Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tom Dulaney on May 01, 2019, 03:32:25 pm
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Actually, everything is beginning to make sense now.
Like, why every tree out there is spiral grained and warped. Why every stave seems to crack while attempting to bend it to the correct position. Why osage orange feels like a wet noodle in your hands. Why every arrow shoot seems to want to assume any position BUT straight. Why all the wood out there seems more like grass... than wood.
Turns out, carbon emissions and agricultural fertilizers have essentially ruined most modern trees.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/climate-change-making-trees-bigger-weaker
They found that in all four species, wood density has decreased by 8% to 12%, they report online in Forest Ecology and Management. “We expected a trend of the wood density like this, but not [such] a strong and significant decrease,” Pretzsch says. Increasing temperatures, and the faster growth they spur, probably account for some of the drop. But another factor, Pretzsch says, is more nitrogen in the soil from agricultural fertilizer and vehicle exhaust. Previous studies have linked increased fertilizer use to decreased wood density.
Keep in mind, that's just Germany. The USA uses way more fertilizer and has way more exhaust from trucks, cars, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if wood in this country has lost 20% of its density and mechanically advantageous properties.
This is why I'm making my bows out of bone, antler, horn and sinew in the future. All my arrows will be made of 5 inch pieces of exotic hardwood lap-spliced together with sinew wrappings, Eskimo style.
Woods that used to be considered good are now trash. Red osier dogwood? It's now willow. You gotta use semi-petrified mountain mahogany that died a hundred years ago to make straight arrow shafts now.
It's freaking over for us primitive archers. Wood has officially been degraded to the level of mild steel or even styrofoam. A junk material that is only good for building pedestrian bridges and dingy apartments for migrants to live in. Wood will never bend more than 5 degrees ever again without taking set.
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just because the wood is less dense does not mean its useless, im not stopping
:BB
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???
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A little alarmist, I haven't noticed any reduction in wood quality. I cut my own wood, as well as buy from timber merchants. Every tree is not weak, or spiral grained. Osage is not all noodles. Some individual trees of any species fit into these categories, but they always have and always will.
Wood can crack when you try to bend it. It usually means you are doing something wrong, like using wood that has been kiln dried, or seasoned for a very long time. Trying for too tight a curve, without proper support straps. Leaving the wood too thick are all common reasons. Even some of the most experienced guys make these mistakes sometimes.
Tom you sound a little stressed, perhaps depressed? I'm not meaning to have a go at you, I have suffered from depression and have gone through periods where it feels like everything goes wrong no matter what.
I would have thought a carbon rich environment would be exactly what would help increase carbon storage, and density, in plants. I'm not a scientist, but the original assertion sounds counter intuitive.
All the trees mentioned sound like plantation trees. Conifers and oaks which seem to have less density than wild grown trees, many have a reputation for not being as good as wood from naturally regenerated forests. This reputation has been observed before anyone was ever concerned about man made climate change. Conditions that make good growing for a hardwood, can cause poor density for softwoods. The trees(hardwoods) with the highest density grow in warm tropical, and equatorial conditions, and are exposed to longer lengths, and more intense sunlight.
I'd want to see a lot more information before I start to go Chicken Little, and think the sky is falling in. Every couple of years the "experts" in the world of science tell us eggs are great for you. A couple of years later eggs are going to kill you. The same thing with fat or sugar, coffee, alcohol or whatever. What passes for science these days in mainstream media is usually sensationalist, doesn't show the whole picture, or is from a tiny sample, that it may not be indicative of the truth.
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Well put Hamish.
I wish this live oak I’m working was less dense. It dulls my tools in no time
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I roughed out 3 HHB's today. Guess they didn't read the article. I feel like I got a good workout.
Bjrogg
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tom,
if you are actually having trouble with the wood you harvest, there are things you can/could do to improve your odds
1. harvest species that are at the northern extent of it range in you location
2. avoid windy areas to find straight grain
3.look for healthy trees grown in well watered good soils
and travel a bit to get away from highways and farmland if you want to minimize these concerns.
and after reading that article, it seems to me that if the climate is warming, then the differences noted might just be that tree range might not be keeping up with climate change. a factor not addressed in the
article... see #1
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Why would exotic hardwood be immune to this malady? Or Horn bone and sinew for that matter?
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ooh live oak, havent seen one of those, be sure to post
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I guess there is some truth to modern science. A lot of green house plants are now shriveling up no matter how much Water they have.
I try not to think about it to much but rather live like I have always lived rather than Dwelling on the negative effects of pollution.
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And the mammoth are disappearing! Trees are about the last plants to respond to warming trends if I remember correctly. Careful selection of the wood is the key, IMO. I agree with Hamish, there are always exceptions, and rules may be somewhat arbitrary!
Hawkdancer
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Sounds dubious to me, maybe true of fast grown trees in areas that are polluted and have been over managed or have suffered from some of the extreme effects of climate change.
Del
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Good post Tom - I like your sense of humor!
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Junk science fuels the man made global warming crisis conclusion, it sounds like more junk science in this report. The junk science narrative gets big bucks for more research, reporting the actual facts will get a researcher nothing.
I doubt if you can find one bow maker in the US that has seen a decline in the quality of their bow wood. I only have 25 years in the process of making bows but nothing has changed woodwise in the limited of time I have been at it.
I have cut my wood in a wide variety of places; road right of ways, deep woods, agricultural edges and vacant lots, it's all good. I do find places where the wood is consistently as dense as a brick or consistently thick ringed and light, growing conditions make a big difference.
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Here's where you lost me... "Actually, everything is beginning to make sense now. Like, why every tree out there is spiral grained and warped."
That's ridiculous. What are you, on drugs?
Next subject.
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That's it! I'm getting into fly rod building and selling all my staves, hell, I will give them all away to any of you suckers that aren't picking up what Tommy is throwing down. Thanks for the heads up Tommy boy.
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Pretty sure Tom had the sarcasm turned up to 11. . .
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Just as a way of...shedding some light here. He has an earlier post asking how to back a bow with the toenail clippings he’s been saving (I’m assuming throughout his life in order to have enough..or maybe he has collected from others for his supply). Surely some trolling going on.
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Well I’d put the toenails on the belly since they are similar to horn. Come on maannn!
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Tom breath, if this is happening we can adapt and someone will find a way to fix it or make wood denser, people before have said that traditional boyering is over, now our numbers are growing! all will be well.
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We can all relax and enjoy bow building with great wood for at least another 45 billion years. The sky is not falling and the world will not come to an end until the sun is burned out. This is projected to happen by scientists in 50 billion years.
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well, technically the sun will go red giant well before then, at which point it will expand beyond the orbit of the earth, blowing out our atmosphere, and with it the oceans. So best-case scenario we only have 5 billion years to find a way off this rock, and realistically, our osage wood will be no good for bows several million years before that, so what will be the point of even trying any more beyond maybe 4.5 billion years from now? Until then, let's keep making shavings.
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LOL Tom, Pretty funny. I thought you were supposed to drop those on Apr 1, not May1?
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my wood is still good,, :BB
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I've noticed as I age, my wood.... well, is it ok to finish this sentence?
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I'm much more worried about the effect increased stress induced by more extreme weather may have on frequency of under bark beetles and pathogenic fungi, not to mention invasive species and pathogens brought form overseas.
Ash has been hit pretty hard around here by Hymenoscyphus fraxineus. When emerald ash borer arrives it'll be game over for ash. There is a pathogenic fungi causing cankers on maple, elm has been near non-existent since 1980s and who knows what else is going to show up next.