Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Russ on November 11, 2019, 12:00:02 pm
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So lets say the arrow is going perfectly to the heart, the deer doesn't move, shaving sharp broad head, 45# bow, perfect release, perfect everything... except it is shot 40 yards away. will the arrow have enough power to kill the deer?
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u didnt say arrow weight,,
lets assume 450 grains,,
45# bows can vary quite a bit in performance,, so lets say its shooting 160 fps with a 10 gpp arrow,,(450 grains) ( some bows will shoot into the 170 or 180 with 10 grain per pound arrows,, I just wanted to keep it average,,)
my answer would be yes,,
just to clarify,, the weight of the bow is really not an accurate way to measure the effeciency of that bow,, a 60# bow could easily be shooting the same as a 40# bow etc etc etc,,
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Yep, depends on arrow speed and weight. But with a typical, quality hunting bow/arrow setup, if all those things happen perfectly (and those are some mighty big ifs!), I'd say your odds are good.
I'm curious: Why do you ask?
Thomas
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Razor sharp point! What range can you hit a grapefruit (4"-5" ) spot every time? Shot placement is very important! Hunting skills equally so! Personally, I believe 40 yards is too far even with a high tech, laser sighted compound thing. Arrow weight matched to the bow is also important, many other variables come into play as well.
Hawkdancer
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Yes in real hunting situation...that is to far for me...but I understood the question to be if it hit the mark at that range would it be leathel...I think it would...I am not recommending that...I stump shoot that far and have fun doing that.
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I'm not a hunter but if a deer has an arrow in it's heart I believe it would die no matter what the range. I think you are asking if if it would have enough penetration to make it to the heart at 40yds. Well, I have shot my 40 # bow 255 yds and it stuck eight inches into hard dirt. I'm sure it would have made it to the deer's heart. And I wasn't using a broadhead. These things are very dangerous at any range.
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Good point DC,,.I remember reading bout Fred Bear killing a tiger at very long range,,.intending to shot over and scare it closer,..something like that.,.was over a hundred yards or something.,.im going from memory so might be a bit off on the details but u get the idea )P(
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OK, I have stabbed several deer with my knife to finish them off, I was surprised how little pressure it took for my knife to go to the hilt in their rib cage, just a few pounds.
I have found slipping up behind a thrashing down deer like a one hit on a road and a quick thrust to the chest will collapse their lungs and they will be dead in 30 seconds of so. Slitting their throat is too messy and you have to get too close to them to accomplish this.
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A needle sharp point requires 1.9# of pressure to poke through fresh venison hide. That being said, a true 40 yards is irresponsible no matter how good you are with your bow in the yard. Our bows, even the fast ones, are slow as slugs. A deer can spin in circles twice before the arrow travels that far. Simple, curious question I'm sure, but don't even think about it.
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I think that generally we'd all agree that accuracy and placement are bigger issues than penetration at that range. Where one is lacking, the other becomes more important. A heavy, fast, sharp, and/or stable-flying arrow might zip through a shoulder blade (or even a rib on large game), whereas a slower, lighter, dull, and/or wobbly arrow might penetrate poorly or not at all, thus making the difference between a dead animal and a wounded one.
Better penetration is a good insurance policy against marginal shot placement. And vice-versa. Both is ideal, and for most primitive bows/shooters, both tend to diminish around 20-30 yards.
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A needle sharp point requires 1.9# of pressure to poke through fresh venison hide. That being said, a true 40 yards is irresponsible no matter how good you are with your bow in the yard. Our bows, even the fast ones, are slow as slugs. A deer can spin in circles twice before the arrow travels that far. Simple, curious question I'm sure, but don't even think about it.
