Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Black Moshannon on November 26, 2020, 06:55:18 am
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I hear this come up from time to time and have debated this a little with my bow making friend. From my understanding white wood can be cut, reduced, and then dried to a low MC and make the finest bow the wood is capable of making within a week or two. I also know other woods like locust or Osage require a long period of time to let the resins harden and dry out in the wood. But lately I’ve been hearing it mentioned that there is a difference between drying and seasoning, and that this could affect the quality of the finished bow... is there any truth to this?
So say I have a hickory stave and let it sit around for a year in my dry room; Or I take that same stave, reduce it to floor tiller, let it air dry for two weeks and then put it in my dryer getting it down near 6%, then heat treat... which is what I’ve been doing... will this be inferior to the first method? From what I read in the Bowyers Bibles quick dry is no lesser of a method and may be better... but maybe I misinterpreted that...
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An endless debate. A quick dried bow can be excellent and a long cured stave maybe a hair better. Of course a quick dried stave also cures more over time.
White woods shrink with moisture cycling through the seasons and years but they kind of need to be left open and unsealed for that to happen.
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So the key thing is the shrinking of the cells then, when the bow is slow dried? And how would a heat treat affect this because from what I know the cells lose oxygen when the heat treat is applied..
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I have been questioning my knowledge on this, and here is what I was taught a hugely long time ago and have probably twisted in my mind ever since. My memory says that there is a difference between the moisture a tree uses and water. The moisture the tree uses needs to be replaced by water and/or air - this is seasoning. In some trees, like pines, this may not happen for decades - check knots oozing sap in pine frames. The reason I say this is because of the practice of submerging logs in lakes and mill-ponds to season - the sap is eventually displaced by the water, the log is then dries and is much less likely to check as it dries as the water already has less volume than the sap it replaced. Now to free and bound water - free water is the water in cells and between cells, it is easy to remove and can give the impression the wood is seasoned, however, the bound water that is tied up in the cell walls is still present and takes much longer to dry out. Wood is not fully seasoned until that moisture is also removed but because that takes a long time, you can think wood is seasoned when it is not. To me it seems I believe 2 different theories but they end up with the same net result - you can think wood is fully dried out when it ain't.
I will be very happy if someone can untangle my twisted mind!!
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Good question. As we are dealing with an organic material, the answer would be quite complex or even indeterminate. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying We need to narrow the question down to our specific purpose. Are we trying to see which way of drying would result in a better bow material? If so what would be the better bow material? What do we want from drying a certain piece of wood properly? More tensile strength? More compressive strength? Less weight for volume? More hardness? More flexibility. A lot would depend on wood species and worse yet on the specific stave. We need to know what we want from our bow staves in general and what we want from a particular piece of wood at hand.
Assuming that we mainly want to increase the compressive strength of the stave without reducing its tensile strength too much while making it as light as possible, the best option would be taking the stave to the equilibrium moisture content relatively slowly and then heat treat the belly.
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You probably saw my post about the HHB D bow. I read from Marc St. Louis that wood can be quickly dried and made into a good bow, but it takes longer for the resins on the wood to harden, and this is what he called seasoning. He said heat tempering helps the process.
I really hope that my stave is ready, but could it be that HHB is an exception to the fast drying rule? If so, why?
@ stuckinthemud: Now to free and bound water - free water is the water in cells and between cells, it is easy to remove and can give the impression the wood is seasoned, however, the bound water that is tied up in the cell walls is still present and takes much longer to dry out.
I think that if water can escape cells through the cell walls, shouldn't the water in the cell walls be able to escape as well?
@ scp: Assuming that we mainly want to increase the compressive strength of the stave without reducing its tensile strength too much while making it as light as possible, the best option would be taking the stave to the equilibrium moisture content relatively slowly and then heat treat the belly.
Why slowly so long as it gets to equilibrium?
Thanks,
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Only quick dried by reducing stave slowly or Sapling bow is elm. Quick dry elm small dia Saplings make great shooters.
No question seasoned Hedge will out perform just dry . Take sister staves put one up for four years and take other build a bow quick like. Then the debate ends there. With different woods of the world you may have some wiggle gray area.
HH~
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tradcraftsman - yes, but it is tied ('bound') into the structure of the cell wall and cannot move freely, it does eventually move, but it is a long slow drawn out process whereas the free water is not tied into a cell structure but fills all the voids in the wood and so can relatively easily move through it - in fact wood is designed to get the free moisture to travel through it as easily as possible , for example from the roots to the leaves
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In my opinion the difference between dry and seasoned wood it stability. The seasoned stave is less apt to twist or warp than a just dry stave and/or as a bow later. Eventually all wood will season, given time so even a dried piece of wood will become more stable.
A few years back, Charlie Jefferson(RIP Charlie) got into making poplar arrow shafts. Most of the wood he used had been stickered for 2 years before he cut the blanks and made the shafts. These were exceptional shafts. He made a few with only dry wood and most of them moved so much they were unusable for shafts. I've seen the same thing happen to bow staves that were dry but not seasoned. Dry wood, especially dry whitewood will make a good bow but, IMO, seasoned staves make better bows.
Most folks, especially the new guys just want to build a bow and I don't blame them for that. If, when you cut bow wood, get as many staves as you can handle. This way you will have a few staves to work with as dry wood but in a few years you will have seasoned wood. Then you will then see the difference.
