Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on May 10, 2021, 09:00:27 pm
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I built this locust bow in 2003. It was my best locust build. Note the cut in shelf. I haven't done that in years. One of the tip overlays popped off years ago and I never fixed it or shot it again. Recently, as I was going through my bow collection I saw this one and wondered about sinew backing it. It is 55 1/2" t/t, is just over 2" at it's widest and draws 47#@24". The belly had developed some very fine frets at mid limb on both limbs but not bad. I thought about adding recurves to the end of the limbs but decided to just leave them straight. I will repair the tip overlay then I think I will sinew back it.
Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/PbBO8SB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OB0XsPG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D6SoqSp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/h8WJPEC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QoN4Uva.jpg)
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I can tell it is 18 years old because the Osage tip looks like walnut.
Nice lines.
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mmmm that is so pretty
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The chocolate color of old Osage... you gotta love it!
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Surprising it got frets being so wide. Beautiful shape.
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Nice! New tip and sinew, she'll be as good as vintage wine!
Hawkdancer
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yep,, nice project,, :)
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I can't if you trapped the back or not. It is a good practice with Black locust. The one's that I have made successfully all have trapped backs.
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Thanks guys. I'm sorta excited about getting this old bow back in working order.
Ryan, frets are typical for me and locust. Like I said this one was one of my best locust bows.
Bassman, no trapping on this one. The limbs are so thin and it was probably before I knew what trapping was anyway. ;)
Old locust puts on a nice patina like osage and mulberry.
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Pat, I have one from 1994,, it has few frets that I did when I was in a hurry tillering,, lucky they have not gotten worse, and the bow still shoots just like it did,, its a beautiful great shooting wood, excited to see yours come back to life,,
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I removed the handle wrap and scraped and sanded off the old finish today.
(https://i.imgur.com/obEPftE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/so8sYk3.jpg)
...as you can see the belly developed a concavity over the years. I use the goose neck scraper for areas like this. I observed that the limb with the frets had the most concavity to it. Whether there is a connection I don't know.
(https://i.imgur.com/1CP8Xb7.jpg)
Then I used heat to remove the remaining tip overlay. I'm not sure what glue I used but once it was heated up the overlay lifted right off. I'm thinking I used gel super glue.
(https://i.imgur.com/i2WpkpK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qJysRgW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zqWYbZw.jpg)
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After scraping and sanding the whole bow I clamped one limb to a reflex form and laid the heat to it. I'll check it a little later and work on the other limb.
(https://i.imgur.com/FqarBDW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oTX0bbJ.jpg)
More to come...
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thanks for sharing...it's one of my favorite woods too. :OK
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Neat
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Look forward to seeing how the sinew backing goes. Love seeing these older selfbows! Good luck
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I took the bow off the form this morning. It didn't keep much reflex but it did even out the limbs a bit and added a good belly tempering. I also added lemonwood tip overlays. I used TBIII for the overlays. I was gonna use Weldwood Plastic Resin but it had become a brick in the Ball jar I had it stored in. It must have been humid the day I put it up. Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/WZ8aW6x.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KYT1ZHw.jpg)
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Excited to see how it turns out!
(-P
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that looks great, I have a friend getting ready to revive a osage bow,,, this is really helping inspire him, thanks for sharing,, B
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I got the tips reshaped and string grooves cut in.
(https://i.imgur.com/FMIUvRw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eyPw7bf.jpg)
...and what good are string grooves without a string so I low braced the bow and will let it sweat for a few hours.
(https://i.imgur.com/KyJ09XO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wXUov1l.jpg)
It was surprisingly strong although I didn't weigh it with a scale I did pull it a little just to see. I want to sweat, exercise and reeducate the bow to bend before adding the sinew.
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Pat - I am curious - if you sinew back it ... and it already has belly frets, are you not risking making these worse by having a back that is now stronger in tension than the belly? Or is sinew more forgiving that this? Or is Locust just a wood that frets don’t seem to matter so much?
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Tommy, for me, locust just frets. I'm sure others have had different experiences. I've heard that a sinew backing relieves compression stresses. I've been thinking of sinew backing this bow for many years and finally getting around to it. It probably wouldn't have survived as a selfbow.
