Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: HH~ on December 17, 2020, 09:22:14 am
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The Ante or maybe The Anti ?
So it begins. These are a bit long for a Elon Race Race Rocket. Fix that up here directly.
Shawn~
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Sweet. I'm looking forward to where all this reflexed, recurved craziness is going.
(-P
Mark
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Well,
I will raise two billets and throw in some accent strips in joint.
HH~
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"Accent strips" . lol. I once had someone admire a thick dark glueline in a bad splice thinking it was a slice of walnut.
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I put them in the bow I just finished and they were a big talking point in OP hands. Cept they were on outside edge. They are dark and will look like "The Big W".
Helps if you where yer cheaters when cutting joints!
Shawn~
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The Ante or maybe The Anti ?
So it begins. These are a bit long for a Elon Race Race Rocket. Fix that up here directly.
Shawn~
Just photoshop them....;)
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Come Again?
We're in the Recurve Shootout Arvin started. This is work shoppin not photo shoppin.
Did a 2 3/4 splice with a few .600" shims as I did not like the fit. I should have rasped a bit more out and put one more dark shim in.
Need one more in to make the pot runneth full.
Shawn~
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Does that Samuel Adams make that glue joint stronger? Cornfield flight shoot in may could be fun. Except the corn will be about 2’ high probably. Maybe not.
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Corns gone Arvin.
No, I used m1903 walnut shims from a hand guard. Like that chit I know. Nuthi better than a good selfbow cept a good shooting 1903 battle rifle.
HH~
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Ante is Up.
Turned tips 88 degrees. Need to thin limbs and reflex reheat treat. 67.5" TTT. Do a bit of scraping then pic handle wood. Thinkin some dark hard stuff?
Shawn~
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That's what I'm talking about.
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Uhh, yer prop there is 8 digits off!
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Thats no prop. Had to pull it out my belt to kneel and take pic.
My Obiden selfbow weight.
HH~
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Looks sweet . This is getting interesting around here.
Bjrogg
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Uhh, yer prop there is 8 digits off!
My Obiden selfbow weight.
Pardon my ignorance, but huh?
I am very impressed by those sharp recurves.
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That's a little caul Pappy and I built so it does not interfere with the limbs reflex (if you already have it in when recurving).
Yeah, gonna be fun putting a string on this the first time! All gud, I got ballistic goggles and my ACH made outta some space shuttle material so bullets bounce off it. It works I've tested it in the CZ.
Today is reduction in limb thickness. Get "The Ante" bending a bit.
The first thing I notice of Ante vs Marc's bow is:
Ante has more handle and more hook. From making a bunch of self-static recurves is it's not a the hook that give you speed its low limb mass, reflex and good wood.
You should jump in BJ put some shavings in the pot!
Shawn~
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I’m tuned in Shawn and will be curious how much of all that remains as a selfbow! I’m learning though.keep it up. Arvin
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Those recurves look great! Can you tell me how thick the tips were when you put them on the caul? Thanks
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"From making a bunch of self-static recurves is it's not a the hook that give you speed its low limb mass, reflex and good wood. "
Totally agree, Shawn. You know what kind of bows I make. I'm too stingy with my time to do a project like this one. Great work.
Jim
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5/8ths inch or just shy. I did not measure just eyeballed it.
Pappy said "Scrape belly to a ring in those hook areas". I thought "gee, thats a goo idea". With dry heat they will flake but it you go slow it'll work out on elm and osage just fine.
Yes, Jim I do know. You stay purty much covered up in projects. I hope your well during this (whatever some call it) times. Hope can all get together when it warms and we get some juice in our arms.
Had one little Tit right centered in one limb and wood is nail hard there. Going to have to go in there and get that to reflex a bit more. Either that or put put two Stewert cam kinks in The Ante. HH Super Cam? May Be.
Shawn~
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Don't recurves shoot fastest though?
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Not by my eye. Never could tell a static shot faster than a flipped selfbow! Shot whitetails with both. Never saw either that were killed with each type any more dead than the other when i think on it. :)
Arvin said his three go to rigs all shoot about same distance. I’m prolly not the guy to see 5fps making any difference anywhere un reality.
Shawn~
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I understand that recurves have comparable performance to a longbow, but their clearest advantage is that they are shorter and more maneuverable, right?
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Never worried about how long a bow is unless i was in a closed blind or in thick jungle. I’m 72” tall , so i got to get in there. Hauling a 68” bow is no big thing. For me anyhow. My jungle pig bow is 56” and its recurved. So, yes that helps.
HH~
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I understand that recurves have comparable performance to a longbow, but their clearest advantage is that they are shorter and more maneuverable, right?
Exactly
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Shawn I plan on.
I been working on a build along on the Leather Wall site. That’s definitely ate up a lot of my time.
It’s a interesting stick. Had a lot of problems that needed fixes with lots of caricature. Got to show how to fix them.
The thread is titled “ Bending Static recurves 101. I started out just going to show how to bend but ended up do alignment, tillering and the works.
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Well done Brian by the way. Thanks
I’m trying these recurves and such. But longbow is easier and 10-15 FPS in target and hunting is not monumental. The 10-15 FPS matters in flight though. Arvin
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Yeah, Leather monkees. Me and Phildo dont see things in same way. The two America’s thing. Instead giving every warrior a say its easier to just cancel a person out.
If ya have a Political forum its big boy rules youd think? Its their Chicken and they can pluck it anyway they wish. Pluck Phil.