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Yeah, I wouldn't ever dare to shoot at a deer at that yardage. My friend that gave me the roast wanted to see my bow and said "yeah if you could shoot a deer at 40 yards, then you could hunt deer." I then explained to him that people wont even go over 20 yrds which i dont know if he believed. I then became curious if it was even possible. nothing i would ever attempt. I like to know what a bow can do. but what I can do with a bow is wayyyyyy different. ill stick to 10 yrds with a foam target. ;D
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40 yards is too far for any arrow in my opinion. Cross gun or compound or glass bow or self bow. Keep in mind that a bow that shoots 180 FPS only holds that speed right off the bow and slows down dramatically fast. So, 180 FPS doesn't translate to an arrow covering 60 yards in a second. Ive hunted for 34 years and have shot many dozen deer with every bow imaginable and have seen "most" of what can happen. The heart ache and disgust a responsible, empathetic hunter feels after wounding an animal isn't worth it. Keep em' close and let them walk until everything is perfect, and even then they will break your heart at times.
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ok since this has morphed into what is a good shot at a deer,,I will give my 2 cents,,
I think if I was gonna give advice about how far to shoot,,a good rule of thumb would be,, if you kill and recover every deer you shoot at at 10 to 15 yards,, then extend your range to 20 ,,, and so on,, I agree that longer range shots cant compensate for the speed a deer can get out of the way,, spinning circles etc is a reality that most dont take into consideration when shooting at deer,,,you are not in control of the situation by executing a perfect shot,,the deer has alot to do with what happens after the arrow is released and its a game of inches,,,2 inces to the left you are in the shoulder, and a difficult recover,,,2 inches high you it the back strap above the lungs,, its just not easy,, and closer shots improve your recovery rate,,
the older and more experienced I get,, the closer I like to shoot,, taking as many of the variables out of the situation as possible,, (SH)
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It's amazing how times have changed. Saxton Pope thought nothing of flinging arrows at deer that were up to 100 yds away. He figured that if the arrow hit the deer it was dead.(Don't ask me to prove that, I can't remember what book it was in ;D ;D) I guess he didn't care how long it took.
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Don, sadly that still happens. You either have empathy for the critters, like every real hunter should, or you don't. Read Ted Nugents "Blood Trails" book and you will read about lots of 40-80 yard shots that hit critters in every conceivable spot. I stopped reading it and tossed it in the garbage can where it belongs.
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I think we missed Russell's point of a hypothetical shot perfectly in the heart! The question was about penetration at that range. Me, 20 yards is maximum with a bow, and only after a full season of practice, see my earlier comment about the grapefruit.
Hawkdancer
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We didn't miss it, we just expanded on it. It was the perfect opportunity to teach the young man some things that related to his hypothetical question.
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Hawkdancer,, I think your right,, it kinda went off track,, :) but in a postive way )P(
DC,, I dont take anything away from those guys back then,, and some game will stand there till the arrow hits them,, but spooky little white tails,, usually dont stand for it,, making a good shot on them very difficult,, shooting at them at long range,, is pretty usless unless you want to loose your arrow,,,
when guys shot field archery at long range,, I can see why that translated into there hunting at some point,,for me personally,, I wouldnt advise long range shots at game,,,Im not saying it cant be done,,,of course it has,, but in the big picture,, I think its not a good practice,, If I could have a conversation with Pope,, I would just say you are gifted and can pull it off, but most archers can not,, and probably should not do it,,if he insisted that I was wrong,,,,, I would just say ok,, I dont need to be right,, and continue shooting close like I like,,, :NN
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I'm not a hunter but if a deer has an arrow in it's heart I believe it would die no matter what the range. I think you are asking if if it would have enough penetration to make it to the heart at 40yds. Well, I have shot my 40 # bow 255 yds and it stuck eight inches into hard dirt. I'm sure it would have made it to the deer's heart. And I wasn't using a broadhead. These things are very dangerous at any range.
Well.... I’m not sure that’s the same. At a certain point your arrow slows down and then gravity isn’t working against you anymore. It’ll start to fall, pulling your arrow to its terminal velocity; energy that your bow didn’t give to the arrow.
