Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pete Noto on October 25, 2019, 02:38:44 pm
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Hello All,
I'm new here...this is my first post.
Years ago I was a VERY inexperienced hobby bowyer, completed a handful of self bows and one glass laminate before life got too busy to keep it up. A milestone anniversary of my father's passing just ticked by and it got me thinking about an old snakey osage bow of his I have. I've decided I want to take a stab at bringing her back into service so I can take it afield in remembrance of him.
I plan to go very slowly and use my old tillering tree, once I figure out where the heck I put it, and a long string that I will progressively shorten with a bowyers knot if all goes well. Yes I will be careful, yes I will wear eye protection, and yes she is going right back on static display at the first sign or sound of cracking.
The bow is in good physical shape having been stored for the past 30/40 years on a horizontal bow rack in a cool moderately humid environment with little temperature fluctuation and no direct exposure to sunlight. One of the tips is damaged, and I remember my father telling me he shot it for years that way, but I am concerned about it.
I've taken several pics of the bow and both the tips for comparison and have put them in an online folder. I'd appreciate any advice on bringing an old bow back into service, as well as thoughts on if the damaged tip is still functional, and if not how I might go about repairing it.
If you're interested please take a look here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16W3GJBC8IMVLf_X1HmFBNbGhYa5e-JiE?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16W3GJBC8IMVLf_X1HmFBNbGhYa5e-JiE?usp=sharing)
Thanks in advance for any and all replies.
Cheers,
Pete
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The damaged tip looks fine, any wood between the actual string groove and the tip is irrelevant.
My advice would be to give it a good waxing, slip a string on it, one that will go on without flexing the bow then pull it to about half draw watching how it flexes. Repeat the gentle flexing until you are totally fed up with it! Then get it to a low brace and repeat.
Finally get it to a proper brace say 6" and pull it half draw, the shoot it from half draw about 20-30 times.
gradually bring it back to full draw by increasing the draw and shooting it a few dozen times.
Between each stage examine it carefully by eye and by feel.
Pay special attention to the back, any cuts, nicks or deep scratches could be fatal to the bow.
Be willing to have it explode... if you are not willing, then keep it as a "wall hanger".
Del
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Thanks, Del. What type of wax do you suggest?
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Del pretty much nailed what you need to do. I would add that you should take pics and post them each step of the way to have us all check them out and advise you as you go. None of us want to hear back from you about a failure we could have helped prevent.
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By the way.... Do you know what its draw length and weight were? Do you have any of the arrows your dad shot with this bow, as they could lend a clue, either by arrow length, weight, and spine.
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Unless there is something already structurally wrong with the bow, osage is about the most bulletproof wood out there when it comes to bringing it back into service. Just follow Del's advice on retraining it.
A really nice looking bow you have there, graceful shape to the limbs. Whoever made it knew what they were doing.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I definitely will document the process as I go and will upload it here. Hoping to have a chance to do it next week/weekend as I'm headed out this evening to take a cub scout pack camping in Big Sur for the weekend!
Unfortunately, I have no information on the bow's specs, nor any of the arrows that were paired with it.
I'm still looking for a recommendation on what kind of wax to rub it down with? :D
There is a second, non-osage bow I plan to do the same with. I'll be following the same gameplan on that one as well. I don't know the wood as it's belly is painted white and it looks to be backed with a thin laminate of some sort painted black. It is a takedown utilizing a lug system and is quite sturdy in the limb, I'm thinking the poundage on that one will be north of 75#? My dad was a BIG guy, I even have a 125#er of his I will never string!
Pics of the takedown bow can be seen here:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/184xO-FCt9urSrMnP4SGCLZVNJA8BGqnG?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/184xO-FCt9urSrMnP4SGCLZVNJA8BGqnG?usp=sharing)
If I can revive it, I will most likely sand it down and refinish it.
Thanks again for the help!
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Ok, how long, wide, thick is it, then measure its weight in grams. We can reverse engineer this thing to find what it is.
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To be clear, this is the osage bow.
It comes in at dead on 700 grams and 65" string grove to string grove.
Okay...no laughing at my horrible little sketch but thought it was the best way to give you the bow's measurements. All measurements are in inches.
The top sketch is looking down on the bow, measuring the widest spot on the lower and upper limbs, and the skinniest. I found it interesting the widest spots were a perfect 13" apart. The bottom sketch is from the side measuring thickness at the measure points from the top sketch.