HH~
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Shawn you lost me there?Please explain so’s a Texan can understand . Arvin
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From a purely measured standpoint, not from what it looks like or how it kills.
Statics weren't and aren't a big thing just because they look nicer.
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Ya lost me too. What are you saying Pat.
Shawn~
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That statics provide extra. Why else would you be doing this build?
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Purty sure ive said. I never built a static that shot noticeably faster than any other good selfbow. Have fast statics and fast reflexed longbow selfbows.
The why?
For the Arvin Super Recurve Shootout
Shawn~
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You never measured though. That's the confounder.
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Correct. I have eyes.
I see! You cant make a static unless yer chasing a chrono readout.
Roger, Over.
HH~
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I’m going to have to polish up on my military talk. That way I can understand. That’s going to take some doin since I never was military. Arvin
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Big difference between saying two bow designs shoot the same because I can see it versus actually measuring the differences. Come on man. ::)
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Purdy sure i explained how i look at it. If i can see The flight difference between B55, D97 and 8125 shot on same bow. I dont need draw force curve extrapolations to tell me which one is gettin it done.
Keep it primitive. No need to put spooky dust on it and call it some kind of miracle of bow building. Rather “that bow is quick is good for this yardbird.
Shawn~
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Then you would just make the simpler one. Plus if ya need cheaters to cut a splice....
It's like ya don't wanna know what ya know, ya know?
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I think the static is some faster but what I really like is they are smoother , looking good Shawn , but please speak English so all can understand. 😊 Pappy
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There is something about them as shooters, either that or all the bending and tweaking to get them just right makes us think they are extra special.
My statics do seem more stable and easier to shoot, could be all in my head but they are my favorites.
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Here's the Ante after a small amount of thinning. I started with Ante over sized in fades all way to tip in width and a tad thick as well, Ungar Engineering if you will. Scrape some edges off, then lube it up and put it back in form or build a form with several more inches of reflex and slide it on and cook it one more time.
Have to get a handle on this buggar before any bending. I did find a section of wood that'll work.
HH~
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Big difference between saying two bow designs shoot the same because I can see it versus actually measuring the differences. Come on man. ::)
:)
If recurves and longbows shoot the same why not just make a longbow??? :)
I'm looking forward to seeing full draw and unbraced afterwards :)
Good luck on your build.
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Looks to me like a pretty good handle already... >:D
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Looks to me like a pretty good handle already... >:D
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Really!!i thought I overbuilt the handles.😁😀
Arvin
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Yeah
One inch with a joint without a backing not enough to stand the stresses over time.
Riser Wars? I like 2x4’s with limbs. Best i ever saw.
Wait til Shotgun start in July. I can hear the screams even now.
HH~
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Shawn you make me laugh. Ok target panic Arvin is going to be there God willing. You have to beat him.😁
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I sure hope so.
Shawn~
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Yep lots of whiners at that event, tickles me to watch them and deal with them, they think the bow tips or grip or the string is what is making that guy shoot 11's. :) ;) ;)
Pappy
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Riser Wars? I like 2x4’s with limbs. Best i ever saw.
Wait til Shotgun start in July. I can hear the screams even now.
Sorry, but is this a reference to an event?
Thanks,
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I was just giving you trouble, but I also forgot that you started with billets!
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Here's a riser fit for a super static. Knock off the edges and its all you'll ever want to shoot again. So, I am going to modify and old recurve caul I have. Can then rflex one limb at a time with hook already done and tweek for center alignment.
Now here's a bow that's going same time as Ante ... 68". Here it sits at first 5" brace. This wood is that orange dense amber looking stuff with the spring of Detroit steel. Its about 120lbs @ 5" limbs about a 3/8ths. Profile is dead flat un-braced and i will bet at 28"@50lbs it will cast an arrow 25yds farther than this Static, out shoot it for accuracy and last a 100 shooting years. All about the wood
Shawn~
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Make sure you report the distance.
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Yeah, I be sure to put that on top of my booger gnat list of things to waste my time with there PatM.
HH~
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Well I want to know. You going to hold out? Is it fifty pounds? If so same arrow would tell the tell. Nice bow. But how did you get those hooks to bend that far. Did they go all the way back.or y’all just pulling the Texans leg. Arvin
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Yeah, I be sure to put that on top of my booger gnat list of things to waste my time with there PatM.
HH~
That's one way of avoiding it. lol
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::)
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He was ready to bet too.
But sometimes the horse stays in the barn even though the owner "knows" he's got the fastest one. Thing is, both horses are from the same stable.
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Think maybe the Wuhan has yer good senses balled up in a knot somewhere.
Gnats do like to buzz around dead stuff, go figger?
Shawn~
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Well if you're scared to test, what's the point of the whole thing?
Feelings, nothing more than feelings. Like the old song goes.
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I think you better find another stoop to poop on partner. Not much in mood today.
Shawn~
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You had your chance. Now this thread will come down to a whole lotta nothing.
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Ok guys tis the season for a little joy ,and happiness, and peace on earth. You are both good bow makers, and at times we can all be stubborn with our opinions. Pat M. we know you know your stuff, but you can come across brash at times, and HH we can see you make a premium bow with the pics. even with your military jargon which at times we can not understand. I pray more than anything we can beat this virus ,and get back to normal. Merry Xmas to you two,and all. Signed Santa Claus.