For that weight of a bow I wouldnt shoot past 30. If your arrow is heavy enough you should be okay, but definitely not ideal... or responsible. I hunt with 75-80# bow and I’ve killed at 40 yards np. I didn’t know it was 40 when I shot bc I’m bad at that sorta thing. when you have that kind of push behind your point it opens up a lot more opportunities. So do I take advantage of those super clean 60 yard shots(which I practice at all the time) ... no. I did once, and as soon as I loosed I regretted it immediately the arrow hit exactly where I wanted, complete pass through. But it doesn’t matter bc the further away just increases the odds against you in every way. I’m always advocating heavier weight bows for hunting. Might be overkill but that’s fine bc I want to kill and not having to second guess the physics of it. Sometimes it’s hard to guess range. Whether your in a blind or a stand it’s not a bad idea to mark out the range in your shooting lanes. A quick heal to the dirt or stick in the ground no second guessing required.
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marking a distance is a good Idea if you are in a blind,, something you wont shoot past,,
I usually make a mental note of how far I will shoot,,
if your not in a blind,,you may have to make a judgement call on the spot,, thats part of the challenge,,
I think I have made every mistake there is to make ,, not shooting fast enough,, not waiting long enough,,
letting the deer get to close,,, shooting to far,,, etc etc etc,,
every shot is different,, )P(
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Here in the mountains in the west I have to be comfortable shooting to 30 yards and would like to extend that to 40 yards. We don't have alot of dense forests that are found east of the Mississippi. Alot of more open forests and dry grassy areas. Alot of spot and stalk. I won't go in to all the dynamics but it takes a different strategy than when I lived in the midwest.
The best method (humane) to contemplate arrow penetration would be to shoot at dead animals, but most of us don't have those just laying around. So it's on to theory.
Using an online calculator based on the previous mentioned scenario here's some numbers. I can't account for arrow velocity loss during flight so I'm just running it based on different velocities.
Arrow Weight: 450 grains / Arrow Speed: 160 fps
Kinetic Energy: 25.58 FOOT-POUNDS
Momentum: 0.32 SLUGS
Arrow Weight: 450 grains / Arrow Speed: 150 fps
Kinetic Energy: 22.48 FOOT-POUNDS
Momentum: 0.3 SLUGS
Arrow Weight: 450 grains / Arrow Speed: 140 fps
Kinetic Energy: 19.58 FOOT-POUNDS
Momentum: 0.28 SLUGS
A drop in velocity from 160 to 140 gives us a 12.5% reduction in velocity and momentum. How that translates in to penetration reduction is beyond me but at least it gives you something to visualize.
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I'm not familiar with the term SLUGS as it relates to fps. Where in the west are you? Thanks,
Hawkdancer
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I'm not familiar with the term SLUGS as it relates to fps. Where in the west are you? Thanks,
Hawkdancer
A slug is defined as the mass that is accelerated by 1 ft/s2 when a force of one pound (lbf) is exerted on it.
Smater people than I could explain it better but my understanding is that momentum in foot pounds of energy describes the impact of a projectile but slugs give a better idea of penetration and how it carries that energy. So I simply just accept that the higher the slug unit the better the terminal performance and quit trying to understand the physics.
I'm in northern New Mexico.
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I'm not familiar with the term SLUGS as it relates to fps. Where in the west are you? Thanks,
Hawkdancer
slug is used to quantify chemical and mechanical, liquid and gas flow as it relates to velocity.
Yeah I’m guessing he’s not near the coast like me. We ain’t got any open ground. Unless it’s maintained cattle grounds.
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We got open spaces where 200 yards is a close shot, and dark timber and sagebrush where 5 yards is a long shot, if you can get enough room to aim a rifle or a bow! :-M (SH) (lol)! Both within an hour or less drive time! I think I understand slugs a little better, if it relates to foot/pounds of energy on target!
Hawkdancer
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My first shot at a deer 50 years ago was at about 40 yards up a slight hill, the deer was looking at me. When I shot the deer had time to take 3 complete steps before the arrow got there, it passed a foot or so behind the deer. Lesson learned, I have won the Alabama state championship twice with my selfbow but still limit my shots to less than 18 yards, it is the ethical thing for me to do.
