Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bradsmith2010 on March 12, 2021, 06:01:37 pm
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I am posting this just to raise awareness of shorter bows, and I am just guessing about the meaning of the photo, but he was one of the most powerful Comanche Chiefs of all time,, so here is where I am guessing and could be totally wrong, but I am thinking he is not sitting there thinking his bow is too short, or doesnt store enough energy,, or is not accurate enough,or the string angle is too much,,, I have a feeling he could be holding any bow he wanted, like I said I could be wrong in my thinking,,
I think Laubin had a good point in his book with he said it takes more skill to shoot a shorter bow,, I agree,,
someone commented on a very nice shorter bow lately,,,, and why was it so short,, and then there was the discussion about power etc,, even though they may not store as much energy on a graph,, they can be powerful enough to kill a buffalo, and the accuracy depends alot on the shooter,,, as stated I like long and short bows,,and have hunted successfully with both, 25 years ago, I started experimenting with shorter bows after Jay Massey hinted a preference to them,, of couse I could hear Tim Baker stating they were not as accurate as longer bow,, but I wondered why the Native Bow seemed to be shorter,, there had to be something to that right,,
so I made a 52 inch sinew backed bow bout 25 years ago,,,,back then I was a pretty good shot anyway, but that bow was accurate out to 30 yards,, well whats accurate, I could shoot 3 arrows in or around a pine cone most the timie at 30 yards, further than I would shoot at a deer, I did shoot a 70 inch bow to compete in 3d,, and couldnt shoot any better with that bow at 30 yards than the shorter bow, well ok, I was learning something,,
I took it deer hunting ok,,4 shots and 4 deer later in one year, I started to understand more about the short bow, than I did just reading about it,, its effective,, and powerful,, no doubt there are bows that are more accurate or more powerful,,, or longer,, but in a given situation, probably not better or more effecient,, Im just saying that a bow does not have to be long to be accurate or powerful,, and if you shoot with no anchor thats ok too, all the deer I killed with that shorter bow,, I was shooting about 25 inces of draw no anchor,, the first two I shot all the way through and the arrows were lying in an x on the ground,,
shooting through a chrono showed me that a power stroke of 24 or 25 inches, will shoot hard,, even when I read about Sioux arrows being 23 inches, I made some bows to see, and they would shoot 180 fps, with an arrow less than 10gpp,, but still hunting weight arrows,,
Im just saying there is a good reason,, the guys using them to make a living, were using them,, or had a preference for some shorter bows,, of course there were longer bows too,, and bows in Jim Hamms book that were over 70# draw weight that he examined in museums,,
I am definitely not saying shorter bows are better,, just that they can be accurate and powerful,, in a specific application,, and not to be underestimated,,,when well designed,, or in the hands of a proficient archer,,
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Bradsmith, do you have any info about the bow in the pic or ones similar to it?
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Eastcreek, I dont, I am sure in Jim Hamms books there would be some similar bows,, it looks like a parallel d bow to me,,Im guessing 48 inces,,or so,,
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Turns out all bows are awesome. Who knew?! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The primary reason the Comanches used short bows was because they shot them from horseback while chasing buffalo, or ridding through a pack of Texas Rangers trying to reload. Usually less than 10 yd. shots in both cases.
H
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I agree, brad. Those bows are deadly. Jawge
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that sounds like a good reason to me,, :)
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I would make a short bow if I could do it without sinew and still have a full length draw. That's the one reason I'm afraid to try one. That short bow your talking about though he made without sinew and it held a great unbraced side profile. I think shorter bows are less cumbersome which I would prefer for hunting anyway.
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I'll probably get flack for saying this but just like everything else he is wearing/ holding in this photograph, that bow is ceremonial. It's a medicine bow.
Comanches were hunting buffalo with rifles, when they could find them, when this picture was taken.
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I'll probably get flack for saying this but just like everything else he is wearing/ holding in this photograph, that bow is ceremonial. It's a medicine bow.
Comanches were hunting buffalo with rifles, when they could find them, when this picture was taken.
They probably weren't hunting anything when that picture was taken.
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good point Pat,, :)
Jack your insight is appreciated,,,it looks funtional to me,, but I really dont know,,if it was osage , it might be like 50 ish in draw weight, just guessing,,I appreciate you taking the time to post,, :)
Allyn I think you would like a sinew bow, ,if you tried it,, ;D
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Thanks Brad. In herman Lehmann book he talks a little about it. Did they shoot Buffalo, yes. But they were opertunistic hunters as well often eating pole cat as well. He describes and says without exaggeration being able to shoot a hat out at 30 yards everytime. He did this as bets after he was reintroduced back to his family.