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Ok guys tis the season for a little joy ,and happiness, and peace on earth. You are both good bow makers, and at times we can all be stubborn with our opinions. Pat M. we know you know your stuff, but you can come across brash at times, and HH we can see you make a premium bow with the pics. even with your military jargon which at times we can not understand. I pray more than anything we can beat this virus ,and get back to normal. Merry Xmas to you two,and all. Signed Santa Claus.
☝️☝️☝️👌👌😃😃❤️❤️❤️❤️ Amen Brother!!!
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You named your bow “Ante” and you aren’t even going to show us your cards. You have to know you’ll get these comments when you sit down at the table.
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You named your bow “Ante” and you aren’t even going to show us your cards. You have to know you’ll get these comments when you sit down at the table.
That's all I'm saying, regardless of how it comes across. I just don't get the point of adding a bow to a topic of known reason and then dodging the whole point.
Just post it as a bow on its own and decline if asked for details beyond the pics if you're too timid to play ball.
To be offended to ante up is bizarre.
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Come Again?
We're in the Recurve Shootout Arvin started.
Shawn~
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I didn’t start chit! Or didn’t mean too. But if a corn field will get the answers ? Let’s go to the corn field. Arvin
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Al right boys , play nice. ::) Seems everyone is a little stressed right now but please don't bring it here. :) It's all about learning and having some fun with like minded people. Don't take it so serious , life is to short. (SH)
Pappy
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You had your chance. Now this thread will come down to a whole lotta nothing.
Glad to know we’re working off your hour glass.
I think you better find another stoop to poop on partner. Not much in mood today.
You should take heed of this and lend your presence to some other who likes to hear your suk run.
Shawn~
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It’s interesting to read these posts from an unbiased prospective. I can truly see both sides of the bicker.
Myself and others read this to see the outcomes of these bowyers endeavors. Mild good natured bickering is good as it presents different perspectives, Even if the parties doing the bickering are too closed minded to see Others perspectives at the time, they may reflect back as long as they ain’t too butt hurt over the argument. Regardless it is good for bystanders wanting to educate themselves to hear both sides of a debate. Often it boils down to what breed of coonhound is the best and there is no answer.
There is always two sides to an argument, and bystanders typically pick a side; I don’t particularly see the reason for this one. And I’ll explain from my perspective.
I believe that some took hedge to be saying that certain bows he makes are better or faster than theirs. I don’t think that he meant it as such. I think he meant that he can tell which bows if his performs better and that’s good enough for him, he doesn’t need to prove to himself with numbers and don’t feel obligated to prove to others as his bows just need to suit him. He joined in the recurve build threads to build a bow similar to others being built and join in the discussion not to prove anything. I may be wrong on that take, but I understand that mentality. There are bows on my rack that are the fastest I’ve built. Also bows that are the slowest I’ve ever shot, the fast ones suit me and I still appreciate the effort I put in to the slow ones. I do not need numbers to discern which is which. There are some bows in my rack that I think are fast, and I couldn’t tell you which is fastest, I would need a measured number to do so, but I don’t care that much.
I believe the other take on this argument is that numbers are needed to prove out a bow or design and that Shawn was somehow challenging that due to the way he presented his views. I can see that, and I am appreciative of the test the design mentality. If it weren’t for that mentality and what I’ve learned from it, I would have nothing but dogs on my rack and think that self bows are just dogs.
Both sides are right, you need to test and measure to constantly improve. You do not have to test and measure to know a bow is fast enough to suit your taste and needs.
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That's a lot of typing.
The man made a statement and was willing to bet. When asked to back it up he seems to want to fold.
We're quite interested in pretty simple "how far does my bow shoot" comparisons. Especially when vociferous opinions are offered.
If you're not willing to be called, don't belly up to the table and ante up. Pretty simple.
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If we are betting on the speed of bows, we do need numbers eventually. But it can take months, if not years, to come up with those numbers. It has been ten years since I wanted to make a self-bow shooting 170 FPS. I might have one or two already if I simply push the limit of certain bows. But I am too lazy to set up my "primitive" shooting machine properly to know for sure. I am only beginning to make matching arrows for certain bows. It takes time to make exceptional bows. Let's be patient with each other.
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I just want to see how you do with the bow :)
No ego's needed just some photos :)
We are all in this game together better to get on than let petty 'feelings' get in the way of the bigger picture :)
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Claims have been made by a specific individual and have not been backed up and no confidence that they will be backed up in the future is what it comes down to. Can’t enter the speed discussion and make claims without backing it up with empirical evidence. Otherwise any man can do as he pleases.
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Pat yer a real Piece of work. I did and don't wanna bet you I'de rather just have a friendly five minutes in the circle or cage. I said "I'll bet this flat stick will fly farther than my recurve build just based off wood quality". Had nothing to do with you. WTFAY anyhow?You dont have dog in the hunt, chair at the table or cards in yer hand.
I agree Morgan has it about right on all accounts. You can talk all the digit-world chit you want but at the end of the day yer not scrapin the white off rice Pard. So, go put yer nose in some other pile crap cuz I've had about enough of yours.
Shawn~
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Well at least you're admitting it's a pile. No argument there.
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One thing I’ve always enjoyed about this sight was the lack of pointed bickering that goes on on many other sites. Really hate to see it show up here. I don’t really care who has the biggest di**. Let’s just share our experiences, bow building beliefs and knowledge, and get along and not act like a bunch of school boys itching for a fight.
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Let’s just share our experiences, bow building beliefs and knowledge.
That's exactly what we were trying for, with a bit less emphasis on belief.
