Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Mesophilic on January 31, 2019, 09:18:19 am
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Disclaimer: the following may contain content not suitable for all viewers.
I live in Los Alamos, and consequently rub shoulders with very over educated people...ivory tower PhD types.
I was talking with a gentleman about the horn bow I've been working on, materials involved, and the time/patience involved.
He suggested in place of the horn, using fffffffffffffglass instead. I told him that just wouldn't do. First, I told him it wouldn't be very primative and that's my ultimate goal. Second of all it wouldn't be cool as people already make and sell ffffffffffffglass copies of Asiatic bows for pennies on the dollar compared to a traditional composite bow. And third it would probably over power the sinew anyway, forcing me to use it on the back as well...and then what's the point?
He mentions that if there were a magical tree or animal with special silica based fibers, would not the Native Americans have pounded, stripped, processed those materials in to a superior weapon? They took up steel and even the gun awful quick when they gave advantages.
I'm not the brightest spoon in the drawer so I need some help here. Do any of you guys have a good argument on why we use horn on a bow belly versus that other stuff? Maybe something related to compression strength? I tried searching the web but I'm neither an engineer or educated in material science so alot of it is just mumbojumbo. Aside from personal tastes, I'm trying to come up with reasons that a materials scientist could understand as to why I would ho through all the trouble of cutting, boiling, shaping, the lovely aromas...etc.
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Modulus of elasticity. The reason the bows are shaped the way they are is due to the materials. In addition, 'glass and epoxy are not long life materials. Hide glue will hold for hundreds of years proven. My 'glass boat is maybe 50 (maybe) and needs complete refinishing, and it doesn't flex intentionally.
Manchu bows made of man-made materials only superficially look like originals and don't perform the same. If you want it the same, make it that way.
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Because you want to! You don't need any more explanation than that ;D ;D
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He mentions that if there were a magical tree or animal with special silica based fibers, would not the Native Americans have pounded, stripped, processed those materials in to a superior weapon?
Maybe but there is no such tree or animal.
Bottom line is that by making any sort of bow, even a glass one, you are drawing a line somewhere. The line for you is just in a different spot.
Let's face it, the string and glue line is not matched up with the other bow materials for most of us.
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Because u want to learn an ancient craft
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Environmentally friendly - glass and epoxy are really nasty stuff - hide glue and other animal products are not, also, do you really want to build a bow wearing all that Personal Protection Equipment (minimum of respirator, paper-suit and latex gloves)
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reconstructive archaeology - if you want to see what ancient weapons were capable of you have to build them from authentic materials, if you want to know how ancient societies may have functioned, you need to use authentic techniques
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there are lots of scientist that study ancient archery,, they are not interested in fiberglass,,
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Thanks, guys. Excellent bullet points for my next discussion.
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I agree that they used the best of what they had. If FG grew on trees and epoxy could be mined from the creek bottoms you can bet it would have been used.
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Osage,yew,sinew , horn are all magical, all natural,and make a superb weapons in the right proportions.He just doesn't understand that.
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Why not 3D print a bow too while we're at it? Cause the native Americans would have used that technology too if they had it :o
I'd say this guy is not worth wasting your breath on.
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Back in the 1700's(I think) a Turkish(I think) prince shot an arrow from his composite horn bow that went over 900 yards(I think, maybe more). I've never heard of any FG bow coming anywhere close to that distance. I think this man's problem is he is afflicted with FG mentality. It affects lots of folks that just can't imagine that folks way back then could be as smart as we are. IMO, they had to be smarter to survive with what they had to work with instead of having someone else do it for them. )P(
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Back in the 1700's(I think) a Turkish(I think) prince shot an arrow from his composite horn bow that went over 900 yards(I think, maybe more). I've never heard of any FG bow coming anywhere close to that distance. I think this man's problem is he is afflicted with FG mentality. It affects lots of folks that just can't imagine that folks way back then could be as smart as we are. IMO, they had to be smarter to survive with what they had to work with instead of having someone else do it for them. )P(
Actually the glass record even for the less drastic non- keyhole style is well beyond the old Turkish record.
Don Brown's record is over 1200 yards.
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Disclaimer: the following may contain content not suitable for all viewers.
Do any of you guys have a good argument on why we use horn on a bow belly versus that other stuff? Maybe something related to compression strength?
other than the fact that he seems to be missing your point, horn (and sinew) can make a horse bow that cannot be made with other primitive materiels.
PS. Edwards, did you mean superior elasticity rather than MOE?
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Yes I did. I knew I got something off, but I was at the doctor's office and it wasn't a fun visit. But you are correct, looked it up and I had the wrong line on the list.
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And if there ever comes a day when you are lost in the woods for weeks at a time or society takes a giant leap backwards due to disease or otherwise, you'll be hard pressed to find fiberglass and resin growing in the woods. Learning a traditional art is the act of preserving that knowledge for a time when it may be needed again.
