Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: artcher1 on February 13, 2020, 08:53:05 am
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I brought this topic up in another thread so I figured I'd expand on it a little bit. I've noticed about 80-90% of all Flemish strings are constructed counter clock-wise. I build mine in reverse or clock-wise because the string material is twisted like that. It was suggested that I do some testing to see if there is indeed a difference between CCW or CW twisted string. Here's my results making two 64" B-55 Flemish twist strings, one clock-wise and the other counter clock-wise.
CW: 40 twist/first bracing 6 1/2". Bow depressed over my thighs to stretch out the string. Brace height now 5 3/4". One hour strung 5 5/8"
CCW: 40 twist/first bracing 4 1/8"- 30 more twist 4 1/2"-and then 40 more twist, brace is now 5 5/8". 20 more twist takes the brace height to 6 3/16". Bow depressed over the thighs to stretch out the string. Brace height is now back down to 5 3/8". One hour strung 5 1/4".
Conclusion: If my math is correct, it takes an additional 90 or more twist in a CCW string compared to a CW string of the same length. Performance wise between the different twist, can't test that myself, I can no longer draw a bow...…….Art
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Dang Artsy! That is a great experiment and answers a few questions. I use all low stretch string material and they don't creep more than an 1/8-or 1/4" max, I am a CCW maker, that 80-90% you mentioned. That being said, anybody that uses B50/55 should start twisting the other way based off what I read above.
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Pearly, I was wanting to do the test with some low stretch material as well but I'm out of the stuff. Hey, how about you try a CW with the low stretch material you have? Would be interesting to know...….Art
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Nice thanks for sharing
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If I'm following you doesn't that also mean that with a CCW twist you could start with less(shorter) strands and end up with a lighter string?
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Yep!
I'm thinking I've have to shorten the CCW string up by 1 1/2" to 2" to maintain the same amount of twist as the CW string. But still, I believe the benefit of that would be off-set by additional unwinding of the individual strands as the bow is put under a load/drawn.....Art
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I've just run out of FF so I can't look at it but I don't remember it having any twist. I just looked at the D97 I got and it has a CW twist. I'm thinking the way to do this is to untwist it it before you start. I'm a lefty so I twist CW.
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I was thinking the same thing DC. I disassembled/untwisted a strand of B-50 one time and it grew 3/16" in 16". May be less for low stretch material. I'm a righty and it's a whole lot more natural for me to twist CW..…..Art
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so does one string weigh more than the other :-\
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Right now both strings weigh the same Brad. CW string has 40 twist and the CCW string is twisted about as tight as you can twist one. Shorten up the CCW string an 1" or 2" to achieve a 40 twist string, and yes, it would weigh less compared to the CW twisted string.
Personally, I would rather have a little heavier string that gets taut as it's being twisted up vs one where the strands relax as it's being twisted up...….Art
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In order to conclude anything, this would need to be repeated many more times. My guess why strings are 80-90% CCW is because the population is mostly right handed, so most of us would construct the string in that manner. I wouldn’t think twisting a material in the opposite direction would have any affect on it strength. Not saying it not worth more testing, definitely an interesting observation.
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well just the weight difference,, is interesting,,
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I agree HD, it's not a strength issue at all. More of a question of a "more taut string vs a less taut string" and if it has any performance value. Seems like it would...…....Art
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From a speed point of view I've always thought that less twists is better. More twist would introduce more stretch. I'm talking about the bouncy kind of stretch that recovers immediately. I try and keep my strings down to less than 1 twist per inch.
While we're talking/typing does anyone have some FF at hand? Can you look and see if it has any twist right off the roll?
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In order to conclude anything, this would need to be repeated many more times. My guess why strings are 80-90% CCW is because the population is mostly right handed, so most of us would construct the string in that manner. I wouldn’t think twisting a material in the opposite direction would have any affect on it strength. Not saying it not worth more testing, definitely an interesting observation.
I agree. I think it would be interesting to have right and left handed people repeat the experiment and see if there's a correlation to the dominant hand.
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I don’t know Jack about Flemish twist strings. CN someone explain how the direction of twist affects the bow depending on if the person shooting is left or right handed?