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Got Ante about floored. Decide on tips? Rocker blades or cut in's? May have to go with some Checheon from my Chosin friend. If I can pinch some off from him.
Yep, think with tips on and long string a few times can get a string on and let it sweat a bit.
HH~
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Looking forward to seeing it up close again, by the way Merry Christmas all. 😉😉 Pappy
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Looking forward to seeing her bend
Bjrogg
Merry Christmas to all
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Its pretty clear Runner that you have some kind of bias and a know a little about everything bow. About the as much as one would get reading the Bowyers Bibles Volumes. I have read your thread here and else where going back 14yrs. In that time I think I have seen three of your same shoot off hand bows. Do you think your the James Parker of the Digit Dark Web?
Here is some Bias from 2007 "Runner' Sounds very similar. Is that P Moss or G Moss
"Why would you consider it any different from a selfbow? Archers shot bows with no shelf for millenia and continue to do so today. A shelf may arguably give you better pinpoint accuracy but has no bearing on your ability to feed yourself or defend yourself with a bow. Go on Youtube and check out Kassai and students shooting accurately off galloping horses and using bows with no shelf. It goes without saying that you need to use a weaker spine off a non-centreshot bow. Unless of course you choose a thumbring. Most of those replica bows are very narrow at the arrow pass anyway".
Let see some of your 300m unbacked 50lb selfbows.
HH~
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Great looking bow Shawn!
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About floored. Has about 2"-2.5" of reflex exluding the hooks.
HH~
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About floored. Has about 2"-2.5" of reflex excluding the hooks.
Probably not enough to stay in the game. How about heat treating the belly now?
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Can, still over 1/2" thick . It'' take that elm stick with zero reflex. All in the wood. Go out in a 90 degree humid day, elm has no chance, none. In desert possibly?
To burn some more reflex would mean building a caul exactly for this bow as it sits for it length. I could do this but I'm thinking with only two folks who bellied up I may leave it as it sets?
HH~
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Can, still over 1/2" thick . It'' take that elm stick with zero reflex. All in the wood. Go out in a 90 degree humid day, elm has no chance, none. In desert possibly?
I'd hate to say that and then be proven wrong. Elm is lighter than Osage and less reflex means even less mass is needed. Some of the best bows I know of are well cooked elm. Design and execution is where the challenge is.
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Made a truck load of em.
Ran one for years and won lots of cash with it. But come high humidity and heat yer done, cooked. Lay chips all in on that day with plenty shooting to go i will take ya to the cashier. Had it happen in a big shoot on Ohio River in dead of summer standing in six inches of thunder storm water and 95 degrees. Was 50 points in lead after 20, then the elm sponge effect.
Its one thing to shoot one arra into the blue with elm. Its another to run it any eeather condition and think its gonna perform like hedge.
Theres a reason why Hedge is king. I learn by get my pockets turned inside out.
Shawn~
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Can, still over 1/2" thick . It'' take that elm stick with zero reflex. All in the wood. Go out in a 90 degree humid day, elm has no chance, none. In desert possibly?
I'd hate to say that and then be proven wrong. Elm is lighter than Osage and less reflex means even less mass is needed. Some of the best bows I know of are well cooked elm. Design and execution is where the challenge is.
You have to take his word for it.
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Light woods can soak up water faster all else equal, but what if the elm bow has a better finish?
If osage is king because it is so dense and soaks up so little water, wouldn't live oak and ipe be even better?
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Not white Oak. It is as bad as Hickory. Contents with in the wood. It is able to fight off rot for years like locust . Yellow wood.
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Isn't trapping is a way of adjusting for a wood's moisture tolerance? Just leave the belly wide and the back narrow for woods like hickory, white oak, and elm in wet climates.
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Looks to me like a pretty good handle already... >:D
For me, I think they are graceful and sexy looking, and the smoothness of draw thru the shot aids in accuracy more than the stabilizing aspects of a long bow. (For me)
My theory is that while it’s true a well designed, near perfect tiller longbow can equal or outperform a well designed, near perfect recurve...I think that most of us (maybe not most on here, because there are some flat-out bad-azz boyers on this site) are not yet where we understand, see, and achieve the near-perfect tiller aspect of building bows yet. And that fact results in the final product not being of “great design.” And I have no science to throw behind this, but it seems like recurves can cover a multitude of sins. While it might be a pile more work, it seems like recurves can add speed back to a bow where minor or major screw ups sapped speed during the progression to completion.
Did that make ANY sense? I’m understanding it in my head much better than I’m communicating it.
Still, it’s primarily a low string angle, smooth non-stacking draw issue for me.
(Sorry...wronged person quoted)
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I was obviously replying to “why recurve if not faster” comment. Wow, I just read this whole thread...did someone slip some acid in my drink? Did I just hit a wormhole and end up on Archery Talk? WTF?
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That may be your experience with elm Hedge but the elm I'm using is Ulmus Glabra. Elms vary quite a bit in properties and wood quality. Once heat treated and tung oiled up. They don't soak moisture up and hold profile as well as osage,yew,ipe,other woods great in the humidity. It may not be particularly warm here but it sure is humid the whole year round.
ssrhythm - Its pretty simple really recurves store more energy (the whole point of recurving :) )due to string angle AND IF you can make the limbs the appropriate width/thickness for the slightly tighter bend WITHOUT losing the return speed of the wood to set....then yes recurves are faster :)
Before anybody starts getting het up and arguing the above it is a statement of provable fact :)
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I would tend to agree Bow. I have two elm bows that between the two, prolly have a million arrows off them. One a Winged and other Slippery. Over the years and as Dean talked about when I felt them getting spongy into the attic they went to dry and then another wax job or coat of oil.