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I'm getting set up to start the sinew backing. After being up all night while our dogs ran bears off of their territory I'm just not in the right mind frame to get started with this. I still have to prep the bow and get the sinew divided up into usable bundles, hydrating the glue in the crock pot and whatever before I start but today just ain't the day.
I've set up the bow pulled into reflex. I've used this method before with good results. I'm using a strip of sinew to pull the handle down to the base while the tips are up on blocks. While sinewing I'll just sinew over the hold down sinew and cut it free when the backing sinew sets up. Here are a few pics of the set up...
(https://i.imgur.com/eERO1Ib.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GvHLtV4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YUerEy0.jpg)
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I got the first layer of sinew on today. Once I got all my supplies close at hand I plugged in the crock pot, added water and floated a stainless bowl with the hydrating glue. While sinewing I keep a bowl of warm water and a damp towel handy to clean glue from my hands as I apply it. The hide glue can get quite sticky. Then I took the bow to the kitchen sink and scrubbed it with hot water and Dawn dish soap...(https://i.imgur.com/3UTLY9y.jpg)
...then rinsed it with boiling water...
(https://i.imgur.com/tpjEPH7.jpg)
...I reattached it to the form with the sinew strand and sized the bows back 2 times over about 30 minutes, from tip to tip across the handle...
(https://i.imgur.com/YS9U7fM.jpg)
...then started laying the sinew. I hydrate the sinew in warm water first, grab a small bundle of sinew, shake the excess water off and dip it in the hide glue. Once it is saturated well with glue I squeegee off the excess glue with my fingers and lay it down the center of both limbs starting at the handle and work out to the tips. Then I fill in along both limbs trying to use equal amounts of sinew for both limbs.
Here's the sinew going across the handle first...
(https://i.imgur.com/sGTGYiO.jpg)
...then filing in along both limbs...
(https://i.imgur.com/oIwonEa.jpg)
...from tip to tip
(https://i.imgur.com/knZdhhJ.jpg?1)
Some of the sinew I'm using is relatively short(4" to 6") so the application is a bit rough so I have wrapped the limbs with strips of old flannel shirt. This should compress the wet sinew and help smooth out the surface. I'll take the wrap off tomorrow, check the sinew coverage and fill in the bare spots with sinew. Then the waiting really begins.
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looking great,,, (-P
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Enjoying this, Pat.
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Thanks guys.
After 2 days of drying I went back this morning to "filled in the blanks", areas that needed a little more sinew. I first gave the entire back a fresh sizing coat then added the needed sinew. Once that dries I'll take more pics, then she'll get put up for a long curing session. I'll check her out after a month with more pics and updates. For now, I'll keep her in out utility room, the room in our house with the most constant temp and humidity. After I crank up the dehumidifier in the basement I'll put her down there for a good, long drying session.
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This is what I added this morning...
(https://i.imgur.com/eFYVDy1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oEU5wK9.jpg)
...to be continued...
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This is great to see Pat. Those tip overlays look awesome! Thanks for the detailed pi’s and description of laying down the sinew
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Wow, Pat! That is a very interesting project! Jawge
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George, after sitting in the utility room for so many years I thought I'd bring "Phoenix" back to life to see how she'd perform under a new moniker. I cut my teeth on locust but never mastered it.
Thanks, Will.
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What a fun project. Can’t wait to see what this thing tunes up for a be.
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I enjoy rejuvenating old bows as much as making new ones. I like this thread very much.
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Thanks guys. It has been fun and I'm excited to see how she turns out but it will be a while before I can try.
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Tomorrow, June 2 will be 2 weeks since I sinewed "Phoenix" so I'll release her from the form and see what we've got. I know I will have to retiller and reduce weight so that's when we'll really know what we've got. :OK :BB
I'll post pics.
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She's been released. From here...
(https://i.imgur.com/TFmaujT.jpg)
to here...
(https://i.imgur.com/N7O0idR.jpg)
you can see she didn't hold much of the added reflex but still enough to improve her...I hope. I'll let her rest for a few days before I begin retillering and weight reduction.
