Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jeffp51 on May 07, 2019, 06:44:43 am
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My Wife's boss and her husband saw the bows I made and now really want to buy one or two from me. I have never sold a bow before as I have not really trusted myself to do that in the past and I don't want to make a business out of my hobby. But I am inclined to make them one and I think I am good enough now to make something worth selling. Prices online for a self bow are all over the map. What would any of you say is a fair price to ask for a well built self bow?
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Most would recommend that you not sell unless it is a business.
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I'm with Pat on this. You might have them pay for materials and gift the bows to them.
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I would do it if you are confident in your skill level and your bows. A simple osage bow from me would be $500 minimum.
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If you are set on doing it overbuild and back.
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I've struggled with this question myself. I've given many more away than I've sold. I have sold a few and so far everyone has been happy. I have never advertised, just people that see my work and would like to buy one. I'm a better bowyer than salesman. I have been receiving more calls asking if I sell bows, arrows and knives. Farming is really though the past few years. I've been thinking of starting a limited amount of sales. Like Jeff said I hesitate to make my hobby a job. I also don't want to overcharge, or undercut those that are trying to make a living doing this. I also know from experience that people will do things that they shouldn't and break their bows. I try really hard to have anyone I make a bow for visit me regularly and learn how to brace, unbrace, draw and generally care for their bows till they seem very comfortable with them. You just have to assume their going to do anything and everything wrong. Even guy's who've been shooting compound for decades.
Bjrogg
PS maybe even especially compound shooters.
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If you build a good bow you have no concerns. I don't know how many I've sold, near 12-15, Id guess. Not a single complaint and not a single break in 6-7 years. I don't sell much anymore, but when I needed the money I had no reservations doing so. Don't feel guilty and don't feel like your jeopardizing the sanctity of the self bow. You're not.
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Sort of related, I've sold a number of knives but I generally do it for cost of materials to fund the hobby and a few bucks for beverages during the process.
Consider this, what do you do if someone comes back to you with a broken item? Can you afford to make them a new bow? Can you afford a weird relationship with them if things don't work out? What if you know it's their fault but you have to take their word? People who aren't knife nuts...bow nuts in your case...don't know the things we do, like how to properly care and use what we make.
For what it's worth, for my wife's boss I'd most certainly do it just for the cost of materials and to gain more experience.
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Riding the fence....both sides of this argument have merit in my opinion. At the end of the day, if you have a skill for providing a product or service that others want and are willing to pay for, that makes you no different than a plumber, lawyer, carpenter or artist who charges for that product or service. I have given away and donated a bunch of bows over the years. I have also sold a handful, without any reservations about it. I think PD’s in the right neighborhood money wise. I have some you wouldn’t offer me enough to sell them and others that are never used for one reason or another. The market place is there and will reward you for good work or put you out of business if the eggs are runny.
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I sell often as I have one to sell. 300 for a simple bow, goes up from there. I dont know why it seems tabo to sell. So long as you dont miss represent the wooden bow community by selling junk, nobody should care, or care what you sell it for. Make it worth your time and materials. Make it worth a promotion for your wife... make it worth adding him to the local archery club, make it worth a nice date for you and your wife at a nice steak house. There is no answer to your, how much, question. Just dont sell junk. That's all I can add to this really.
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Just a word of warning...2 that I know of have broken. Both belonged to young people. Both were drawn by someone other than the owner. Neither had an arrow knocked. I write a short story that accompanies the bows I give away or sell. It basically tells the bows story, type of wood, when cut, anything remarkable or interesting about it. But it also gives them a simple list of do’s and don’ts. Don’t let your high school buddy show you how strong he is and draw this 27 inch draw length bow back past his ear. It will break it! Don’t draw it without the proper arrow knocked, don’t leave it strung over night, so forth and so on. I have replaced one of these bows and will replace the other regardless.
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Bob I have done the same with the bows I have given away, along with instructions on proper care and feeding of a self bow. And right now I am helping a kid build his own, and I am donating the materials for that project, so most of the time I prefer to operate on that level. With these people, I have the feeling they will treat it better if they pay for it. Does that seem strange?
