Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on July 10, 2020, 08:52:54 am
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I was watching one of Del's videos and noticed that he was keeping a tally of trips to the tree. Got me thinking. I use a Torges type scraper and I'm wondering if it's removing wood too fast. On the average I've noticed that I get somewhere in the neighbourhood of one inch of drawlength gain on every scraping session. This is when I'm tillering for weight loss, not when I'm correcting some little thing. Does that jive with the drawlength gain you get for every trip to the tree?
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Once I get into final tillering I think I pick up no more than about 1/4" per trip. Nothing wrong with going faster if you know exactly where the wood needs to come off. I used to think of it as removing wood to loose weight for final draw weight. Now I just think of myself as perfecting tiller until I hit final draw length and have to stop. I hate it when I hit perfect tiller too soon because it makes it harder to find spots to remove wood.
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I hate it when I hit perfect tiller too soon
I can think of a few thing I hate worse >:(
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I've been using your perfecting method and I really like it but I just seem to overshoot my mark. Everything will be going fine and then there's a thin spot. Usually on one side of the bow so I'm not holding the scraper level. I would use a cabinet scraper if I could but my hands won't take it. Tie that in with not being able to stand a dull scraper. The feeling of a scraper skating across the surface drives me nuts. So I'll have to get some self control and limit myself to one or two scrapes.
When you are scraping what do you hold the bow with? A bench vice? When the bow is in the vice(or what ever) can you get at both sides? Do you, or do you do all your scraping from one side?
I'm finding these RD's quite difficult to tiller, especially if the limb gets thin, so any fine nuances that people have would be a help. :)
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I hate it when I hit perfect tiller too soon
I can think of a few thing I hate worse >:(
I'm with Willie here but I can understand what you're getting at. There you are at 10" draw with a beautiful bend and the only place to remove wood is-- everywhere ;D
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I was watching one of Del's videos and noticed that he was keeping a tally of trips to the tree. Got me thinking. I use a Torges type scraper and I'm wondering if it's removing wood too fast. On the average I've noticed that I get somewhere in the neighbourhood of one inch of drawlength gain on every scraping session. This is when I'm tillering for weight loss, not when I'm correcting some little thing. Does that jive with the drawlength gain you get for every trip to the tree?
What is a Torges type scraper? Have you ever measured how much wood you are taking off with a caliper? Why would counting the trips to the tree matter to anything? 1" of draw length for each scraping session doesn't sound like too much to me if you are trying to knock weight off.
Mark
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It's kind of a cross between a spoke shave and a cabinet scraper. Hang on, I'll take a picture---There ya go ;D I like it because I have arthritis in my thumbs and a cabinet scraper does me in.
Counting trips just made me think about how much wood I was taking off each trip and made me wonder if I was taking off too much and losing track. Especially when the limb is thin just one or two scrapes can make the difference between good job and a hinge
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sometimes when I get close, I just use a small sheath knife and only pick up the bow occasionally when I am not too rushed. more time measuring and looking at tiller than scraping.
what looked good last nite, is seen in a new light in the morning over coffee
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Yep.
I have Dean's Bowyer's Edge tool and use it a good bit, but if the tiller is close and I'm just inching it down the tree I like a regular cabinet/card scraper. I seem to get a better feel for what I'm accomplishing with each stroke. Also, on some bow's like the snakey one I'm working on now, the Bowyer's Edge won't work right in all those bends.
I never bothered to count trips to the tree or how many work sessions it takes to move another inch. I'm probably the world's slowest tillerer... and I'm ok with that.
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It's kind of a cross between a spoke shave and a cabinet scraper. Hang on, I'll take a picture---There ya go ;D I like it because I have arthritis in my thumbs and a cabinet scraper does me in.
Ah, similar to a standard scraper with a holder. I use a scraper I made out of an old circular saw blade. It is thick enough it doesn't bend at all, unlike a regular card scraper. Instead of a bend, I put a radius on one edge (the edge has an arc to it instead of a straight line) and it presents to the wood very similar to the card scraper when it is bent a bit. Mine is way easier on the fingers because all I have to do is drag it on the wood instead of forcing the bend at the same time.
Mark
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I was watching one of Del's videos and noticed that he was keeping a tally of trips to the tree. Got me thinking. I use a Torges type scraper and I'm wondering if it's removing wood too fast. On the average I've noticed that I get somewhere in the neighbourhood of one inch of drawlength gain on every scraping session. This is when I'm tillering for weight loss, not when I'm correcting some little thing. Does that jive with the drawlength gain you get for every trip to the tree?
What is a Torges type scraper? Have you ever measured how much wood you are taking off with a caliper? Why would counting the trips to the tree matter to anything? 1" of draw length for each scraping session doesn't sound like too much to me if you are trying to knock weight off.
