Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on August 31, 2019, 07:25:41 pm
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Other topics got me thinking about this....
What if a trench were dug, a well established bed of coals were made at the bottom of the trench, then sand were laid over the coals an inch thick, the bow placed belly down, then it gets covered with sand to hold the heat? Kinda like making charcoal, but on a time limit to not char the bow. A bed of wet moss can protect the back from charing.
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Did you pre-order the video? Is this a sneak peek? Or rather, a sleek peak?
(Hiding the long handled spoon behind my back)
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there is a heat treating for flintknapping stone in the suggested threads for beginners, they had the wood going and put the sand on top, that created charcoal and it burned for days upon days. it will probably work. try it! I would but i dont have land, and my backyard isnt probably the best place to dig trenches >:D
Ahh your jokes JW always make me laugh!
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Did you pre-order the video? Is this a sneak peek? Or rather, a sleek peak?
(Hiding the long handled spoon behind my back)
Hehe, no.... just a thought I had... one that may not be unique to me, but still... my own.
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My intuition is that the sand around the back would be pretty similar in temperature to what’s around the belly. If you want both treated similarly guess this could be good but i’m uneasy without evidence about treating the back and the belly the same way. Maybe i’m missing something. Im thinking that radiative heat is better for targeting the belly than convective heat from air or conduction from sand. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to bury a bow in sand back-down and heat treat the exposed belly. With the back insulated maybe a more thorough heat treat could reach the belly before the back gets brittle.
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I like the wet moss idea, sleek. that could be a great insulator that wouldn’t let the back dry out. I’m hoping moss can hold onto water for long enough to do a heat treat
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My intuition is that the sand around the back would be pretty similar in temperature to what’s around the belly. If you want both treated similarly guess this could be good but i’m uneasy without evidence about treating the back and the belly the same way. Maybe i’m missing something. Im thinking that radiative heat is better for targeting the belly than convective heat from air or conduction from sand. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to bury a bow in sand back-down and heat treat the exposed belly. With the back insulated maybe a more thorough heat treat could reach the belly before the back gets brittle.
Outstanding thought. To carry that further, let's use clay on the back as a moist heat sink
In order to stay primitive, we still use a trench, but do as you said, back down, belly up, sand, then coals for an even heT.
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I like the wet moss idea, sleek. that could be a great insulator that wouldn’t let the back dry out. I’m hoping moss can hold onto water for long enough to do a heat treat
The modern version of moss is a wash cloth. I use that for when I need to heat a sinewed bow. Works great.
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None of these methods will work without first consulting ancestry.com.
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None of these methods will work without first consulting ancestry.com.
I almost died. You damn near made me choke on my toothpick.
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Clay alone i worry would dry and crack off but maybe not as a second layer over moss or rags. Personally I’d be worried about heat treating in a way where i can’t see the wood directly. Im still tentative with fire, I ruined or worsened many early bows with botched heat treats so maybe i’ll stick to my heat gun at first.
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I swear if your not Native American it wont work. just give up there. just go cry into the night and drink your drink saying that you were unlucky enough to not be born to the right parents. bow building has nothing to do with skill... all ancestry.
But... back on topic here...
The clay could indicate when the bow is done via color change or hardness.
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How about burying the bow back first in the ground belly side being up then pour the hot coal on top of it. That way the ground under the back will keep the back cool and belly will get toasted from the coal on top. As I am typing this I can see how this is the dumbest thing ever.
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Light fire, burn down to a nice bed of coals. Heat treat belly over them. Go slowly.
K.I.S.S. is a great moto to live by :)
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Nasr I think that’s exactly what sleek suggested unless i’m mistaken. My only qualm is that personally i like to see the wood as I heat treat so I can adjust in time, but that’s no good reason not to do it. I have a feeling the direct radiation from the coals is better than conduction from another source like sand but that’s unsubstantiated.
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There was a video posted here a while ago with a guy using a similar(wet sand with a fire on top)method but that was for steaming in reflex, I believe. The problem with these methods is that you can't see what's going on. They all have the bow buried so the amount of heat treat would be a crap shoot. If you can't see the colour change I'm sure you would end up with hot and cold spots. Just holding it over coals like a hot dog it much simpler and more likely to be successful. My gut says that it's probably the best way. Even better than a heat gun. I made a radiant heater that does a beautiful heat treat, no spots or scorching the back, just a nice even brown. But, unfortunately, only on nice straight limbs. It's only 2" wide so any sideways bend means that spot gets missed. Holding it over a bed of coals and waving it around a bit sorts that out. I wonder if one of those propane radiant heaters would work. Anyone got one in their shop?
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DC I’ve seen flexible heating elements online before that could match the profile of any limb. I’ve been looking into how to set this up for the last couple weeks. Any ideas? i’ve also been looking into getting an abandoned salamander oven from a restaurant but that would only work for straighter staves.
And I think you’re right about good coals being better than a heat gun. Those put out a lot of hot air but i’d rather use radiation like in those propane heaters you mention and with the ‘hot dog’ technique to be able to see what’s happening. Id still like to insulate the back so i can go harder on the belly, I guess this brings us back to badgers heat tape post
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DC I’ve seen flexible heating elements online before that could match the profile of any limb. I’ve been looking into how to set this up for the last couple weeks. Any ideas? i’ve also been looking into getting an abandoned salamander oven from a restaurant but that would only work for straighter staves.