Here is how I laid the sinew backing over the sinew strap hold down. This is right after cutting the strap...
(https://i.imgur.com/Qq25XHQ.jpg)
...also, while reworking this bow I realized why she fretted. I made the belly flat without following the back's ups and downs and where knots or swells on the back were overpowered the thinner areas between them. Some bow woods might not have fretted but with locust if there is a varience in thickness it will fret where the limb is thinner.
and after the tag ends are cut flush with the sinew backing.
(https://i.imgur.com/0QEq7KQ.jpg)
...more to come...
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Looks good Pat. I have an old osage bow, the first one I made, that I want to try breathing new life into with sinew. Following your progress to see how your bow comes out. Thank you for sharing.
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Tomorrow, June 2 will be 2 weeks since I sinewed "Phoenix" so I'll release her from the form and see what we've got. I know I will have to retiller and reduce weight so that's when we'll really know what we've got. :OK :BB
I'll post pics.
Is 2 weeks long enough? How do you tell when the sinew is dry enough? I always thought sinew backing entailed months and month in the rafters - nice to know it can be done quicker?!
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Thanks Randy. Good luck with your osage.
Tommy, I don't know if 2 weeks is enough. I've always done a month with each course. I did read in Jim Hamm's book that 2 weeks were plenty and we've had unusually dry R/H lately so I was thinking that 2 weeks would be enough. I guess I'll find out when I retiller and reduce weight. It didn't hold much of the reflex I induced.
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I have had pretty good results letting it dry couple of weeks,, not saying it wouldnt have been better to let it go longer,,
held reflex ok and shot good through chrono,, Ill continue to try both ways,, sometimes one is drying when I work on several others and they work good too,, I think yours will shoot fine,, usually takes me a week to tiller anyway so then its drying 3 weeks,
Laubin said he couldnt tell a difference, dont think it hurts to let it go longer, but a nice bow can be made quicker in dry climate, I wouldnt argue that waiting longer might have a bennfit, just hard to measure it,,,yours looks good to go,, :)
also I forgot to add,,I think its harder to get a bow to hold reflex that is shot in,, that has been my experience, I think you did great on that one,,
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Thanks Brad. Hearing that from you gives me more confidence. :OK
We've had a pet emergency here a few days ago. Our 5 year old dog, Maggie ripped her inner thigh open, has about 35 stitches, a drain tube and a plastic cone around her neck to keep her from messing with it. I've had to drive an hour each way, twice already just getting her to and from the emergency hospital and heading back Sunday morning for a check up. She'll be down for about 10 days all together then the stitches come out. Keeping her down is a full time job because to her keeping the bears and coyotes away is her main, self imposed job. Plus, our daughter is coming in from Houston on Sunday for a week or two so this project has been on hold until things calm down. It's been a very restless, unnerving experience so far.
(https://i.imgur.com/CbKx7Hv.jpg)
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Aww poor Maggie! we've got a 10yr old dog thats the most stubborn dog! she has ripped her inner thigh open 2 times now once cutting arteries, and once stuck a stick in her chest right near her heart! darn dog (lol) :fp\
bow is looking good pat :)
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wow,, so sorry bout the emergency, hope all goes well from this poing out,
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Back to the top for WhistlingBadger.
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whe you gonna string it,, :)
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Brad, I braced her the other day, almost gave myself a hernia. ;D The brace height turned out lower do to the extra draw weight with the added sinew but everything looked pretty even. When inspecting the bow before adding the sinew I noticed where the frets were was in thinner areas between some slight humps on the back so I'll retiller to even the thickness out as I reduce the weight a bit.
It's still a little hectic around here lately. Maggie gets her stitches out on Sunday so that will help calm things down. Our daughter has been here for a week and will be here another week which adds more "excitement" to the mix. Things may need to calm down a bit before I get back into it.