I do like Elm recurves and yes they feel very soft from brace to full draw.
For day to day varying conditions in chance of hot humid weather I leave them on the rack. Cool and cold no problems.
What's Archery Talk anyone know? Is that like Archery Spacebook? Don't do social Dis-media.
Shawn~
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Archery talk is a discussion forum in which people spend a lot of time fighting, bickering and attacking each other about their beliefs about archery and other things. They pretty much only talk about modern compound bows there and it is known as a place where people don't get along very well.
I do not spend any time there but did check it out once. The negativity made me leave very quickly, never to return.
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I'm relatively new at this, but I read that if a recurve outshoots a longbow it's because the longbow has not played it's trump card, the ability to have narrow light limbs.
And I have no science to throw behind this, but it seems like recurves can cover a multitude of sins. While it might be a pile more work, it seems like recurves can add speed back to a bow where minor or major screw ups sapped speed during the progression to completion.
Recurves are higher strained and less stable, so wouldn't any imperfection be magnified on a recurve?
However, I would love to have a recurve for it's size and just because they look great!
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Tradctaft
I think you’ll find the differences are small in the two. If you have say a 26” draw a recurve is a good way to go. The fastest recurve i have that was not gifted away is long, 68-69”. After years of hunting and being strung and shot it has a tiny tiny portion of set in upper just past mid limb of 1/4” maybe. Never lost any weight. I keep it braced 6 3/8 -6.5”. It is without any question the smoothest brace to FD Rig i have. Very very accurate 15 degrees to 95 no matter. The jewel of the King of bow woods i have. One day it’ll give it up. It would prolly never take 500k arrows thru it, but ya know when i just need one good arrow to feed the crying grand babies she’ll be there.
Merry Christmas Fella’s
Shawn
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I need to see that bow! I only draw 24 inch on a good day, please please please post some photos
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Hedge do you make your recurves parallel limb or pyramid?
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Well I got Arvin's speed from his bow build, and distance. According to Badger on distance his did fine. I will let him post the results. Not my place to do that. Thanks Arvin.
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What's Archery Talk anyone know? Is that like Archery Spacebook? Don't do social Dis-media.
Haha like it :)
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This one is parallel to mid limb or a touch more.
Looking for more here.
SHawn~
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Put some more reflex into these billets. Should make a very nice bow but I don't think this particuler wood will hold a ton of it. That's ok by me.
HH~
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Looks very promising. It's time to really baby it. It appears to be still really heavy in physical weight as well as in draw weight. Better not rush to string it or even pulling too much on the tillering tree. Unlike most experts, I prefer to leave it alone for a week after deep heat treating. I like to weigh it at least twice a day. Care to tell us how heavy it is?
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Physical weight? Do not know and I have a 10-12oz very dense block for a riser support that will stay there til bow is ready to come off tiller tree. string weight now after heat is about 200lbs@1".
Yes, no rush to string. Will long string it next week maybe and have a look at inner third. Had iinner flexing OK, then hit it with the heat again. I will put string overlays on next as i am purty sure it'll make a bow but one never knows?
Something to keep me busy fer a bit. I have my friends bow I'm finishing for him after his passing. I want Pappy to get a few scrapes on it as well and take a look. We spoke with Bart of what he was looking to do, and weight, we know his draw length. He had it out to about 17", its out to 24" and about 5-7lbs heavy. So, it's right in the ballpark.
Shawn~
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Thanks. For now relative weight will be fine. Just like to know how the physical weight changes over time, after heat treating.
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That is a great looking recurve! I’m enjoying this thread. I like to build 66”-68” hunting weight bows like yours. Thanks for sharing the photos and process.
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Sure Will
Its not hard to make a 60lb static, just leave everything heavy and you can get t done rather easy. Cept stringing it heavy every time. These fella's here are making Super slingers! Trying to eek out every oz of reflex vs strength /weight for power. So, building a hunt heavy static is no problem but it may only shoot as well a Super at 45lbs. The number one thing that will determine this is the wood and wood properties of the stave or tree it came out of, cure time, etc. You get some Hedge with early late growth with heavy chaulk line even with a good ratio, the chance for maintaining great reflex is poor I have found. This maybe also be my supply of wood now too. Tenn wood is not NW Mizzou Wood or east OK Wood so that may well be just a tree to tree thing or species slightly different and although trees look similar they are different in genetic variation in some way. Who knows?
I have seen heavy dense springy stuff shoot real fast but its way heavy. Then, have seem they dry chaulky Hedge shoot real fast with lower mass weight.
That one I posted earlier was two scraps of un-matched pieces laying around under tin of some old short staves. Also, that recurve I scraped belly purty round on belly corners. I think if I had left it more square it would have had a tad more zip to it.
Shawn~
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Trade...what I mean about covering a multitude of sins...I’ll give an example from my short history of bow making. Once, I let my attention slip a tad and during early tillering, I recognized a weak spotl/ hinge on my bottom limb. Error/sin...so I had to tiller the limb to remove the hinge which limited the limb to whatever the hinge dictated. Then I had to make top limb a tad weaker than bottom...and a bow that woulda come in at 58# came in at 47lbs before any sanding/finishing. So, instead of leaving it as a 45-47# longbow, I put some recurves in it (limbs were plenty wide enough) and voila, I now had a 58# bow. There is no doubt that had I not screwed up, I coulda had the bow shooting in the same ballpark as a 58# longbow...albeit with a more stacking draw.
