Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: AndyTurner on June 24, 2020, 05:56:54 am

Title: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 24, 2020, 05:56:54 am
Hi,

If we back a bow to prevent splinters lifting on the backside, which is under tension, then why don't we do the same thing for the belly of the bow where the wood fibres are under compression? Surely they are prone to some sort rupture as well?

Thank you for all input in advance! 

Andy
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: BAfromPA on June 24, 2020, 06:14:02 am
There are plenty of examples of adding a belly lam to a bow. Sometimes to increase the weight or due to bad tillering causing frets. The most extreme examples are the horn bellied composite bows.
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 24, 2020, 06:39:28 am
There are plenty of examples of adding a belly lam to a bow. Sometimes to increase the weight or due to bad tillering causing frets. The most extreme examples are the horn bellied composite bows.

Hi. Thanks for response.
Hmmm but a belly lam like wood/horn/fiberglass etc would do work right, so therefore not there to "protect" the bow.
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: PatM on June 24, 2020, 06:40:47 am
 The initial material is supposed to be able to do that.     A bow tends to be backed because the initial choice needs help.
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: Marc St Louis on June 24, 2020, 07:19:46 am
Hi,

If we back a bow to prevent splinters lifting on the backside, which is under tension, then why don't we do the same thing for the belly of the bow where the wood fibres are under compression? Surely they are prone to some sort rupture as well?

Thank you for all input in advance! 

Andy

Only chrysals and that is due to over-stressing the wood.  For the wood to splinter on the belly the splinter would have to drive itself further into the wood
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 24, 2020, 07:28:24 am
Thanks Pat

Thanks Marc. Marc please can you explain, "Only chrysals and that is due to over-stressing the wood." - I have no idea!!!
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: PatM on June 24, 2020, 08:20:57 am
Compression fractures where the wood cells get squeezed to failure. 

 I also think plate tectonic failures happen due to wood grain abruptly changing direction in the working limb.   Less of an issue with perfect tiller since marc is less concerned with this, but still we see it fairly often.

 
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: mmattockx on June 24, 2020, 09:51:38 am
Thanks Marc. Marc please can you explain, "Only chrysals and that is due to over-stressing the wood." - I have no idea!!!

What Marc means is that belly wood only fails in compression, which forms chrysals. Only tension will lift splinters so the belly wood never fails that way and it is not a concern on the belly.


Mark
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: bownarra on June 25, 2020, 12:59:55 am
Because there is no need and no.
Just go and bend some wood ;)
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 25, 2020, 04:04:25 am
Because there is no need and no.
Just go and bend some wood ;)

attached! ;)
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 25, 2020, 04:08:14 am
Thanks Marc. Marc please can you explain, "Only chrysals and that is due to over-stressing the wood." - I have no idea!!!

What Marc means is that belly wood only fails in compression, which forms chrysals. Only tension will lift splinters so the belly wood never fails that way and it is not a concern on the belly.


Mark

Ok so what are chrysais?
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: PatM on June 25, 2020, 07:56:40 am
Visible compression damage usually in the form of lines that look like slightly diagonal or across the belly scratches.
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: mmattockx on June 25, 2020, 11:41:33 am
Ok so what are chrysais?

As PatM says, they are compression fractures on the surface of the belly wood. This pic shows a very badly chrysaled bow:

(https://www.startpage.com/av/proxy-image?piurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fdelsbows%2Fhome%2Fhazel-primitive-bows%2Fchrysals.jpg%3Fattredirects%3D0&sp=1593104612Tee638dcfa7d6f2cb621f42df26ea94fc50d14089cfab1508b9ae46847067fd93)


Mark
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 25, 2020, 02:47:18 pm
Ok so what are chrysais?

As PatM says, they are compression fractures on the surface of the belly wood. This pic shows a very badly chrysaled bow:

(https://www.startpage.com/av/proxy-image?piurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fdelsbows%2Fhome%2Fhazel-primitive-bows%2Fchrysals.jpg%3Fattredirects%3D0&sp=1593104612Tee638dcfa7d6f2cb621f42df26ea94fc50d14089cfab1508b9ae46847067fd93)

Mark

Hi Mark, sorry but I can't see the pic.
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: mmattockx on June 25, 2020, 11:02:33 pm
Hi Mark, sorry but I can't see the pic.

Some days the interwebs aren't all they are cracked up to be... Let's try this one:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hhGv1cZrP9E/TCjsdGQ57SI/AAAAAAAAAKU/e1aTVyO6Aw8/s1600/chrysals.jpg)


Mark
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: bubbles on June 25, 2020, 11:23:32 pm
Hi Mark, sorry but I can't see the pic.

Some days the interwebs aren't all they are cracked up to be... Let's try this one:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hhGv1cZrP9E/TCjsdGQ57SI/AAAAAAAAAKU/e1aTVyO6Aw8/s1600/chrysals.jpg)


Mark
Woweee that's some impressive  chrysalling! What wood is that?
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: bownarra on June 26, 2020, 12:19:19 am
That looks like a bow that has been bent backwards.
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: AndyTurner on June 26, 2020, 12:50:58 am
Hi Mark, sorry but I can't see the pic.

Some days the interwebs aren't all they are cracked up to be... Let's try this one:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hhGv1cZrP9E/TCjsdGQ57SI/AAAAAAAAAKU/e1aTVyO6Aw8/s1600/chrysals.jpg)


Mark

Hey Mark - thanks for that. I'm sure I've seen something like that on the bellys of the rattan bows I made. I understand now.

Thank you & have a great day,
Andy
Title: Re: Dumb question on "Belly side"
Post by: mmattockx on June 26, 2020, 08:53:55 am
Woweee that's some impressive  chrysalling! What wood is that?

That looks like a bow that has been bent backwards.

I can't say anything about it, it was just a random picture google found that really showed the chrysals. It is from this site:

http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2010/06/


Mark