(https://i.imgur.com/G78P0Jn.jpg)
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I’ve never measured any of my Osage selfbows for limb thickness, but I would estimate them to be about 1/2” thick, 1-1/2” at widest point of fade straight tapering to 1/2” tips. 4” handle, 10”fade to fade, and they are all very close to 50#. Looking at your specs I would guess you will be well north of that.
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I feel like based on that you are looking at between 65-70#@28" draw. I'm trying to find Steve's mass formula chart to ensure this makes sense in the mass range, and soon as I do I will let you know. After you get it braced at 6 inches of brace, draw it to 10 inches and give us the draw weight, the give it every inch to 15, and I can tell you exactly what it will be from there out.
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I forgot to add, for the love of all that is Holy, dont sand it down. The patina Osage takes is prized in older bows, dont ruin that. Just put a finish over it.
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To answer your question any beeswax based furniture polish will be fine. Other finishes may not be compatible with what is already on there.
With those specs that bow is going to be 70# or maybe a bit more. More than 3/4 out of the fades, 1 1/2 wide and only 65inch long. Yep your Dad was a big guy :) You will need some sturdy shafts.
Sleek you could hazard a guess out to 28 but it ain't going to be exact ;)
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The painted takedown, is most likely lemonwood, but it could possibly be osage as well. You won't know until you strip and clean the paint off.
It has a backing which could be fibre, or an early fibreglass. As long as its still glued on well its probably okay to retrain and shoot.
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My guess is about the same as the others, between 65 and 75# most likely maybe even more. As thick as it is I am thinking your Dad may have had a short draw. How tall was your father?
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Thanks for all the replies.
Badger, my dad was a very broad shoulder and big chested six foot guy, his suit coat was a 52". I have a set of his old Easton aluminum shafts, VERY heavy spine and 31". All that to say I don't think he had a short draw.
Sleek, I have no plans to refinish the osage snake, I like the patina it has. I do want to sand down the painted takedown bow and refinish that as I prefer natural grain to the look of paint.
I luckily has a few sets of heavy spin hardwood shafted arrows to pick from that I made years ago so if I am lucky enough to retrain either of these bows I should be set.
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Yep, I doubt he was short draw.
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I’ve been restoring old bows to add to my collection for the last 5 years and it’s really been fun. The oldest one I’ve found was an old 1939 85#lemonwood bow (well it’s 80lbs now) it’s really a lot of fun working them back in and sometimes you get lucky and it doesn’t need too much. This year I hunted with it and harvested a real nice buck. I hope this gives you some hope and a good feeling that it is possible:)
I’ll be following your thread.
First things first; look over the back closely and use a microfiber cloth to find anything not....good.
And if the bow looks out of tiller don’t adjust it. Just keep flexing it within a safe range of bending. Sometimes it’ll work itself back to square.
For me, just from seeing what you have to work with. You should be able to get her back order pretty easy.
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Morning All,
So I found my tillering tree! I also found a cresting jig I built with an old electric motor I had totally forgotten about...woo woo!!
Taking Del and Bownarra's advice, I rubbed the bow down with a beeswax based polish a couple of times. I used this one as it was the only option at my local store:
(https://i.imgur.com/adRIZ2n.jpg)
It darkened the belly wood up a touch which I am fine with, gives it a much more orange osage tint than it had before rubbing it down:
(https://i.imgur.com/QA3A2Ut.jpg)
Following the advice from this thread as well as one I have going on the Leatherwall, I strung it up with a long string that did not require bracing the bow. I flexed it by mere inches about 100 times and then let it sit for a bit and checked the backing. No splinters, no noise when I did the flexing. Then came 50 more flexes between 5" and 10", no noise, no ill effects when inspected, everything seemed to flex well and in proportion. Then 50 more at about 14", no noise, no ill effects to the back, flexing in sync. Then 100 flexes at 18" as marked on the tree (see pic), no noise, no ill effects to the back, equal limb movement. I then tied it off at what would be a low brace, say about 3.5 inches and have it currently sitting like this. Plan is to let it stay this way for an hour or so.
Here are some pics of the process, please let me know if you see anything of concern that I do not. The first one is the tillering tree setup with no pressure on the string:
(https://i.imgur.com/BGjYJMj.jpg)
These next two are at 18". The measurement is from the front of the tillering tree which the back of the bow lines up perfectly with. For those helping take a guess at draw weight, I put the scale on the pull rope at this stage a couple of times and it came out to exactly 40 pounds each time @ 18". What is your guess at 28", and again at my draw of 30.5"?