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Ok, so you corrected the mistake before recurving. That makes more sense. My guess is that is not over strained because the 47# longbow it was laid out like a 58# bow, so it must have had width to spare.
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Heat treat will almost never take out a major tiller flaw. Over time that stiffness from heat will give way some. Specially with white woods. You can as he said save some by flipping or recurving. I'm sure we have all done this but it certianly leaves the "did a pigeon just terd on me feeling"? Been there got the stains.
Come in heavy, get string on heavy, get bow shot in heavy, near end, leave strung for a several hours test weight hope yer heavy. Then sand into weight. What we shoot for. Just dont always work that way.
HH~
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Need to get BJ in here at the table. Didn't you just make a heavy weight static BJ? Can't play with just one at the table. Arvin, you back in?
Oh Yeah, Arvin, that 50lb Orange OK bow is 50@28"ish, not shot in and it's time for a cornfield shot with a tapered 50lb spine 450grn arrow, 4" fletch soon. Just finish up riser and arrow pass. Limbs are thiiiin 10 strand is ready.
Friend of mine dropped me off some Mercado for tips other day. He had a tip bust entirely off bow, I helped him rebuild both tips and he gifted me some purty wood. They fixin to go on Ante so I can put some string nocks on it.
Shanw~
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Shawn I’m sorry I haven’t been able to join in the game. I have been busy spreading poo.
I did a build on Leatherwall. It certainly wasn’t a idea stave but I will see if I can post a few pictures. I have been having trouble posting pictures on PA lately.
Bjrogg
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I'm sure Arvin's going to "Up the Ante". Bow had a semi-catastrophic. He will have another up and running soon im thinkin.
These super's with tons of reflex if truth be known, only work about half the time but you'll never hear that anywhere. Why I wont be crying if some reflex comes out.
I have some good Elm put up but it's no way ready for bow building. Like to thin stave, let sit , thin some more, floor it heavy heavy, then, reflex and recurve then, when it still has a little more than normal bow MC. Then, back in barn or attic til the time is right for a build. Get it at right time with dry heat you can tie knots with the right elm.
HH~
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I agree Shawn. At least for me.
I also really like the little bit at a time. Put them back on the rack for a year method of bow building to.
They do seem to hold their shape better that way.
Bjrogg
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Well, here's Bart's bow I finished out how we spoke he wanted it 66.5" GTG 48@27". Got to find my 90grn BH's for the shot.
The Cornfield Killah. Just burnished it and it will get an Arra thru it for distance soon. No sense in adding finish on limbs to slow it down.
Shawn~
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Bart’s bow is done til I shoot it in. Very high string tension at brace. Rubbed some polymerized linseed oil and beeswax on it for now. Have a 29” 450grn arra to launch in his honor soon. May do it when they fire the three volleys at grave side in KY in Jan. His last bow will be there for his memorial this week im hoping.
Shawn~
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The BART bow looks great Shawn. I bet it shoots that arrow a long ways. Best of luck. Arvin
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Pappy had his hands on Bart Bow yesterday. He liked the color, draw weight and early string weight of it. Has that prehistoric Amber color throughout.
The Ante is waiting for someone to throw in. Has string nock overlays and they are cut. Not really been pulled on yet, just a long string tug to check that hooks are aligning well enough to tiller out. Cut the Osage riser backing block down so when its time I can get into the fades a bit.
Like i was posting earlier with this wood my feeling is the the bow will end up with a rally flat unbraced profile. It very well may keep some relex out in last third if I keep it real stiff out there. Who can say?
Shawn~
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Ante going down that dusty road of tiller soon. Most times when I do a recurve don't use a string in beiginng, use a (cupped cord ) so you can exercise limbs like your using a bow stringer. Well, this goat rodeo is gonna be different. Putting sting nock overlays and grooves in right from the giddy up and use a tiller string to floor exercise.
This Macacauba (not mercado) MarkII gifted me is hard stuff. Like scratching on glass. Guess it should make some tuff tips?
Shawn~
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looking good.
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Last call to throw some chips on table! Where’s Runner aka Patg or M last chance before next down cards are delt?
Arvin, you got wood billets. 2021 Super throw down!?!?
Shawn~
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I'm right here. Who's Pat G? Is there an actual contest going on? I thought you guys were just trying to learn something.
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I'm right here. Who's Pat G? Is there an actual contest going on? I thought you guys were just trying to learn something.
I think the contest is shooting his own bow and saying it’s fast because he said so.
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Just another build with the other poker dogs Runner.
Made enough statics to know “its all about the wood yer gonna use in the end”. Terd wood in, turd bow out. Every once in a while you het a crazy Ivan that surprises.
Got billets? Pony up
HH~
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That's why I'm confused by the "challenge".
I just wanted Arvin to try a static which he has been pursuing pretty well. I already know what they can do.
I do have several on the go. Pretty much every bow I make is a static or near enough.
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Great yer in then.
Post away Ruuner.
We been looking for a round out for a hand or two.
HH~
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Let me puzzle out the picture process on here again. Even the wall is more user friendly for a direct click and send.
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When you been shooting and building bows awhile it does not take Nuclear Power plant Engineer to see what a fast bow is. If yer eye can see the difference between FF and B50or B55 which is 5-7fps on avg, your eye can see a fast bow. Not a difficult thing to see. I can almost always gain about 10fps just from a dynamic release anyway. So what is difference? 160fps bow i can snap a shot 170-172 out of makes it the Vallhala of bows?
