Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bassman on January 11, 2021, 12:04:05 am
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I found an endless loop linen string today looking through my junk. It fits on a 60 inch 45lb self Birch bow, and braces at 6 inches. I have a D97 ,and B55 string both 10 stranders for that same bow. Tomorrow I am going to shoot same bow same arrow through a chrony with all three strings. Any body want to predict what bow string will give best fps results of the three. Eager to see what the linen string does. never shot one before.
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Your d97 will likely have an edge but next will be the linen then the b55 :) Linen won't be far behind the dyneema string. It just loses out on weight but lack amount of stretch is similar. Well made linen strings are my favourites :)
Full length hemp fiber is what you really want....that stuff is superb. I guess that's why so many wars were fought over it use/distribution.
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Some guys grow their own , and make strings. Who is your supplier if I may ask? I would like to try, and make some strings from it.
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Never shot through a chrono but many years ago I tested a flight bow I made using a linen string and a ff string. There was basically no difference in distance using the same arrow
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Full length hemp fiber is what you really want....that stuff is superb. I guess that's why so many wars were fought over it use/distribution.
Not to mention the noctic component that is running rampant in so many states. >:(
I wish I could get ahold of good linen. I've played around with nettle before, but I wasn't good enough to get a good string.
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The last two years I’ve been using linen from Tandy leather . I think it’s 5 count. It’s not D97 but I wet it and it gets the job done. I think if I could get wax thin enough to soak into the string a bit it would make it plenty strong . But then you get into weight issues . I wish they would just let us use D97 in premitive flight. The real problem is when you get to the 100 pound plus bows. The string is more like a rope. Arvin
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The weight of the string is the primary cause of speed differences as opposed to mechanical properties of different string materials.
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Yes Steve . It just takes more linen . Also I make Flemish twist strings. They seem to hold up better in the loops. Don’t ask me why.
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I just shot the bow. I counted the strands on all the strings before shooting. 16 strand linen which seemed heavy compared to the other two strings, a 7 strand B55, and an 8 strand D97 string. Shot 10 shots each for an average. The linen string shot 2 fps faster than the B55, and the D97 shot 7 fps faster than the linen string..and 9 fps faster than the B55. Not enough difference to warrant buying linen in my eyes.
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I’ve been using 10 stand of the 5 count. That’s marginal for 50# bow. 16 strand for the heavy bows.
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My latest FF string was flemish twist 9 strands and fits a 68" bow. It weighed about 50 grains.
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Bassman, would you mind giving us the weight of all those strings?
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Arvin is it a rule that you have to shoot linen when you flight shoot?
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Yes at the USA sanctioned shoots. In primitive only. Arvin
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I just shot the bow. I counted the strands on all the strings before shooting. 16 strand linen which seemed heavy compared to the other two strings, a 7 strand B55, and an 8 strand D97 string. Shot 10 shots each for an average. The linen string shot 2 fps faster than the B55, and the D97 shot 7 fps faster than the linen string..and 9 fps faster than the B55. Not enough difference to warrant buying linen in my eyes.
It would be interesting to know the breaking strength of the linen to determine how many strands might be shed to minimize weight.
Back in the day flight shooters would strive to have their string break and still get off the shot.
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Pat I don’t buy into that method . I broke two bows the first flight shoot I attended. One the string broke and the other a knock broke . Both causing a basic dry fire. This was shooting light flight arrows. Thats part of flight shooting though. I would rather get 6 arrows off for a better chance to brake a record. 10-15 grains of extra string weight in most cases will not matter braking records. My effort is in the bow and a good arrow match. Arvin
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It is what I had to test. 10 strands of linen could have very well have yielded the same velocities as D97. Nothing scientific about my test, and at least I got a chance to shoot a linen string for the first time.
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Is there any chance you could weigh those strings?
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Badger about 2 months a go while making a 70 inch Elm bow I knocked my powder measuring scale that measured in grains off the table of my loading bench ,and broke It. Never got around yet to buy a digital scale. My brothers have them, but because of Covid I can't get my hands on theirs. You, Mark, and Arvin, Bownarra, and others have way more experience than I on the subject of linen strings, so I will ask this question.....Have any of you tied equal weight linen, and ff strings, and tested them for speed, and distance comparisons?
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Wouldn't a sinew, rawhide, gut, or other natural fiber string also work in primitive class?
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For Primitive string, i say hemp. It was used by the Flemish in past and medieval times, was gotten from Italy then in ye olde time. Also raw silk, the green stuff, which used to be grow in France. I never understood why people went to linen, i guess hemp just had a bad rep cuz of weed ? I imagine the raw green silk is hard to get or something. Anyway, if u can get either of those , u can make a historical Flemish string if u want. Apply not wax, but natural cherry gum, though tragacanth is recommended in the guide i have as good alternative. Using natural gum, it makes the string hard and stiff but flexible yet, like a violin string a bit. I have a guide for this, but it's all in Dutch so of limited use to most here, hopefully I translated well enough for this to be of use, for people wanting to make Traditional string like the old Flemish used to, much good string rolling to y'all!
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I've only ever used linen, served with silk or mercerized cotton. Years ago l did a basic stress test and found each cord to break at just over 6 lbs. l make endless loop strings and just put one extra loop for insurance. So a #50 bow would have 10 cords. Never had one break yet as far as l know (about 100 strings).