Halfwye was a big advocate for short bows. Remember speed doesn't kill, accuracy does! Yes it takes a certain speed for an arrow to kill an animal but it seems most are chasing speed. Trying to get as fast of a bow as they can. Natives just wanted something that wouldn't break and could kill. In my opinion that is.
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What's the date. I didn't see one.
He doesn't look to happy though. Someone may have criticized his bow. :)
Jawge
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Eastcreek, I dont, I am sure in Jim Hamms books there would be some similar bows,, it looks like a parallel d bow to me,,Im guessing 48 inces,,or so,,
You are being optimistic there. That bow is not much more that 36"
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I would make a short bow if I could do it without sinew and still have a full length draw. That's the one reason I'm afraid to try one. That short bow your talking about though he made without sinew and it held a great unbraced side profile. I think shorter bows are less cumbersome which I would prefer for hunting anyway.
How short are you talkin? Definitely doable with good wood and design. Just won’t look like a narrow Stereotypical native bow.
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I would make a short bow if I could do it without sinew and still have a full length draw. That's the one reason I'm afraid to try one. That short bow your talking about though he made without sinew and it held a great unbraced side profile. I think shorter bows are less cumbersome which I would prefer for hunting anyway.
How short are you talkin? Definitely doable with good wood and design. Just won’t look like a narrow Stereotypical native bow.
I'm talking like 56-60 inches I feel like that's pretty short for a 29" draw.
Brad Im sure I would like it lol it's just a lot of work all around
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Allyn, that’s definitely doable. 58” ntn would be my minimum for a bend through the handle bow unless I went for a tiller shape with stiffer outer limbs with wide inner limbs. 56” could be achieved with mild reflex in the outer limbs to prevent stacking.
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thanks Ryan, we got to get Allyn a good hunting bow he is happy with,, :)
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It looks like a childs bow to me. Unless it was ipe or similar it wouldn't have much weight to it either. I doubt those arrows he is holding could be fully drawn on that bow.
Really it is a waste of time speculating about these sorts of things. There could be all sorts of stuff a viewer of the photo would never even consider. Just take it as a very interesting peek into a time past but nothing more :)
Now to actually have a chance to talk to this fella...... that would be an eye opener :)
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Brad, I really like your view point there. I'd like add to it but really cant, I think you said it all.
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thanks Ryan, we got to get Allyn a good hunting bow he is happy with,, :)
Right now any bow I make I'm happy with lol.
Ryan between you and Brad I'm sure I'll be convinced to attempt one soon
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Marc was right,, this bow is 42 and seems much longer than bow in photo,,
but you can see this might appear to be a childs bow, but it pulls 50#@20 inches, and yes sometimes arrows were longer than the intended draw of a bow,, I have seen that quite 0ften, I do that myself to get arrows to fly, thats a whole nother discussion for sure,,, most of my arrows are longer than I draw,,,even my 28 inch draw bows,, I shoot full length shafts,, the arrow in the photo here are 23 inch Sioux inspired,, when I first started making the shorter bows,, my best hunting friend commented it looked like a childs bow,, imagine the surprise on his face when he tried to draw, it,, 65#@25 inches,,
I was looking at some west coast arrows over 30 inces for some very short bows,,,they were reed, I am assuming the longer arrows were a better spine at the longer length,,
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On tradarchersworld I found the following article on the subject (the last article on the page - please remove the brackets around the http:...):
(http:)//tradarchersworld.com/cart/merchandise.html
Personally, I also really like shooting short bows. And if they have very short draw lengths, then I just adjust my anchor point.... (-S
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thank you I will check it out,,
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I find short bows very handy. I only have about a 24” draw so they actually fit me pretty well. I’m always surprised how little wood belongs in a short bow. They don’t have the leverage so it takes less mass for the same draw weight as a longer bow.
I have a shorty I made. Static recurves to help with string angle and give some early string tension. I think it’s around 42”. Something like 45@24”. Physical weight is around 9.5 oz. it’s a pretty quick bow. I call it “No Kiddin” because it does look like a kids bow. I took it hunting a couple times this year but I didn’t get a shot. I don’t see any reason it shouldn’t be a deadly weapon though.
I also agree with the longer arrows. They are easier to tune and get great arrow flight.
I like all kinds of bows though. I do think a little longer stiff handle is a bit more durable. It has more mass to store energy and handle the stress. To long gets to much mass.