I know this is a can-of-worms kind of topic, but I think it is worth having the conversation from time to time. Almost everyone that sees one of my bows asks me how much I sell them for. My usual answer is I don't want to ruin my hobby that way, but if you look at the hours involved, here is what it would be worth. . .
I think some of the taboo of selling comes from the possible liability of it breaking.
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Just keep in mind that you will be sued into oblivion if someone gets so much as a bad sliver.
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This is always a thorny problem. I agree with most of what's been written.
I give a list of do's and don'ts to people who are not used to wooden bows (see below).
I am less and less inclined to sell to people I don't know.
One problem with giving stuff is that somehow some people seem to value it less.
What I tend to do is have an official price of £300, but sell at £200 or £150 to give me my money for tools and materials.
I make a great point of saying I will maintain or replace a bow if a genuine fault is bought to my attention.
Del
Care of Self wood bows. DH 2012
The biggest danger to a self wood bow is other people!
Don’t let others draw your bow, with or without an arrow in case some macho guy over draws it, shoots it upside down or looses without an arrow etc.
Even an unstrung bow is at risk of being flexed the wrong way by someone who doesn’t know any better.
Always string it yourself . Using a stringer or the push pull method is best.
Some wide tipped primitive styles are too wide for the string loop to slide up the limb. I string these by putting the lower tip on the (soft) ground with the string on the bottom nock, I stick out my left knee and pull up the upper tip with my right hand with my knee pressing against the handle and slipping the string on with my left. This is fine as the only forces are on the tips and the grip.
Once the bow is strung, check each nock to make sure the string is fitted snuggly; trust me I’ve had a string slip out of its nock. Flex it a few times to a short draw first to get you and the bow warmed up.
If you really must let someone else shoot it, then be sure they use arrows which are only as long as the permitted draw length.
My bows are usually tillered to 1” over the specified length to allow a little margin of error, but this can get exceeded if the wrong string is put on or over twisted. That’s why I shoot arrows of the right length. It would be easy to get carried away at a flight or clout shoot and use an extra few inches of draw. This could be fatal to a character bow, especially a primitive, longbows are a little more forgiving, but can take extra set and loose power if over drawn.
Keep an eye on you bow run your hands over it look at every knot and ripple, get to know how it looks and feels, watch out for any knocks and bumps. Small dents aren’t a problem (the back of a spoon heated in boiling water rubbed on the surface can draw out the dent), but any raised splinter or damage which cuts into the fibres of the wood may need repair. Get back to me if you notice any problems (E-mail me a picture). Similarly watch out for wear on the string.
My guarantee is my pride in my workmanship. It’s very unusual, but be aware any bow can break and while I will repair, replace or refund, I can’t be liable for any injury or damage (usually limited to a bump or scratch on the forehead worst case even with an exploding Warbow).
People ask, how long a bow will last. There is no good answer, 3 years is a reasonable minimum with regular moderate usage, but having said that one of my Yew bows that is over 40 years old and better now after some re-working than when it was new. I am always happy to help re-work, mend or refurbish my work to keep it in good shooting order.
Measure the bracing height and string length in case you need to make or buy another string. I fit a continuous loop string but a traditional string with a bowyer's knot at one end is fine as long as it doesn’t over brace the bow. (Note I don’t make replacement strings unless I have the bow to hand)
My bows are finished with Danish Oil and then wiped over with a Beeswax based polish (Lord Sheratons Furniture Balsam is stocked in Sainsburys and doubtless other shops).
The occasional wipe over is all it needs, but if it gets wet, wipe it dry and then wax it in a few hours when it’s really dried out.
Storage:- You want somewhere that doesn’t get too hot and dry or freezing and damp. My garage isn’t heated , but has some hot water pipes running through it, the doors are ill fitting so it’s nice and draughty, it has a bedroom above it and only 2 short outside walls. It is cool in summer and doesn’t get much below 10C in winter, perfect! Ideally a bow should be lying flat, but I have mine standing near vertical. What you don’t want is it slouched at steep angle with piles of junk resting on it.