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I totally get it the last bow I sinewed strung it and would have been in the 80# range,, it nearly killed me,,
but I scraped it down,, hope you get to work on yours soon, glad it looked pretty good to start,,
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I did a little scraping on this bow today. I started on areas I knew were thick along the limbs. these are near where the frets were. Then concentrated of the fades. In the pic it looks like the left limb is hinging but I think it an illusion due to the mortar joint in the block wall because it doesn't look like that with the naked eye. I still need to get the fades bending more then work on reducing the weight some if it still needs it.
(https://i.imgur.com/tTJya2u.jpg)
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Pat, you've spent a long time on it. It looks like it is coming to fruition. Very nice. Jawge
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Thanks, George. I haven't had much time to work on her lately and I don't mind letting her dry even more after adding the sinew. Locust sure does get hard after 18 years of air drying. (A) I think she is gonna be a real sweet shooter.
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looks great, what poundage you at now, did the frets scrape out yet :)
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Brad, I didn't check draw weight, I was just checking the bend. I want to get the fades bending more but that old locust is hard. :KN
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just looking great,, really nice make over on that bow,,I bet it gonna shoot great,,
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Got a little more done on the bow yesterday, got her to brace height then pulled to 26" even put 25 arrows through her. She shoots well but seems to stack right at my full draw(26"). I guess I should have kicked the tips up a bit to prevent that but too late now.
Here are a full braced and 26" draw. The fades still look unbending in the pic but to my naked eye it doesn't. I have worked on both fades to get them reduced so they will bend a bit. Top limb is on the left...
(https://i.imgur.com/eYzKl4u.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AAp88Ds.jpg)
...and I added an extension to the shelf with a piece of shoe leather. I'll shape it better once the glue dries.
(https://i.imgur.com/y3NHFcn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XaGnIqs.jpg)
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Well, it's been a month since I last posted this bow rebuild. I've been waiting for a covering for the sinew backing. I got 2 snake skins that are very nice skins but they are a bit different from each other so I decided to go with thin rawhide. I received rawhide from 3 different people here on PA. The rawhide I got from Outback Bob suited this bow the best so today I applied it.
First I cut the strip Bob sent me into 2, 2" wide strips and cut them to length then washed in warm water with Dawn dish soap, rinsed them well and let them soak until I was ready to apply them.
(https://i.imgur.com/W3jFmfv.jpg)
I put the bow back on the form holding the handle down with a strip of sinew and raised the tips on 2x4 blocks to prepare for applying the rawhide...
(https://i.imgur.com/0UlxWgJ.jpg)
I then dried the excess water off the rawhide, laid them out flat and sized with hide glue and sized the sinew backing on the bow with glue too...
(https://i.imgur.com/KFOicmL.jpg)
...and applied the rawhide. I worked out any air bubbles and wrapped rubber bands around the bow at the flared to insure good adhesion there...
(https://i.imgur.com/rQ6u3Cb.jpg)
...and now I ask for your patience again. I have the bow on the form in my basement where I keep a dehumidifier running all the time during the summer so that should help with the drying. I think I'll wait at least a week before I release it.
...more to come...
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Looks good, Pat!
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Great project Pat .I hope that belly can stand the new pressure it will face after the sinew job. God Bless
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That rawhide backing looks great. Should be a nice shooting bow. Thanks for posting all the pictures with description of the procedures. Look forward to seeing the finished bow.
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Pat, glad ya liked the rawhide and hope it does works for ya, Bob
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Thanks guys. Bob, it is already working for me. It's so thin it practically contoured itself to the sinew backing. That's why I like hide glue for rawhide and snake skin backings. It's got "suck". :OK
I'm contemplating a few different designs to go on the back. Gotta dress this baby up. 8)
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Just found this thread ...
what an interesting project. You make it look easy, great pics to explain the process.
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Thanks, Simon. This has been a fun project. It actually got me looking through my bow collection and reminiscing over some of my old favorites.
Hope you and yours fared well the flooding there in Germany and surrounding countries.
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I thought you have to wrap the rawhide with gauze to keep it from warping off.
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The nice thing about using hide glue for rawhide, sinew and snake skins is as it gels it actually sucks the rawhide to the sinew backing so it doesn't necessarily need to be wrapped. As the hide glue is gelling I use my thumb to squeeze out and air pockets, keep the hide centered on the limb and press it into the glue. After a few minutes it starts sucking the rawhide to the sinew.