A Fast selfbow say 20fps faster than the avg selfbow never put anymore back-straps or roasts in my freezers. If that's what blows yer hair back I'm good with it. We always judge an arrow shot and the bow at the line or stake for accuracy and for speed. That's good enough for me and some really great bowyers and shooters I shoot with regularly.
Throw in Ryan. Sound like you might know what yer talkin about?
Shawn~
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Last heat before it goes on the tree next week. Like I thought, just exercising the limbs on long string took all but some reflex on outter third out. Should make a really really smooth hunting weight bow.
Shawn~
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Interesting I wouldn't have expected you to lose reflex on the long string, maybe a bit but not much?
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Why? Isn't lost reflex the same thing as gaining a little set on a straight limb?
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Like I was saying earlier, Wood quality. Could tell roughing it out. Had a feeling it would not take heat very well. Make a very very nice bow just not a super jet. Now BartBow is a Gem. Wood you see every 5-10yrs "Maybe" and wish you knew where the rest of that tree went!
Go very slow finishing this Ante. Maybe hunt it next fall should make a great 45-50lb hunter.
HH~
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Yes you get a feel for these things after a while :)
Looking forward to seeing it at full draw.
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That's not going to happen for sometime. I will get a string on it and will put it up for a while. I will have full brace pic purty soon and there's where it will stay in the RF-1 position for sometime. Not willing to force it with all that reflex coming out just on long string exercising it. I take that as , the wood has very little spring in it and early late growth has high level of chaulkiness. This kind of Hedge almost never hold a great deal of reflex except in tight radius'.
You can change nature only so much I guess.
HH~
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Its not speed of wood reduction that matters just accuracy :) Not asking you to force anything Hahaha :) Good luck.
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Shawn~
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I am amused by some of the highly technical discussions about this and that on bow making here but wood is wood, you do the best you can with what you have, for me every piece is different, even from the same tree.
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True, but to get the most out of each piece you need to know some technical stuff.
Most people are not actually trying to get the best flat out performance from each piece.
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True, I just go for stable shooters that one can win a national championship with.
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True, I just go for stable shooters that one can win a national championship with.
Eric then there are those that go for both. It all good though. Yes or no?
Arvin
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True, I just go for stable shooters that one can win a national championship with.
It is not the bow it is the person holding it....any decent bow would fit that bill. I know cos I've done it a few times myself eg. bowyer and shooter :) anyroad the arrows are more important than the bow as long as it is at least halfway decent....
To say you don't need to understand the technical stuff and wood is just wood.......well to each his own....
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Impressive list Arvin, I got one in there somewhere ;) :) I guess like Eric I just go for a good shooting bow that will hold together, may know more technical stuff than I think, :-\ but never really think much about it, fun listening to you guys though. :) Bow is looking good Shawn. :)
Pappy
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I added a long post abut my bows but decided to delete it, I didn't mean to hijack Shawn's thread and turn it into a pissing contest.
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It's the whole Art versus Science thing. that I've mentioned before If you kind of dismiss or ignore the Science and still eventually learn to make great bows you are still using the science without realizing it. You don't need to understand it but that doesn't mean it's not happening.
FWIW the tillering gizmo is very much a scientific tool. It allows achieving equal bend stress in an engineering formula that looks like hieroglyphics to most of us.
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Only been one bow since 2015 that's won Selfbow Champ that was not Arvin's and that kid shot the Bejesus out of that bow, Same kind of bow Bob Enlow shoots, Ed Neat.
There is one common thing all those bows had ? They got a place for a arra to set.
Over the course of competition it's just a fact, hard in stone, and it's what the top 10-12 selfbow men in country shoot. Some like to think show ponies can get er done but they do not produce the $ or the Wood over the course of several days. Just the way it is. Also, during that time every winner was shooting Hedge Apple as in OSAGE bows.
Though it has some to do with who's tugging on the string. The Stat's are what they is.
HH~
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Didn't Dan Perry do really well with hickory bows some time back? Of course the dessert is where hickory can really do it's best.
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Eric I was not sure if you where speaking in general of specificly at Shawn’s ability to win the IBO. Shawn has taken some of that money in the selfbow challenge I do believe. Same shooters as the IBO. One dropped bow arm and a miss and your done . And if your Arvin and you have two or three well you should not be there. That does not keep me from trying. I love to compete and the worst thing is you got to shoot with the worlds best and meet them . Yes Eric I will be interested to seeyou list of days gone by. They where good then and they are good now. There’s one thing that I have found true also shooters are shooters. It can be a sling shot , rifle, bow or pea shooter they usually are the best at it. I’m decent but not a champ at it. That’s one reason I’m in flight . I CAN HIT THE EARTH EVERY TIME. The arrow just has to go a long ways. Arvin
PS. Shawn if you want to win that IBO shoot you AW bow. 😁😁😁😁
Sorry I could not help that one Shawn😁😂l
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Didn't Dan Perry do really well with hickory bows some time back? Of course the dessert is where hickory can really do it's best.
Yes hickory has done well there. Chuck has broke some records with hickory recently. Arvin
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That was a nice bull elk Shawn!!! Scores did not count on that one!!! Arvin
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I am a relic of the past, and no longer have that many bows out there, I did at one time. When I had to turn people down that wanted my bows they went elsewhere so my bows dropped off the radar.