That’s one of the beautiful things about selfbows. You can build what you want and try it out. It’s all good
Bjrogg
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Nice discussion, I have several shot bows and love them as I do all my bows, you would never hear me talk down on them, of course I don't get into all the mass weight, shooting curves or stored energy stuff, to each their own,Bows either shoot to my liking or they don't, ;) simply said, they are harder for me to shoot well but have great admiration for those that can. ;) :) Love the pictures by the way Brad. :)
Pappy
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thank you Pappy,, well said as always,, )P(
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Yup Pappy, that’s how I see it to. I really don’t do the whole mass and stored energy stuff either. I don’t think I even understood it till I made some short bows. Honestly still not sure I do.lol
I just know there’s a lot less wood on a 48” bendy 50@24 than a 64” stiff handle 50@24. So I’m calling that less mass.
Bjrogg
I like them all and enjoy trying different designs.
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I think it helps people grow to try different designs and different wood types
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this is 54inch osage bow, rawhide back,, after a few warm up shots,
I was only shooting 8 yards,,but hoping to get a close shot at turkey out of blind with decoy,,
so thought I would see if this bow still shoots well,, yep,, If I can hold my nerves, the turkey will be in trouble,, I need the shorter bow to shoot out of blind so a longer bow is not an option,, hunting out of a blind is a good example of when a short bow really comes into its own,,in gonna call this eye of the turkey shot,, ;D
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Nice bow and nice shot :) Good luck with the turkeys,
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yes thank you I need alot of luck, last one I missed,, shot over his back,, hope to do better this year,,
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I'm hoping to get out turkey hunting this spring as well... probably won't get anything as I have NO clue how to hunt turkey. but I have seen lots o' turkey scratches when deer hunting last year. I was told to come to check out that bow of yours brad.... what was the DL? of your bow? and how wide is that handle section? :) looks real great....
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maybe beginners luck with kick in and you get one, then they will torture you after that :)
handle is roughley 1 1/4
I tillered it out to 27 but ended up shooting it at 24 or 25,, thats really my comfort zone for draw,, no heat treating as advised by Marc when I was making it,,it follows the string a bit,,, but at 8 to 10 yards I feel the accuracy is more important to me,,it has a rawhide from a bow deer bow kill,, so far only a rabbit and squirrel with it,, but I feel positive hunting with it,,I have some notes on that bow will look it up,,
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found some notes,, 157 fps with 500 grain arrow,, 50#@25 inches
55 inches nock to nock,, feel like it would have been in the 160's without silencers, but was happy with the hunting set up,, I dont think I chronoed it at longer draw,, could not find anything,,hope that helps,, good thing I took some notes,, I would never remember that,, I thought the bow was 54 but I had written it was 55,,
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Thanks brad! That’s loads of help :)
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good luck on your hunt, you can do it,, :)
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found some notes,, 157 fps with 500 grain arrow,, 50#@25 inches
55 inches nock to nock,, feel like it would have been in the 160's without silencers, but was happy with the hunting set up,, I dont think I chronoed it at longer draw,, could not find anything,,hope that helps,, good thing I took some notes,, I would never remember that,, I thought the bow was 54 but I had written it was 55,,
Thats really good numbers for that bow.
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thank you Sleek,
I really want to thank everyone for posting and taking the time to read,, its greatly appreciated,,
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Most osage Comanche bows I have seen look like child bows. But I think that is deceptive. They must have been fairly speedy to take down a buffalo within 10-15 yards. One reason the Comanche's were so hard for the Americans/Mexicans to subdue is because they were exceptional archers on horseback, accounts tell of this. U.S. soldiers got off their horses to shoot (I don't know if the Texas Rangers did the same?), the Comanches shot from a riding horse whether it be a bow or gun. Its said the Comanche could shoot a bow from under a horses neck while riding, so as to use the horse as a shield. Several accounts tell of this. He may be dressed in ceremonial clothes, the bow simply a part of that "costume", as I also think he would have used that very same bow to hunt and raid. Also, as has been commented already, but that photo of him with the bow is after he gave up fighting. He is simply posing for the photographer. I don't believe there are any photos of Quanah (that I know of) prior to giving up his more traditional Comanche lifestyle. If there was, they would have been shooting a rifle, not a photo : )
Short bows are fun, I really enjoy them. I think one major reason for making short bows, is to get many shots off and quickly. I think it clues us in on how they conducted ward. Short distance ambush attacks with heavy deployment of arrows, which I think a short bow would be most effective at. Just a thought.