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This :
https://youtu.be/vfdcXbUazKk
regards,
Scyth
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I stand corrected, Pat.
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What he said is just silly. Don't engage him. :)
For the record horn is strong in compression. Don't know how it compares to fff.
Can't say it. :)
Jawge
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Back in the 1700's(I think) a Turkish(I think) prince shot an arrow from his composite horn bow that went over 900 yards(I think, maybe more). I've never heard of any FG bow coming anywhere close to that distance. I think this man's problem is he is afflicted with FG mentality. It affects lots of folks that just can't imagine that folks way back then could be as smart as we are. IMO, they had to be smarter to survive with what they had to work with instead of having someone else do it for them. )P(
Actually the glass record even for the less drastic non- keyhole style is well beyond the old Turkish record.
Don Brown's record is over 1200 yards.
The new traditional archery record is 897.66 meters set by Josef Mónus :
https://dailynewshungary.com/hungarian-archers-set-new-world-records-in-the-us/
regards,
Scyth
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I think the main point is, you can make hornbows a lot more reflexed and shorter than fg bows. Also, Adam Karpowicz shooting his hornbows 400fps... those are quite fast. Even the old 800m ottoman records could be broken in my opinion. Adam has done 724m (790y) with 120 pound bow and 790m (862m) with a 163 pound bow. All shot with a shooting machine, unfortunately.
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the capability of natural materials is as magical as an industrial processed fibers never can be. I worked a lot with FG and Epoxy (not on bows, only parts for Prototyps ) and I hated it. Awful stuff to work with - I would prefer some deep breath of yew sawdust.
BACK TO WOOD !!! BACK TO THE WOODS !!! BACK TO THE ROOTS
Natural materials will grow at its own and don't pollute the environment after. I would like to know how a rotted FG Bow looks like.
I hope people will notice soon the quality of natural materials again, stop to rebuy fancy plastic products which will break anyway again because they are designed to do so.
I pray for my kids, and hope plastic age is over soon.
B2TW
I just figured out my username isn't correct BACK TO WOOD was my intention and not Back to the wood(s).
I have 2 FG Bows and I shot 1of them only once to compare it with a self bow.
So I changed my username to Back to wood
sorry for my English
B2W
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Back in the 1700's(I think) a Turkish(I think) prince shot an arrow from his composite horn bow that went over 900 yards(I think, maybe more). I've never heard of any FG bow coming anywhere close to that distance. I think this man's problem is he is afflicted with FG mentality. It affects lots of folks that just can't imagine that folks way back then could be as smart as we are. IMO, they had to be smarter to survive with what they had to work with instead of having someone else do it for them. )P(
Actually the glass record even for the less drastic non- keyhole style is well beyond the old Turkish record.
Don Brown's record is over 1200 yards.
The new traditional archery record is 897.66 meters set by Josef Mónus :
https://dailynewshungary.com/hungarian-archers-set-new-world-records-in-the-us/
regards,
Scyth
Monus has all kinds of records but he doesn't have one that beats the old Turk record while using a simple bow.. The one above is a compound bow record.
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If the Primitive Man could have just had his wife go to the grocery store and bring home dinner he probably would have to. Don't see why that has anything to do with putting FG on a horn bow. It is a horn bow, right?
Bjrogg
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reconstructive archaeology - if you want to see what ancient weapons were capable of you have to build them from authentic materials, if you want to know how ancient societies may have functioned, you need to use authentic techniques
[/quote
i think this sums it up pretty well]
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This is what I would tell him if I make a FG bow it will only take me 1 week end if I make a horn composite bow it will take me 10 weekends & thats 10 week ends I dont have to do my wifes honey do list ;D
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You stick to your guns (bows?) cheese. I take great pleasure in using all natural materials for my bows..... string and all. It really surprises people that such an attractive and functional weapon can be made naturally. I think we lose sight of our very capable, yet technology-free past. Just because we make most everything from plastic these days, it's not because we really have to!
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A doctor at hospital where I work heard me talking about bows and chimed in "you know they sell those in stores right?" Nope, not these. Every one is different and unique which makes it a work of art that serves a purpose. Can't mass produce that.
This guy likes to fish and hunts deer "they sell meat and fish in the stores. why not just go buy those?"
Cause it is our link to something almost gone from modern life. Same reason people go camping. Get back to the beast baby!
All I need to know is that I love doing this stuff. I'm not 100% primitive. I use TB3, buy string material and other stuff, modern finishes, chainsaw....
I just don't have to answer to anybody on why unless I want to and with yoiu guys I probably don't need to anyway. You either get it or ya don't.
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:sometimes people are just curious
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Many people don't even realize there's a difference between FG and what we make. They just like myself not that many years ago don't really know what a selfbow is.
Bjrogg