(https://i.imgur.com/s6Z3HVo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/caYLJ8y.jpg)
This last one is of the bow at the simulated low brace:
(https://i.imgur.com/dJNCkgq.jpg[)
I plan to keep updating this thread, all replies and advice are greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Pete
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Looking good so far... slow and steady wins the day.
Try to ignore the waggles and look at the overall bend and the tip movement.
Bear in mind it may well have been tillered to a short draw originally?
Don't necessarily assume 28"
Del
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Thanks, Del.
I'm good with slow and steady.
I let it sit at the 3"(ish) simulated brace on the tillering tree for 3 hours today. Then I flexed it again 120 times to 18" on the tree, and then braced it to 6.25" as I'm sure the new string is going to stretch out. I plan to let it sit this way for at least 5 hours, maybe overnight. Then back on the tree and more reps progressively longer. Maybe tomorrow after getting it to the 22" or so mark on the tree I'll shoot it with a very short draw for awhile. I have some 800g+ ash shafted woodies I plan to use.
More updates to follow...please keep the replies coming.
Cheers,
Pete
(https://i.imgur.com/AzDAs1e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jf74BXB.jpg)
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Looking good. I wouldn't let it sit overnight though. If you want to stretch the string out, you could always hang a weight from the end of it and let that sit for a while. That is definitely an interesting, beautifully wonky bow!
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That is a great project bow and since it belonged to your Dad, how cool is that. I agree with the suggestions given so far. You are doing the right thing, taking it slow. I agree with your leaving it braced overnight. And shooting it at 22". Seems like they react a little differently once they are shot a bit. My latest bow, sinew backed juniper, I left it braced for 28 hrs to see if it would give up a little reflex that the sinew put into it. Had no ill effects. Finished tillering it to 24" and she shoots fine. I still have 4" of reflex.
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Looking good so far. Bow looks to be cooperating. Only thing I would caution about would be trying to stretch it out to a 30.5” draw length. At a total bow length of 65”, and a stiff handle design, I am thinking you will be overdressing the working parts of the limbs. If it were mine, and was my dads, I would not push it past 27”, maybe 28” maximum. JMHO
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Looking good so far. Bow looks to be cooperating. Only thing I would caution about would be trying to stretch it out to a 30.5” draw length. At a total bow length of 65”, and a stiff handle design, I am thinking you will be overdressing the working parts of the limbs. If it were mine, and was my dads, I would not push it past 27”, maybe 28” maximum. JMHO
+1. I wouldn't risk it. honestly i wouldn't want to shoot it even. it would be very special to me. but then again that's a reason to fix it up! just my opinion. just remember, a bow is a symbol, a finely tuned weapon, a broken bow is just a stick.
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Thanks, Del.
I'm good with slow and steady.
I let it sit at the 3"(ish) simulated brace on the tillering tree for 3 hours today. Then I flexed it again 120 times to 18" on the tree, and then braced it to 6.25" as I'm sure the new string is going to stretch out. I plan to let it sit this way for at least 5 hours, maybe overnight. Then back on the tree and more reps progressively longer. Maybe tomorrow after getting it to the 22" or so mark on the tree I'll shoot it with a very short draw for awhile. I have some 800g+ ash shafted woodies I plan to use.
More updates to follow...please keep the replies coming.
Cheers,
Pete
(https://i.imgur.com/AzDAs1e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jf74BXB.jpg)
In the upper image, your lower limb seems to have a tiny bit of twist to it. Keep an eye on it because it could be out of tiller or be fine.
I'd measure or outline the profile of it unbraced before I bent it anymore. If it starts to take much set, you know when to stop bending it. Measure it against its outline every time you work it back another inch. Tedious, but a sure way to not mess it up.
That's a well crafted bow, especially for a time when information about them wasn't readily available.
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Also, as you draw it back, starting around the 10 inch mark start giving us numbers. How much it weighs at 10 inches, then 11, and 12, and so on until you reach your draw length. What is your draw length btw?
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Well pooh! :'(
It was well worth the try, and I'll admit my hopes were getting higher and higher, but it looks like she is going to remail wall art. That is unless there is a fix available...possibly a sinew wrap?