In some circumstances like with sinew backing I do use a wrap to help smooth out the sinew surface but I remove it once the hide glue has gelled sufficiently to hold it's own. This only takes an hour or two, depending on the local humidity.
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Very nice thread. there's a bunch of useful informations. thanks for sharing :OK
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Hello Pat....
Just trying to help out here.On the #52 post the left limb just outside mid limb towards the tips has a slight stiff area.Reason it looks bending too much from the fade on that limb.That might be your bottom limb too for positive tiller.
Also I believe technically after sinewing a person lets it gell first and then wraps it and reheats it [ i use a hair dryer] to smooth out the sinew job.
Looks pretty good though.Good luck.
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Thanks for your input, Ed. I have worked on that area trying to get the bend in closer to the fade. I'll check it out again and do what needs doing. She can still afford to loose a few pounds anyway.
After a few days in the dehydrated basement the rawhide and sinew are very dry so I opted to take her off the form and trim her up. I first used the smoother side of a farriers rasp to rasp off the excess rawhide from the edges and around the sides of the fades...
(https://i.imgur.com/fukVqjS.jpg)
...then trimmed it up with a very sharp razor...
(https://i.imgur.com/4kjkwek.jpg)
..and then sand paper to smooth even more...
(https://i.imgur.com/3HYVo5P.jpg)
...and here she is all cleaned up and ready for some decorations...
(https://i.imgur.com/2kUCZx7.jpg)
...more to come...
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Pat....
Your fades are fine.It's midlimb out 6 to 8 inch section on the left limb from picture on #52 posting.It's very close though.Right limb looks fine.
Oh by the way I read it's your birthday.Congrats!!!
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Ed, that might be an optical illusion blending with the block wall. I will check that area out though. Thanks
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And now for the handle wrap. I first put down a few coats of Tru-Oil to seal the handle area under the wrap and let them dry over night. I've used these hemp cord handle wraps for a few years now. Generally it is one color but for this bow I opted to use the 2 colors, dark brown and tan. I've used this 2 color wrap only one other time on a boo backed bow I made last year and really liked the effect.
To start I lay the tag ends on the handle and begin wrapping over that making sure to pull it tight as I go as I keep the strands separated...
(https://i.imgur.com/gisg0dO.jpg)
...once I get near the other end I lay a loop on the handle and wrap the cords over it to the end...(https://i.imgur.com/Ba2RDTp.jpg)
...then pull the loop back under the handle wrap pulling the tag ends through. Be sure you pull both tags tight...
(https://i.imgur.com/vb0UUcf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8lcD5m5.jpg)
...and trim off the tags between the wrap strands...
(https://i.imgur.com/iAHrXUk.jpg)
...finally I singe the "hairs" off of the hemp cord to help smooth out the wrap...
(https://i.imgur.com/c0oiufd.jpg)
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...and now to seal the cord handle wrap. I use Massey finish, 2 ton epoxy thinned with acetone and for an applicator I roll up a paper towel and bind it with a rubber band. I don't use a recipe for the Massey finish but mix it to a watery consistency...
(https://i.imgur.com/uVOaM7O.jpg)
I saturate the applicator in Massey finish and daub it on the handle wrap making sure the wrap is totally saturated...(https://i.imgur.com/JryMYCz.jpg)
...and now to wait for the epoxy to cure. After it has cured I use sandpaper to smooth out any rough areas that might irritate the hand.
You may have caught a preview of part of the decorations I added to the bow's rawhide back yesterday. I'll post pics of the finished product a bit later.
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Well, these will be the last pics of this bow. Ed had pointed out a spot that was a bit stiff so I pinpointed that area and did a bit of scraping but alas the frets came back. Not where I did the scraping but where the original frets were on the other limb. Anyway I resealed the newly scraped areas with Tru-Oil to seal the bow but she will be a wall hanger now.