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I might be wrong, but I'm guessing they could sue you if you gave one to them or donated one to. I really don't see anything wrong with selling one if both parties are happy whatever the price. I get the same questions Jeff all the time. What got you started at this? Are you going to shoot a deer with that? Do you sell them? And the one I always get a little chuckle inside from. Not a question but. You could make a lot of money doing that.lol
Bjrogg
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i think make it a give it away a few more times,, then if all goes well you can consider selling in the future,,
if they insist on giving you some money for materials etc,, you can make that decision at the time,,
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Yeah, I can’t make money on them if you do the math, but I have a room with lots of finished bows on the wall. I won’t make someone a “custom” bow as a rule, kids or friends being the exception, but I will sell one that’s finished. Customize it up a bit.
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I think whats more important than the price is that you are able to show him how to string the vow and take care of it.
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Or, you could suggest a donation to a charity, you know, like, I usually charge $x per hour, this took 20 hours, perhaps you could donate a suitable amount to ...
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I give them away as gifts to archers and friends.
Jawge
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Jeff your original question was how much. I think that's a personal thing. I know I have different prices for different reasons. Some people get a really good deal. Some pay a bit more. Some bows I'm not that attached to and some I'm very attached to. Some are in between. I honestly think as long as everyone is happy it's a good trade. I think we all worry about unscrupulous bowyers giving our selfbows a bad name. I do. Maybe we need some talented bowyers giving selfbows a good name. I hope whatever decisions you make you have a happy trade.
Bjrogg
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I agree with Pearly that if you make quality bows you should feel comfortable selling them.
The question then becomes, do I make good bows? I'm still in the process of answering that for myself.
My approach is to give them away to people I know will shoot them often and/or hunt with them. I've now given away 7 with no breaks and nothing but positive feedback. I gave the first one away about a year ago. I'm gonna give it another year, and if the record is still good, I'll feel comfortable selling them. If/when I do, I think I'd start with $300 for a simple bow made from quality materials.
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Jeff, you should sell and you have nothing to worry about. I am sure anyone buying one of your bows would be very satisfied with it. I have many people ask me where they could buy a bow like the one I got from you in the bow trade.
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If you are going to sell bows you should charge a decent price otherwise you are just undercutting a professional bowyers business.
Then you will get a ton of orders for one of your cheap bows, and soon realise you are working for peanuts. It either won't be worth your trouble, or you will have to drastically increase the prices, and people will still complain even if they are getting a fair deal.
People like a bargain, but they also won't value something if they think it was cheap.
There is a risk of someone suing if it breaks and injures the shooter, but that would be the same whether the bow was a gift or purchased.
I haven't heard of anyone getting sued from a self bow breaking. I have bought quite a few bows from professional bowyers all a round the world without any reservations, about them breaking. None have broken in my possession.
You definitely will need at very least verbal and/or written instruction about how to care for and not abuse a self bow or all wood bow. Otherwise you are asking for trouble. No dry firing, overdrawing, worn strings, too light arrows etc. Refunds will only be given if you get evidence the bow breaks from a fault in the materials or workmanship of the bowyer. Its pretty easy to tell how and why a bow breaks, from a bow autopsy.
Materials for bows are select material, with straight grain, free of knots, not run of the mill boards. A lot of hard work goes into selecting, cutting, splitting and drying wood until its suitable for bowmaking. That free stave of yew or osage you cut has retail value of at least $100-$250
depending upon the quality, so your final price needs to accurately reflect those values. Even a stave of ash, hickory or maple is worth at least $40. These prices have been the same for the last 25 years with no inflation.