Mark
I was just counting my trips to the tree, 'cos my guess is that a lot of newbies don't do enough checking or exercising the bow.
One guy I was helping, just got hypnotised by the soothing process of using a spokeshave... left to his own devices he'd have gone right through the limb ;D :o ::)
In my vids, I just show how I do it... I'm always at pains to say there are other ways, gotta find what works for you :)
Del
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On the long string I alternate a surform or rasp with a scraper-like tool. Once I string the stave for the first time I use only a scraper-like tool. No aggressive removal tool. I count the strokes...usually 20-25 and then check tiller.
I exercise the stave 10-15 times at short pulls to let the wood removal register.
Jawge
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If I need to take off 10-15 pounds and the limbs are pretty straight I use the 4x36 sander or disc sander. It’s just wood that needs to be removed. I’m lazy and have a sander. I also use scraper from planer blade, French curve scraper if need be, not picky about how it comes off . Arvin
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If I was working on a bow of lower weight and less material I'd just be sanding instead of scraping, especially if it was overall reduction.
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What PatM said. Taught myself a few costly lessons final tillering lightweight bows especially kids bows.
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Hand sanding, Pat, or would you use an orbital or something?
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Just hand sanding with the sheet held flattish across my palm.
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I was just counting my trips to the tree, 'cos my guess is that a lot of newbies don't do enough checking or exercising the bow.
I would guess you are correct. It is super hard to patiently take a few scrapes, then check it, then a few more, etc.
In my vids, I just show how I do it... I'm always at pains to say there are other ways, gotta find what works for you :)
I wasn't criticizing, just wondering what I was missing regarding counting trips to the tree. I think I would get depressed realizing how many times I went back and forth from the bench to the tree. There surely are dozens of ways to skin most of these cats.
When you are scraping what do you hold the bow with? A bench vice? When the bow is in the vice(or what ever) can you get at both sides? Do you, or do you do all your scraping from one side?
I missed this one earlier. I don't have a vise in my wood shop, I clamp the bow down to the top of my bench so that I can scrape from the end of the bench with a straight pull from the handle to the tip while standing at the tip. I still have to be extremely careful to not scrape in a side to side taper. On my last bow I found it very helpful to use a set of calipers to measure the thickness as I scraped, marking high spots and areas to leave alone. The pros can laugh at that, but it made it a lot easier for me to not screw up an area with my inexperience.
Mark
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DC for keeping track of how much wood i remove i draw diagonal lines across the entire area that i'm removing from, once my pencil marks are gone i stop.
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I use a scraper I made out of an old circular saw blade. It is thick enough it doesn't bend at all, unlike a regular card scraper. Instead of a bend, I put a radius on one edge (the edge has an arc to it instead of a straight line) and it presents to the wood very similar to the card scraper when it is bent a bit. Mine is way easier on the fingers because all I have to do is drag it on the wood instead of forcing the bend at the same time.
Mark
I like that... I have regular card scrapers and one of those curved ones shaped like a comma. Your heavy duty slightly curved one sounds like a good move :)
Del
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How can I find this video by del? I'm tillering a bow now and it might be helpful to me :BB
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http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/
Go right back to the beginning and read the whole blog. You won't regret it :D
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I go to the carbide goose-neck scraper often immediately after the band saw for most of flat bows. I do 50 strokes each limb and check the tiller. Once stringed, I even use the scraper while the stringed bow is held belly up in a woodworking vise in the tillering tree. I know most experts here are against scraping the bow while stringed. But this way I can easily check the tiller after just one scrape, if I want. But at the final tillering stage, I prefer to shoot the bow several times after more than a few scrapes. At this stage I will probably be using a detail sander instead, really carefully on the stringed bow.
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Thanks for all the advice. I used the sandpaper. 25 strokes on each limb got me about 3/8 to 1/2" of DL each trip to the tree. Slowed me down enough that I got it to 42@28 and the tiller looks good. I had one spot that looked a little hingey but since I was going slow I caught it in plenty of time. The last 3 or 4" went nice and smooth. With 42# I've still got room to fix anything that comes up. And the good news. Solid, scale on pounds, arrow weight double checked, draw length of bow and release trigger on the machine checked. 204fps@10gpp repeated 10 times, with a bunch of 203's as backup. ;D ;D ;D
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And the good news. Solid, scale on pounds, arrow weight double checked, draw length of bow and release trigger on the machine checked. 204fps@10gpp repeated 10 times, with a bunch of 203's as backup. ;D ;D ;D
Outstanding, congrats. That is amazing for a wood bow, especially doing it repeatedly with no drop off in performance.