From my earlier update, I left her braced at full hight for 5 1/2 hours today and when I checked on the bow I found two cracks on the upper limb back right were the limb works the most.
(https://i.imgur.com/NFraD4R.jpg)
I greatly enjoyed feeling connected to the old man as I worked with his bow, I was really looking forward to taking it afield and communing with him in that way...all the more so as I hoped to bring his grandson he never met along as the boy has just recently shown an interest in archery.
I appreciate all of the responses and offers of advice....thanks.
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You did good man. It's still in one piece and now a wall hanger. Which limb was it? Nothing you could have done about it, and because you took caution, it still is in one piece.
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Shame, but at least it's still in one piece.
Del
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To bad . I was really hoping you could get her shooting again. Nice effort and will still make a wall hanger
Bjrogg
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This is such an interesting post and I admire your due diligence at the attempt. Doesn't seem I've really seen too many examples of well crafted osage longbows like this from, you figure the early or mid 1980's?
I'm assuming your dad made the bow? If so, that is very intriguing considering the lack of information and availability at the time to pull that off. I'm wondering if you could or would share any information about how your dad learned the process...mentors, etc. You have a picture of him with it from a successful hunt?
Don't want to be too forward in asking these questions but it seems pretty significant. Just don't see much from that era in time.
Also, it would make for a heck of an interesting magazine article...just a thought.
I'd be on the hunt for a similarly snakey piece of Osage and try to reproduce it! Be a heck of a great process and another awesome layer of connecting with your dad's spirit.
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The tiller is off a good bit and what you see are "stretch" marks, basically tears in the ring. I had a feeling this wasn't going to work after you posted pics. That's why I mentioned tossing all my advice out the window on the other site you're posting on.
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Please point on a clear side profile image of the bow, where the cracks lifted. I'd like to see if it was the limb I was worried about.
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since the bow seems quite heavy,, maybe scrape off the sap wood,, I am guessing that is what cracked,, down to a good layer,, then sinew back the whole bow,, and make minor adjustments in the tiller to get it working more evenly,, I have a feeling it will shoot,, sometimes I am overly optomistic,,,just saying if it was my bow,, I would not give up yet,, since it didnt blow,,,,or at least down to a non cracked sap wood,, then sinew back,,
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I'd leave it. Trace it out onto another stave and make a replica if anything.
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since the bow seems quite heavy,, maybe scrape off the sap wood,, I am guessing that is what cracked,, down to a good layer,, then sinew back the whole bow,, and make minor adjustments in the tiller to get it working more evenly,, I have a feeling it will shoot,, sometimes I am overly optomistic,,,just saying if it was my bow,, I would not give up yet,, since it didnt blow,,,,or at least down to a non cracked sap wood,, then sinew back,,
Chasing a ring down below the crack does work btw, but for this bow, I'd reccomend against it. We may have learned here exactly why sapwood is historically shunned in bows. It may degrade and break when an all heartwood bow would have lasted 100 years.
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Sleek I was thinking the same about the sap wood, good point and observation,,
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Sorry to hear it didn’t make it.But as already stated at least you still have a wall hanger that was passed down from your dad. I’m sure he would be proud to just see it having on your wall.
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Thanks again for all the replies guys. I've put her back up on the wall...for now. When life slows down a bit, I just might consider scraping her down to a ring past the tear and then backing it with something. My dad was an engineer, a physical guy, and a lover of tools. I have many "non-useful" possessions of his to remember him by. I think he would have prefered I find a solution and get her back in service. Until then she hangs above my workbench in the man cave...miss you Pops.
Sleek, here is the side profile shot you wanted. The Sharpie is pointing at the larger of the two tears, the smaller is just above it. I misspoke earlier, it was the lower limb, not the upper.
(https://i.imgur.com/WwosJMX.jpg)
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you figure the early or mid 1980's?
I'm assuming your dad made the bow? If so, that is very intriguing considering the lack of information and availability at the time to pull that off.
Interesting perspective but I never found that there was a lack of selfbow information available at any point.
As a kid through the 70s and 80s I had no trouble locating this info in a library. A remarkable amount of info was still actually out there.
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Since its a wall hanger for now,,,wouldn't hurt to sand and see how deep the crack is,,, (f)
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If you are determined to save or destroy it, I'd scrape the crack away, see how deep it is. then I'd consider sinew on the back to bring the poundage up.
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I have hope ;D