Here are the last pics of her after she got all dressed up. Even though she didn't work out the way I planned I at least hope others got info to help them build and decorate bows. If I help one person then she is not a failure. ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/VdvuzNQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CHtMOMW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bFVyzIy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PCkTjll.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/138CdB4.jpg)
...RIP...! (--)
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beautiful bow, thanks for sharing,, :) :) :) love the art work,, )P(
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So the frets were on the right limb according to post #52?
I've tried myself redoing a couple of bows that had chrysalls or frets.A maple and a black locust maybe 10 years ago.Sanded them completely gone but keeping it in tiller with the rest of the limbs too.Applied belly lamination to keep the same draw weight.Retillered.Over time of less than 1000 shots the chrysalls returned,Not on the lamination but under on the main core again.I could see them on the edge.
It seems sometimes those chrysalls might do damage deeper than one knows.I sure was hoping yours would turn out different.
Top view profile of that bow is I think just right for a black locust flat bow.
Wood is wood as they say.Grab a better piece and move on.
Like the handle regime and the lightning bolt.
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Yeah, it was a bummer but not totally unexpected. And I agree, Ed, those old frets probably go deeper than we can see. Well, I wondered and now I know.
One thing this bow accomplished is it got my juices flowing again. I've got another design in mind. Similar to Superdav95's modified molle but backed with the moose sinew a bowyer and friend in Norway sent me.
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You lucky fella.
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What a shame. Pieces like this seem to be where black locus got its reputation for fretting. I guess that’s the game of working with natural materials. Win some lose some.
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Ryan, I cut my teeth on locust. Locust fence posts were $5 back then. And I rarely made a locust bow without it fretting. A lot of that was me but locust is susceptible to fretting. George has been very successful with locust. But hoping an old locust bow with frets can overcome the problem, even with most of the belly reduced was a long shot.
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Clearly a case that the locust was overpowered by the lightning bolts. ;)
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I still think it was worth a try, maybe an even lower poundage might have survived,,?? what do you think,, :) or what about putting a new belly,, :)
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Sorry, Pat. Did she fold up on you? Jawge
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Brad, after all these years I think I'll just let her RIP. I have another bow in my head that I'd like to see materialize. ;)
No, George but when new frets pushed through the Tru-Oil I knew it was only a short time before she did. I think I'd rather view her up on the wall for now.
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Well Pat, it was a success.... I definitely learned something. Thanks.
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Yes Pat, thanks. I had my fingers crossed since you started. I learned a lot following along. I would hang her on the wall to enjoy also. Nice finish work by the way.
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Thanks, Guys.
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Oh, what a loss. sorry for that.
But many thanks for that informative howto!
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Sorry this one didn’t make it but I appreciate all that I learned from following along. Thanks for taking time to document this.
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Black Locust can be your very best friend, or your worst enemy. Every thing has to be just right to make a long lasting trouble free bow. Sorry that happened. Now is the time to get a stave, and build another. I failed on my first 4 tries with Black locust, but learned along the way. 5,6,7,and turned out alright. Number 8 no so much.
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Black can be your best friend, or worst enemy. Sorry that happened to you. Every thing has to be just right to make a long lasting trouble free bow. Build another. You can do it.
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Meant to say Black Locust, and sorry for the double post.
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Great build along in sinewing and backings fellas the decorations. At least, she didn't blow up on you. sometimes, you just have put an old friend to rest(or on the wall)!
Hawkdancer
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sorry to hear that Pat. I kinda figured that would happen.. didn't quite understand the reason to sinew the back when the belly failed.. putting more stress on the belly.. but sometimes you just gotta try.. she was really looking good too.. gut
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Sorry to hear about your project Pat. I have only saved one bow with frets in it,and that by reducing the weight considerably. I admire your "stick with it" though. The other bows that developed frets have been long since tossed into the burn pile. God Bless
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Pat,, Sorry to hear about your BL bow. I plan on trying to bring my first osage bow back to life using sinew. Until then, there is always another bow project.
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Thanks guys. I normally wouldn't try this on an old bow but something about this bow drew me to try. Live and learn.
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I wonder if adding belly lams would fix it? But this bow deserves retirement. :)
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Adding a belly lam would fix it, I've done that a few times successfully but like you said, she deserves retirement.