And I think you’re right about good coals being better than a heat gun. Those put out a lot of hot air but i’d rather use radiation like in those propane heaters you mention and with the ‘hot dog’ technique to be able to see what’s happening. Id still like to insulate the back so i can go harder on the belly, I guess this brings us back to badgers heat tape post
No ideas or I would have done it but that's straying from the "Primitive Methods". I think next bow I'll try the fire pit. Put my money where my mouth is. I may stray a bit and use charcoal briquettes. I have this feeling that it will be way faster than a heat gun. With the gun you hold in one spot for about 5 min(approx). With the fire pit you're doing the whole limb at once so maybe 5 min for the whole limb. 10 min and the bows done? Anyone done this? Must be someone. Maybe a little optimistic but still. And then you have a bed of coals to cook a steak or a squirrel or hot dog ;D
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I’ve done this for about 10 bows. Only one or two have better heat treats than with a heat gun, but I’m chalking that up to poor experience/ability. I’ve ruined several bows over campfires. Takes me about 10 minutes a limb, 15 when I go very slow. Have had way better results with a long trench of glowing red coals than with an orange glowing campfire. A lot like cooking a steak but a little longer. I look for where the coals are radiating heat and not where they are on fire and putting out a lot of hot air. Those spots leave a lot of soot and scorch the back faster in my experience. My hope is always to come back around to primitive methods but while figuring things out i don’t mind modern training wheels.
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I'm thinkin' a 3' long half pipe filled with charcoal briquettes. The equivalent of a trough in the ground but raised up on legs in front of a lawn chair. Maybe a cup holder ;D ;D
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I'm thinkin' a 3' long half pipe filled with charcoal briquettes. The equivalent of a trough in the ground but raised up on legs in front of a lawn chair. Maybe a cup holder ;D ;D
You sir... are a genius. I will take 2 please.
Perhaps a mirror underneath it so you can see what's going on on the belly....
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Perhaps a mirror underneath it so you can see what's going on on the belly....
Now that's lazy ;D ;D ;D
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Great idea, sounds much more comfortable than kneeling on the ground around hot coals.If you want the coals to last for both limbs i might go with a 5” pipe. When i have done trenches too thin i’ve had to light another fire to do the other limb which takes a while and hasn’t saved me any charcoal really.
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Hey now, I like how this thread has progressed... Maybe we should make a DVD demonstration on this technology?
5 inch trench sounds reasonable. Why not just make 2 trenches with an adjustable gap in between for the handle, and hit both limbs at once?
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Fire was a major part of life for primitive man. I can imagine a guy building his bow while sitting around the fire using that heat to make adjustments as the bow building was going on but I can't imaging taking the time to dig a trench, fill it with hot coals and risking his hard work to temper the bow. Looking at primitive bows in museums I've seen things in their construction that we try to stay away from like grain violations on the back. Very few of the bows I've seen had pristine backs and apparently many survived.
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You'll see plenty of references to Natives using the trench and bury method for streaming a stave.
Many cultures use some form of burying food in order to cook it. If they could master the timing for that it's not that unrealistic that they could figure out time and temperature for a bow too.
I still favor the simpler over the fire method.
Several years ago a guy on Paleoplanet made a HHB bow on a camping trip and did a beautiful job of both drying AND heat treating the bow over a fire in just a few days. I'll try to find a link to the thread.
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Fire was a major part of life for primitive man. I can imagine a guy building his bow while sitting around the fire using that heat to make adjustments as the bow building was going on but I can't imaging taking the time to dig a trench, fill it with hot coals and risking his hard work to temper the bow. Looking at primitive bows in museums I've seen things in their construction that we try to stay away from like grain violations on the back. Very few of the bows I've seen had pristine backs and apparently many survived.
Fire treating one of those bows would be certain failure then... Interesting about seeing so many with violations.
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https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/five-curve-hhb-mollegabet-quick-cure-experiment-bu-t36201.html
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I know fire pits were used to cook food but that was for the tribe and not just to build a bow. I agree with Pat about sitting around the fire using the heat directly as the bow was being made. In primitive society every movement had a result. Very little time or effort were used if it didn't have direct results that aided the group.I have no doubt that a very good bow could be built from a green stave in a relatively short amount of time and the link Pat posted proves it.
Like I said in another thread it is almost impossibly for us as modern man to know how the primitive mind worked.
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They cut straight grooves the length of the arrow ,and some even spiraled the grooves, and heated them over a fire to harden them to keep them from warping. When I build arrows from scratch I do the same . On most woods that I have used for arrows it works.Fluted arrows like fluted rifle barrels to a lesser degree.
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None of these methods will work without first consulting ancestry.com.
HAHAHAHAHAHA LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I just spit sprite across the living room. Thanks for the fantastic ab workout.
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For me and my simple man logic. Heat applied to the belly in whatever manner is still just heat. No matter how it’s applied, I get the best results with my heat gun at a generous distance and going slow to get a good deep heat cycle. I made a little attachment that makes the round end into more of a rectangle so hit more surface area instead of just a spot treatment inched along down the limb. And the belly will even kind of sink in on itself. A flat bellied bow when done will by slightly concave.