And how would a two strings built the same except for the direction of twist react so differently
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Honestly, this is my first CCW Flemish string. I've made hundreds and hundreds of the CW twist. Believe me, it was a struggle trying to do this in reverse. I know I caught myself a number of times twisting the wrong way and having to back up. So I agree, it would be best to have others try this for themselves and post their results.
aznboi3644, I think you'll see a little less initial string stretch if you construct a string with the same twist as the material you're using. Once a string settles in, I really can't say if there's a benefit one way or the other. I've never shot a bow with any other twist but the CW twist......Art
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My guess is that this would make a tiny difference in speed. The 2" shorter will make the string lighter therefore faster but probably not even measurable. The increased stretchyness may have more effect. I'm remembering a while back Alan Case posted a computer simulation of something(my mind is gone). When he put in a no stretch string(imaginary) he got really good results but as soon as he put in a string with a little stretch (real world) the results went way down. I'll look for it. In your day to day shooting I don't think you would notice any difference between the two strings.
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I brought this topic up in another thread so I figured I'd expand on it a little bit. I've noticed about 80-90% of all Flemish strings are constructed counter clock-wise. I build mine in reverse or clock-wise because the string material is twisted like that. It was suggested that I do some testing to see if there is indeed a difference between CCW or CW twisted string. Here's my results making two 64" B-55 Flemish twist strings, one clock-wise and the other counter clock-wise.
CW: 40 twist/first bracing 6 1/2". Bow depressed over my thighs to stretch out the string. Brace height now 5 3/4". One hour strung 5 5/8"
CCW: 40 twist/first bracing 4 1/8"- 30 more twist 4 1/2"-and then 40 more twist, brace is now 5 5/8". 20 more twist takes the brace height to 6 3/16". Bow depressed over the thighs to stretch out the string. Brace height is now back down to 5 3/8". One hour strung 5 1/4".
Conclusion: If my math is correct, it takes an additional 90 or more twist in a CCW string compared to a CW string of the same length. Performance wise between the different twist, can't test that myself, I can no longer draw a bow...…….Art
I don't know about dacron, never really noticed, but from what I have seen, from the different types I have on hand, low stretch material has no twist in it to start with or if it does it is so slight as to be unnoticeable.
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I have noticed the string with fewer twist seems to give conistant chrono results quicker..
Or does not seem to take as long to settle in,.
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I think I'll redo the test. After a restless night thinking about this, it doesn't seem logically that there's that much difference between the CW and CCW twist. But logic does dictate that if you twist in the direction that the material is twisted to begin with that it becomes shorter.
And therefor will unravel and lengthen if twisted in the opposite direction.
Marc, I don't have a lot of samples to study, but the B-50 B55 FF D-97 and 450 plus I have all show a clockwise twist. Barely noticeable in the smaller diameter low stretch material, more so in the larger diameter Dacron material......Art
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I do a CW twist, just because that is how I taught myself, just didn't know any better, I found out later that most do a CCW twist but like you said had to change. I have found fewer twist is much better, maybe 3 per inch. If you have to twist it up a lot to adjust the length it turns into a coil spring. Other than that can't tell much difference in the way it is twisted.
Pappy
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I have a new roll of FF and I pulled the strand into because it very hard to tell, but it does have a CW twist to it.
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Interesting conversation, Art.
I use B-50, B-55 and make 2 bundle strings. I twist the bundles clockwise and the string counter clockwise. Just the way I've always done it.
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Pat, I've always shot with a large group of guys as you know, and one or two of them would sometimes have a new string and needed a string nock. Before I placed a nock on their string, I always, out of habit, depressed the bow over my lap to stretch their string out. Well, the bottom would drop out of their brace height. That was never the case with my strings. In those days we all used the Dacron strings. Only difference in our strings was the manner of twist.
Even here on the boards, when you start talking about Dacron strings, some guys are very satisfied with this type of material, and others hate the stretchiness of the material. Perhaps the manner of twist has some bearing on that....Art
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Interesting conversation, Art.
I use B-50, B-55 and make 2 bundle strings. I twist the bundles clockwise and the string counter clockwise. Just the way I've always done it.
Me too, I'm kind of a closet lefty so I never know for sure if I'm doing things right or left handed. Are you a righty Pat?
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Yes, I'm right handed.
When I'm twisting a string I take the end on a bundle, lay it across my knee and roll it out with the palm of my hand. This gives me a clockwise twist. When twisting the bundles I go the other way(counter clockwise) so I have a reverse twist.
I also onlr twist in the top loop and tie a bowyers knot for the bottom. I don't know if this matters or not.