$300 US would be a bare minimum for a quick to make reasonable bow from a whitewood. Decoration, heat treating, and or recurving, the price increases accordingly. Yew, or osage bows I have seen for around $500 up to around $1200. There are quite a few bowyers of incredible talent on this site that should be able to charge in the higher bracket. Most bowyers seem to charge a lot less. They aren't relying on it as a main income, and their "real job" is subsidising their semi pro hobby. Some bowyers are letting functional and artistic masterpieces of bows go for a bargain.
Eventually the Govt is going to notice your business, and they are going to want tax. Are you factoring that into the price?
When it comes down to it selling bows is a business like any other and if the figures don't add up, you aren't going top make a profit, and you will stop selling bows pretty quickly becaues the motivation is gone. I have seen this happen to many talented bowyers.
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I have sold about half the bows that I have made, between 75 and 100. I replace any broken ones no questions asked even though I suspect some were abused.
I started selling bows after my 40th bow when I thought my skills were up to par. I used the money for hunting club dues and equipment for my shop, for instance, my bandsaw is a three bow bandsaw.
My pet peeve is people who get stars in their eyes and think they have a Rembrandt of a bow when it is actually the equivalent of a child scribbling then sell it to someone who doesn't know better for big bucks.
The liability issue and not wanting a job (I turned down up to 12 people a month that wanted one of my bows) stopped my bow selling. I still donate bows to charity auctions and give one away every now and then but only to good friends.
I don't see anything wrong with selling bows but after turning a duck carving hobby into a business and getting burned out I have kept the bow making a labor of love, not a job.
I can admit now that the only one who knew about one of my bow sales was me and the customer. After spending around 75K on a traveling to tournaments as a vendor, trucks, trailers, chainsaws, shop building and a large assortment of power and hand tools to make 10K I felt the government had no business in my pocket.
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Thank you all for your perspective and expertise. I can't disagree with any of it, even when opinions contradict. There is no way I want to make a business out of making bows, or even a habit of selling bows much. I think every situation is different. In the one I in here, I feel like the best thing is to treat it like a professional, and charge fair price. But trading is by far my preferred method -- one of the reasons I like this site so much. At least in the trades I have been involved with here, people seem to go out of their way to make the other side happy. I have only had good and great experiences, and none that I would call bad (although I know they can happen).
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Maybe trade for a 50 cent an hour raise ;)
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My pricing started at $150 20 years ago, I raised it to $300 about 15 years ago, snake skins were the price of the skins and $50 to put them on. I could have gone much higher on my prices as all the FG bow prices skyrocketed but chose to keep it $300.
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sometimes gifting a bow to the boss,,, can be more benificial in the long run,, just a thought,, )P(
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sometimes gifting a bow to the boss,,, can be more benificial in the long run,, just a thought,, )P(
That's what I was thinking too.....
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Thought about that too, but it sounds like they are also looking for a business write off (how to use a bow in a therapy business, I don't know)--but the husband is also a bow hunter, so. . . Anyway, I am thinking about telling them that similar bows sell from between $300 and $1200 dollars, and let them name their own price--although if they were to try to offer me $1200 I would have to talk them down a bit.
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What's he wanting and have you made one like that before?
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Honesty is the best policy here. Let them know your skill level, share with them your intentions as to what you expect to end up with if all goes according to plan, and how long it will take. If they are eager at that point, then it's all on the table.
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There are a lot of good thoughts here. I think Hamish has a lot of great points that I would agree with. If you're just selling one or two and not making a habit of it I think you can get away with doing whatever feels comfortable for you and the other party.
Pricing self bows is a funny thing. There are people with weird ideas about selling self bows. They get some purist ideas about what should and shouldn't be done. I don't really get it. You don't see these attitudes with other types of crafts like bladesmithing or furniture making. No one gives people a hard time for selling these things at a price to make a living. Like Pearl Drums said, if you make good bows then don't worry about selling them.
