and so much more predictable. Save the text springs for froes and those kind of projects that are not so heat treat critical
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Thanks so much for typing up your heat treat method mr woolery!