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Though I make most of my bows green ,and put on forms I agree with Pat B. Oct 5th I split ,and made 6 Hickory bows finished by Nov 20. Never stopped working on them in different stages 8 to 10 hrs a day. I put some in a hot box, and belly heat treated, and some I fire hardened. The fire hardened bows were more stable, and held more reflex in the end though they all turned out with some reflex , or were at least straight. As I believe in what Pat B has said about seasoned wood, I also believe in Keith Shannon's method of fire hardening after trying it out, and his method was easier ,and took less time from begining to end, and turned out better bows.JMO
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You probably saw my post about the HHB D bow. I read from Marc St. Louis that wood can be quickly dried and made into a good bow, but it takes longer for the resins on the wood to harden, and this is what he called seasoning. He said heat tempering helps the process.
I really hope that my stave is ready, but could it be that HHB is an exception to the fast drying rule? If so, why?
@ stuckinthemud: Now to free and bound water - free water is the water in cells and between cells, it is easy to remove and can give the impression the wood is seasoned, however, the bound water that is tied up in the cell walls is still present and takes much longer to dry out.
I think that if water can escape cells through the cell walls, shouldn't the water in the cell walls be able to escape as well?
@ scp: Assuming that we mainly want to increase the compressive strength of the stave without reducing its tensile strength too much while making it as light as possible, the best option would be taking the stave to the equilibrium moisture content relatively slowly and then heat treat the belly.
Why slowly so long as it gets to equilibrium?
Thanks,
I did see your post on HHb among some others. Luckily I am now accumulating a lot more wood that is getting older and I can see if there will be a difference in a seasoned stave. Some of it is Elm and if what HedgeHunter is saying about Elm is true than the long season didn’t make a difference. The rest is hickory and I’m wondering if that will need a longer dry time. Latest hickory bow will have been finished in about two months.
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I think there is a difference,, just hard to measure it,,
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I also believe in Keith Shannon's method of fire hardening after trying it out, and his method was easier ,and took less time from begining to end, and turned out better bows.
How is this different than heat tempering a belly with coals?
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It is heat tempering the belly with coals, but before that it is drying the bow out in a tent with coals. He makes a green cut Hickory ,Oak, and sweet gum sapling from start to finish bow in three days. Check him out on utube.
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So like a primitive hot box?
Could you do that with a space heater in a small room or in a curtained area?
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Better than a hot box for what ever reason. I hot boxed a couple of the bows I made. Then belly heat treated repeatedly till the belly turned brown. The back of the bows were hot to the touch each time I heat treated them.. I got a few bows that ended up with some reflex, but not like the fire hardening process. All Hickory bows. I am trying White Oak right now,and having a hard time getting it dry enough with the hot box ,and belly heat treat to try, and tiller. That wood is also green.The limbs are moving left ,and right , and twisting. The next 2 white Oaks that I make will be wider, longer, and fire hardened. I really do think I will get better results.
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(-P (-P (-P I always love this topic . To me seasoned is much better, to some it make no difference, dry is dry, and the debate goes on. ;) :)
Pappy
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So the experts consider aged wood to be better, but fast dried works as well? How do they think about kiln dried lumber compares?
I have an 11 month old elm stave that is about a straight as they come, but most of the wood I let age is full of character. (I use the straight stuff first.)
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I think of kiln dried wood as dry wood, not seasoned.
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So like a primitive hot box?
Could you do that with a space heater in a small room or in a curtained area?
Let the wood dry slowly at first. If you rush it too soon you will have drying cracks develop. A good way to monitor this without purchasing expensive moisture meters is to weigh the wood on a kitchen scale, preferably in grams since they are smaller units and will give a better degree of understanding.
Once your wood has slowed down drying, you can begin to push it. One way of doing that is to stand the wood in direct sun in the warmer season. Later, when this doesn't draw the weight down very quickly, you can put the stave in a closed up vehicle in the sun and really finish things off quick. I haew also put a de-humidifier in a small linen closet with the stave. The dehumidifier will raise the temp and lower the humidity, and as a side bonus you get warm towels.
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JW a couple of months ago having done some research before hand I bought a General MM4d. moisture meter on amazon for around 25 bucks. Works great, and gets a top rating.. Wished I would have had it ten years ago. This morning I finally got a 54 inch 45 lb white Oak bow dry enough, and, stable enough to string ,and shoot. Threw it in a hot box for a couple days,and repeatly deep heat treated the belly ,and kept checking with a moisture meter each time. After shooting it for a good long while today it held 1/2 inch reflex. Built that bow from green to finish in 10 days. That moisture meter was a big help in the process. For building bows it is the best 25 dollar investment I have ever made. Every body on here should check it out if you are interested in a moisture meter. Sorry for the long wind.
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I got rid of my meter, I wish now I had kept it around just to have it but I stopped using it.. I started weighing wood and also cutting staves down to floor tiller size so they dried fast and I didn’t have to worry about wood staying wetter inside a bigger stave. None of them have split when I put them into my dryer and when I heat treat. The meter just didn’t really indicate how dry the wood was inside I don’t believe. I like focusing on the process of drying the wood and trusting the process rather than electronics. I do own a humidity and temp monitor though.
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I feel strongly both ways. :)
All kidding aside, kiln dried wood makes awesome bows. You betcha and I know that for a fact. Some of my best and quickest bows were made from kiln dried.
Jawge
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I sold my moisture meter years ago and never regretted it. I go by feel and sound as I'm working the stave plus I'm sure the wood has seasoned for a year at least before I start. Most of my bow building(not much any more) is done in winter and between sessions I put the to-be bow near my wood stove, or in a hot box to keep it dry between sessions. I also seal the ends early on and the back every time I remove wood to establish a good, clean back ring. I use shellac for this as I work on the bow. Even seasoned wood will hit moisture equilibrium during the process and as the wood dries back out it can check. I like spray shellac and keep a can on my work bench because it dries quick, seals well and can be easily removed if necessary or sealed over.