Note: the weakness with linen is it's abrasion resistance ie. it frays easily. Serving at every contact point is crucial. Never used a modern string material so nothing to compare performance-wise
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6 times bow weight is considered a minimum by most when using linen strings. For flight I go no lower than about 4 times bow weight and that doesn't usually last more than a few shots.
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6 times bow weight is considered a minimum by most when using linen strings. For flight I go no lower than about 4 times bow weight and that doesn't usually last more than a few shots.
Fascinating. I use linen exclusively for all of my shooting and hunting. I make my strings about 4x the draw weight of the bow and, in all my 20+ years of shooting, have only had one string failure. It broke in one of the loops. I make a mix of endless loop and twisted strings.
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Wouldn't a sinew, rawhide, gut, or other natural fiber string also work in primitive class?
yes but most use linen I guess cause it’s better fill in blank why . It boils down to strength, mass weight, and stretch.
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The linen I have is pretty good quality. A 340# string comes out at about 1/8" in diameter, couldn't tell you what it weighs though. A 300# string is what I generally make for 50# to 60# bows, never had one break even with a high string tension bow
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If anybody would know it would be a serious flight shooter like you, and the Badger.
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I just ran a caliper on this bow string, and it is also 1/8 diameter, and does not look like it is going to break any time soon.
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I still have lots to learn believe me. Steves been at it a long time. Me 3 years. But that’s what I see there. Arvin
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I just ran a caliper on this bow string, and it is also 1/8 diameter, and does not look like it is going to break any time soon.
Do you remember where it came from?
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Yes Pat, I was on a run buying vintage glass bows for a period of time, and it came with one of those bows. Actually I had another thinner one that I got like that, but it was all beat up. This one is in good shape, and is tied with continuous loops.
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Wouldn't a sinew, rawhide, gut, or other natural fiber string also work in primitive class?
Of course they will make a string but not a high performance, on the edge type string.
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Badger if you are still reading this thread I fixed my scale this morning with some crazy glue of all things. The linen string weighs 150 grains. I looked at the conversion chart from grains to grams, and it comes out 9.71 grams. The B55 string weighs 130 grains, and the D97 string weighs 90 grains.
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Thanks Bassman, that makes sense. I am surprised the B55 string is so heavy with only 7 strands.
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For nock fit I have to tie a double serving, and a floss pad in between the servings. I believe that adds weight to the string. I try to compensate for that by tying the pig tails as short as I can get them, and still be safe.
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Are you certain the linen string actually is linen?
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Steve some d97 has more wax. They have a low wax d97 also. Same strength I think just has less wax. That might be the weight difference. Arvin
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Here is a couple pics for you. You tell me.
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Badger if you are still reading this thread I fixed my scale this morning with some crazy glue of all things. The linen string weighs 150 grains. I looked at the conversion chart from grains to grams, and it comes out 9.71 grams. The B55 string weighs 130 grains, and the D97 string weighs 90 grains.
Seems like that linen string is a bit heavy but the D97 is about in line with what I have weighed
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Here is a couple pics for you. You tell me.
The reason I ask is because at one point fortisan started replacing linen and I believe it has a similar appearance without having evidence of shorter fibers. Bows from that era often offered a choice of the two.
I remember seeing an old spool of what was labelled "flax sinew" but it also had another smaller fortisan sticker on it which puzzled me as to what exactly I was looking at.
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So then it is linen.
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isn't fortisan like rayon?
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isn't fortisan like rayon?
Yes.
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So then it is linen.
If that tidbit of info settled it, OK. ;)
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I decided to take one of my linen string down to weigh and measure it. The string is for s 59" bow that pulls about 55" @ 28" and it is a 340# string calculated by the number of strands times break strength. The string weighed 110 grains and the diameter at the serving was just under 1/8" which would make the actual diameter of the string closer to 3/32" or maybe a bit under. If I was making a flight string I would bring the strength down by 100# which would lighten it's physical weight as well as its diameter
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That makes more sense to me now. String I weighed was 2 inches longer, and thicker in diameter, and 2 long pig tail adding to the weight. Who ever rolled my string made it thick enough for a recurve bow, and safe enough to shoot for a longer period of time. If you rolled a D97 string now that weighed the same as your linen string fps should be close, but in my mind I still think D97 would still have a slight edge, or maybe not. Roll one up ,and shoot them through the chrony. I would like to see the results.
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Each strand of D97 will slow the bow by about .75 ft per second. Weight seems to be the over riding factor.
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This is so interesting! Considering B55 and D97 were made to offer about same safety (both not overbuilt), I could almost bet for a difference of maximum 5-6 fps at speeds around 150-160 fps. So string material is definitely more important than I thought.
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Years ago I bought my son a 40lb Samick Sage take down glass recurve. The string that came with the bow looked like a small rope. I tied a 10 strand B55 string ,and a 10 strand D97 string for the bow ,and shot all three strings all else being equal. Still remember the numbers. The factory string shot average 148 fps at a little over 26 inches of draw. The B55 string shot average 154 fps. The 10 strand D97 shot 162 fps. A bow string plays a big part in how a bow performs. Through time I ended up shooting 8 strands of both B55, and D97 with no negative effects.