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yep,, about 15 is a good shot
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Thank you guys!
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in my mind I think the Native hunters probably shot close if possible,,
even me, when I am deciding to take a shot,, loosing an arrow comes into play in my decision,If I feel the shot is close enough Im not gonna miss and lose and arrow,, its in my range,,, and I am sure they did not want to loose an arrow on a long maybe shot,, better to shoot an arrow on a high percentage shot and get some game,, I am thinking,,...not only ethical,, but practical,, the closer shots just give you a higher percentage of success,,
Im ok if the arrow gets broken in the animal,,, thats just an investment you have to make,,
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On YouTube, a guy named Paul Harrel makes a "meat target." I did this to test pistol ammo. Very eye opening. Testing broadheads on a meat target at distance is relatively cheap vs hours reading internet evidence. I am getting better in my own retraining of form, but about 30 yards is probably max with about 43 to 46 weight.
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On YouTube, a guy named Paul Harrel makes a "meat target." I did this to test pistol ammo. Very eye opening. Testing broadheads on a meat target at distance is relatively cheap vs hours reading internet evidence. I am getting better in my own retraining of form, but about 30 yards is probably max with about 43 to 46 weight.
Interesting! I assume you are shooting at a big hunk of meat to see how the projectile penetrates into it. I've seen similar experiments on "Tod's Workshop" and "Modern History TV" channels, where they put a hunk of meat inside different types of armor to see how a warbow does against it. That would indeed be an eye-opening experiment with our hunting bows...hmmm, maybe I could spare one of these shoulder roasts...
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in my mind I think the Native hunters probably shot close if possible,,
even me, when I am deciding to take a shot,, loosing an arrow comes into play in my decision,If I feel the shot is close enough Im not gonna miss and lose and arrow,, its in my range,,, and I am sure they did not want to loose an arrow on a long maybe shot,, better to shoot an arrow on a high percentage shot and get some game,, I am thinking,,...not only ethical,, but practical,, the closer shots just give you a higher percentage of success,,
Im ok if the arrow gets broken in the animal,,, thats just an investment you have to make,,
You gotta get that out of your head man. Losing arrows is part of the game. Good shots don’t come as often and new shafts and feathers to.
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good point ;D
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I used to teach the archery, treestand and M/L end of hunter safety in town. I always emphasised that one should use a razor sharp broadhead and the best arrow you own for a shot on deer.
One evening after class a teen hunter came up to me and told me his story; he said he saw his first really nice buck while walking in to his stand one evening. He slipped up to within about 50 yards of it and being inexperienced he decided to take a hail mary shot. He said he knew he would miss, didn't want to lose a good arrow so he picked a well worn one with a rusty broadhead out of his quiver and launched it toward the deer.
To his surprise his arrow hit right where it was supposed to, he got poor penetration and the deer took off. He waited a while and started looking for the deer, there was little or no blood trail, not finding the deer he finally gave up the search with plans to come back in the morning.
The next morning he continued the search and eventually found the deer. He was planning to have this nice buck mounted until he took a closer look at it and found to his horror some critter had eaten the lips and part of the nose off overnight.
Had he not used a dull rusty broadhead out of fear of losing an expensive arrow he would be admiring the mount of this buck right now instead of finding the mangled mess of what was once a fine buck.
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Don, sadly that still happens. You either have empathy for the critters, like every real hunter should, or you don't. Read Ted Nugents "Blood Trails" book and you will read about lots of 40-80 yard shots that hit critters in every conceivable spot. I stopped reading it and tossed it in the garbage can where it belongs.
Ya I hear ya I tossed that book in the garbage to, I learn from my mistakes and listen to the old timers. Case in point I have met many master tradesmen and most have barely read 20 pages of any book in their lives. The more I read the more profound becomes a memory full of junk.