People gravitate to what they see everyone else shooting, I did the same back when all the high profile folk were shooting Asbell Bighorn recurves, I had to have one.
I had to slow done on my bow making, osage dust allergies took the fun out of it, right now I can't make any, neck issues make it painful for me to shoot a bow. If you can't shoot them you can't make them.
I had a lot of my customers send me a notice about their wins but I didn't keep track of them.
Hands down Julia Norris has the most wins, that gal can shoot. She bought the first BBO I ever made and did well with it, I have given her bows ever since, she had won more often at Cloverdale than of any other people shooting my bows. Her and Danny are good friends so I have given her bows ever since the first one.
Here she is with a static I made her, she consistently wins with it.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3ABynA.jpg)
My bows national champ wins started with a fellow named Bill Cooksey from Arkansas , that had to be close to 25 years ago, there have been over a dozen more but other than Julia's I didn't keep track of them. One year Julia shot a perfect score at Cloverdale with a bow I supplied, again it is more about the shooter than the bow.
State champs, 40 or 50, I didn't keep track of them, again Julia has been top dog, my late wife and I have a couple each.
I had my day in the sun as a bow maker but the sun has set.
Here are a couple of my guys at the first IBO, Tony and Nolan, second and third. Tony won an osage bow I donated to raise money for the Alabama Children's Hospital, he had $1 invested, he is a dedicated trad guy and shoots all the classes, my bow served him well. Nolan saw Tony's bow and had me make an exact copy for him.
I haven't sold a bow in years, I give them to special people who work their butts off to promote trad tournaments or donate them to charity auctions.
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A footnote on Julia's static, she called me in a panic and told me she cracked the tip and asked if I could fix it, send it on I said.
It wasn't just cracked but I was committed to get her shooting again.
I have posted this before;
From this;
(https://i.imgur.com/gfySHnw.jpg)
To this, it took me whole week to perfectly bend the components to fit without a gap, lots of failures.
(https://i.imgur.com/3YeVx1l.jpg)
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Nice fix, and well made bow. Julia has a unique way of standing to shoot the bow ,but if it works it works.
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That correction job is amazing.
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Thanks for sharing Eric. Yes I know Julia and she is very good. The others I haven’t had the pleasure to have met. Julia can be beat though. Can’t remember if she was as at Arkansas state shoot a few years back . But I think she was when Kris Johnston won with holy bow . A Osage selfbow that you can drop a half dollar thru mid limb. Those two have been battling for the last 2-3 years. Eric I can tell from the fix that’s a beautiful bow. Was it a car door or maybe fast flight. Oh and yes Anti is looking real good Shawn . Great looking brace! Arvin
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She has good days and bad days shooting like the rest of us, she is tough to beat when she is on her game.
She said she did something stupid stringing the bow but didn't elaborate, something to do with a picnic table I think.
I put DF-97 on all my bows and have for about 20 years with no problems, I do put tip overlays on everything I make
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Yep, its what shooters want. Shoot upright, not compromising form or changing it from bow to bow. There is some great Spooky Dust Myth out there in the ether. "you cant have a shelf on a primitive or selfbow".
This Ante will shoot just like my long selfbows, my Brownings, Staghorns, Hoyts, Lee's, Drakes, Cravotta's, Fasco's, AW's, etc. Only change I will make will be in grip pressure. The great thing is a 50lb HedgeHunter will shoot 35-55 spine arrow with no issue but how much weight you want put up front. If i leave it heavy bottom limb you can shoot it 3 under if you wish. Can I shoot a trapziod fashioned or ELB riser where arrow has to pass around the riser? you bet.
When it comes to hunting from stands where deer are hunted a great bit and wise up to any movement at selfbow range you want yer arrow knocked and hanging. 2015-2020 I have literally filled a 40ft container of deer with these type of selfbows on ground and from stand. I can build em anyway I like and have but if it ain't broke why fix it? Proof is in the the freezer. I have deer in 8 freezers currently. Beef....It's not whats fer dinner.
Time has come for the show ponies to see a nice BOW of The Year with a shelf. Wont you agree?
Shawn~
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Hey Eric what s the weight on that static? I know those IBO shooters like them light. 35# is light as I like to go. To easy to have a 20#bow. But that’s me. Arvin
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That's an impressive number of deer Shawn. Is there any limit on them in you area at all? I don't think you're allowed more than 2 or 3 in my area if you're lucky.
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3/day doe
2 bucks max
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3 does a day!? When the food shortages start again I may come down there ;D.
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Hind Tit is a laser.
That hit i put on that last buck was an 11. Left a hecka blood trail. Pappy walked down it maybe 40yds that 6x5 was piled up in the sunny side of ridge.
Ate some steaks from him other day. Couple min on each side, brush of olive oil and pinch of sea salt. Still running on the inside. Melt in mouth.
Shawn~
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Nothing more satisfying than building your own selfbows and using them to fill the freezer with quality wild game. I have been able to accomplish it after a lot of effort and time spent in the bow shop and the woods. I really like your selfbows and you’ve proven that they do everything they need to do. Enjoying this discussion.
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Nothing much new under the sun Will B. Look at a pic of Pope ,and Young's museum bows, and the animals they killed with them. That was a century ago. Most of us could only dream of that kind of hunting success, and their bows were made with top notch wood like Yew, and later Osage, and their bows were top notch even by today's standards. They killed Polar Bear with them. With a good piece of premium wood like Yew ,or Osage you are 70 percent their.
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The Ante next to a Harry Drake semi static.
HH~