When I price my bows Here are the things I have to consider... The true value of the wood (not necessarily what it cost me, but what it's worth if I sold it), the time it's going to take me to make it from start to finish, including extra stuff like recurves, skins, overlays, etc. ( what's your time really worth? don't give it away. Your expertise is worth something. You're not flipping burgers), I have to account for an occasional failed stave or aborted project, I have to pay an 11% federal excise tax on every bow I sell on top of my regular income taxes (that adds up fast over the course of a year), as a business I have to take into account all of the ancillary activity that I do that I'm not getting paid for (cutting staves, paperwork, errands, etc.) There are probably more things that I'm not thinking of off hand but you get the idea. I charge a high price for my bows and I'm not ashamed. I've spent years refining my craft (and I continue to do so). People value what they spend their hard earned money on and I'm not getting rich doing this. I can't control the fact that some people are willing to do highly skilled work for peanuts. I just focus on making the best bows I possibly can and I'm grateful that enough people recognize the hard work and expertise that goes into that they are willing to pay what I ask for them.
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It doesn't take much figuring to realize that people aren't getting rich off of selling hand made bows.
(15 hours, on the short end)x($25/hr, on the low end)= $375
Material sell price= ~$100
You're at $500 and that's if you are hustling and accepting a low wage considering your expertise and that you probably aren't doing this 40 hours a week.
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Thanks Weylin for sharing your perspective on this topic. It seems odd to me that people are alright with a trade, but not a sale. Some people like to trade with money. That is kinda what it's made for.lol
I wish you the best of luck in you business endeavor. I've never met you or even held one of your bows, but I'm sure there worth every penny and more. You are a very talented, artistic hard working bowyer. Your work deserves to be available to the Archery World.
Bjrogg
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I sell some and give some away. I always test the potential buyer. Sometimes I recommend a glass bow cause they are not ready for a selfbow quite yet. Wooden bows need some cares that a glass bow does not. I would rather not make a sell to a inexperienced archer. Purist has nothing to do with it. I just don't like seeing a good bow be ruined do to neglect. As for price. Well a dog is a dog no matter what it looks like. By the way I have built some dogs in the past! They did not bring much either. I know if you donate a good one at a place where there is a bunch of bowyers bidding it won't bring much. ;D But then it was a donation. So what it brings don't matter much. I think the 300-1200 falls true. Wish a good performer brought $1200. Arvin
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Arvin makes a good point, some people just arent ready to take care of a wooden bow.
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What's he wanting and have you made one like that before?
My wife showed him the bows I had posted to facebook--which are actually more the first few bows I ever made, so I have actually improved quite a bit since then, I think.
Weylin, your bows are all masterpieces--at least the ones you post. You deserve whatever you can get out of one.
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Anyway, I am thinking about telling them that similar bows sell from between $300 and $1200 dollars, and let them name their own price--although if they were to try to offer me $1200 I would have to talk them down a bit.
i think it could be better if you set your price. If you are in the mood of selling it looks more professional in my opinion otherwise may be seen as looking for charity and may lead to difficult relations if they offer too high or too low price
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ok u ask what should you charge, I skipped all around that answer,,
I think you should charge 500,,,if he thinks its to much,, then just give him one,, thats what I think,, :NN
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Perspective from a newbie, who lives far west of the bow jams/gatherings....
First, I'm intrigued by the "trade" culture of this forum. I'm more comfortable with the "trade for money" concept, but I'll get used to it and maybe drive east to a gathering and face to face interaction with you'all.
Second, the prices for finished bows seem really cheap to me. Especially when compared to any entry level compound bow, even the top shelf primitive bow prices are reasonable.
Third, the $300 price range seems incredibly low since nearly all osage staves online are around $120 plus $40 shipping.
Fourth, I've lusted after nearly all of Weylins bows, and was floored when I saw his bow ad on Etsy. I figured he'd be charging in the price range of pine hollow longbow custom bow price. Again, back to second point, I can't believe I could buy 2 Swiftwood bows for less than the $ I've invested in a mediocre compound bow I use for elk (still trying to make the switch to hunting with traditional bow, but that's another thread topic.
Also, I would love to trade $$ for an original Krewson gizmo if anyone has leads to a listing