Mark
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Thanks Mark. We'll see what happens in the next few days. It's been rainy the last few days, I wonder if sticking it in the hot box would make much difference? i guess the 10gpp is the big leveller though.
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And the good news. Solid, scale on pounds, arrow weight double checked, draw length of bow and release trigger on the machine checked. 204fps@10gpp repeated 10 times, with a bunch of 203's as backup. ;D ;D ;D
Congratulations. Historic achievement.
Do you mind telling us all about the bow (mainly specs) once more here? I do not follow all your threads all the time. I also like to know a little more about your shooting machine. Thanks.
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That's great. I think the original 200fps challenge was just for a pure self bow though.
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I think Don just needs some more time for that. Most FG guys would be very proud of 200+ :OK
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Most FG guys would be very proud of 200+ :OK
Especially at 10GPP, most of them seem to test at 8-9GPP at the highest.
Mark
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That's great. I think the original 200fps challenge was just for a pure self bow though.
That seems impossible to me but there is probably someone out there that can do it. :D :D
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Wow! Very impressive DC. Congrats on your accomplishment.
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Yes come on DC show us the bow :)
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It's very similar to all the other bows I've posted. 1 3/8 wide tapering to 1" at 19" and then to 3/8" at the tips. 42#@28". Boo backed Yew. I trapped the back, Thanks Bownarra. Bow weighs 420 grams. It had 6 1/8" reflex right after glue up. It's 5 3/4" right now after an overnight sit. It has been 5"-5 1/2" right after unbracing. The set it did take was in the 6" right out of the fades. I had barely enough wood there. In hindsight a power lam may have been in order but I did keep all my heat treat in that area. Oh, I heat treated the belly piece very dark and from both sides. The right (top) limb took the most set so the unbraced and 20" draw pics don't look right. The set didn't happen until the last 2-3" s I didn't try and sort it out. If I could have kept both limbs the same as the left(bottom) limb I think there may have been another couple of fps in it. I'll start pumping arrows through it today as long as my arms last. Haven't been shooting much. I only draw 26-27" when I'm shooting so it shouldn't stress it too much. We'll see.
Thanks for the comments.
Scp- I think I'll do a separate thread on the machine. Maybe in "How To's"
PS The last two pics were taken before it took the set.
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It's very similar to all the other bows I've posted. 1 3/8 wide tapering to 1" at 19" and then to 3/8" at the tips. 42#@28". Boo backed Yew. I trapped the back, Thanks Bownarra. Bow weighs 420 grams. It had 6 1/8" reflex right after glue up. It's 5 3/4" right now after an overnight sit. It has been 5"-5 1/2" right after unbracing.
How long is it? How long is the string? How much did you trap it?
Oh, I heat treated the belly piece very dark and from both sides.
With a heat gun? How thick was the belly lam? This bow had 3 lams, correct?
Once you have shot it some I think you should pretty it up and take some glamour pics for us to admire. Your ocean spray bow was beautiful, having one that nice looking that shoots over 200fps would be a really great thing.
Mark
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Oops-
66" long Trapped about 1/4". 1/8" on each side.
Yes with a heat gun. I'm thinking about building an oven. Our kitchen oven will only go to 29" long. Belly piece(don't like to call it a lam for some reason) was 3/8" thick. Belly and back, 2 "lams".
Yeah I'll tart it up a bit if it lasts ;D
PS I just realised that I used my radiant heater to heat treat this one. This is the next bow :D
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I had it in the hot box all night at 40%RH@ 80°f. It shot 201 fps this morning. Then I went out back and shot it 35 times and then the mosquitoes and soreness made me come in :D. Then it shot 202fps. I unbraced it and the reflex was 4 7/8". It was 5 3/4 before bracing so that's 7/8" set. Now after ten minutes it's 5 1/4". So it's a bit mushy. It shoots very nice :D
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I put a couple of coats of "Tung"oil on it and set it out in the sun to dry. Forgot about it and it sat out, under the eaves, all night. Tested it this morning and got 198-199. Shot it 50 times and retested 198-199. I don't know if sitting out all night affected it.
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Tested it this morning and got 198-199. Shot it 50 times and retested 198-199. I don't know if sitting out all night affected it.
Have you moved the chrono since yesterday? it might be precise, but not that accurate
whats the difference you ask?
https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-accuracy-and-precision-609328
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I'm hoping it's both ;D. I haven't moved it but I did turn it off and back on again. :)
What I think is strange is that the bow doesn't lose weight when I shoot it but it did just sitting there, twice.
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Wow DC big congrats on breaking the sound barrier! Well done - amazing!
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It's gotta last more than a couple of days ;D
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Left it out in the sun all day to dry another coat of tung oil then I tested it again. Back up to 203.