Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on September 23, 2018, 08:29:31 am
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Well, the main archery season is almost over. No hoofed critters yet; I did whack a rabbit and scared the daylights out of a ruffed grouse. Anyway, as hunting winds down, my thoughts are turning to a new bow to replace the one that broke. I've been doing a lot of reading about designs, woods, and such. I'd like to throw out a few ideas and solicit opinions from some of you who have more experience with primitive bows.
I should mention this is not a bow I'm going to make myself. Maybe someday. But for this one I'll be getting a pro to make it for me. I am considering and talking with several different boyers (thanks for the recommendations in other discussions).
Here's what I'm thinking:
--70-72" flatbow. I just like the feel of a longer bow, even for hunting. I tend to be more accurate and comfortable with them.
--55# @ 28". This will be an elk bow, so it needs to be pretty darn zippy.
--Bamboo backed for speed and durability. Sinew would be cool, but I like to hunt rain or shine; besides, who can afford it?
--Chokecherry, osage, or similar. Something that is tough and shoots fast. I like the idea of chokecherry because it grows around here, plus it's a really beautiful wood. Osage might be more realistic.
--Straight or slightly reflexed. One boyer told me that a slightly reflexed wood/bamboo bow will eventually settle down to be straight. I could live with that.
--Semi-narrow, ELB-style grip. I prefer to shoot off the knuckle, but I'd consider a shelf.
--Dark stained, matte finish. I hunt semi-open country a lot, and deer and elk hold a negative opinion about shiny bows. I know. I've done the research. ???
--I'm not too concerned with aesthetic beauty. I appreciate all those eye-candy touches, but great-shooting bows tend to look good enough for me.
--Basically I want a no-frills bow that draws smooth, hits hard, and will stand up to tough use in elk country.
Am I on the right track?
Thomas
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y thinking...
A longer bow is more accurate and more stable and can be used in any hunting situations if you do your homework.
IMO, boo is not more durable. Hickory backing would be. Boo is faster but not that much more.
Osage or ipe would be very good belly options. I'm not familiar with choke cherry.
Your backing and belly will determine the width, length will help also. Boo probably won't be wider than 1 3/8".
The color of the bow shouldn't make a difference, the amount of shine will.
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If you want both fast and smooth you are not going to get there with a 72” osage, will be smooth but osage has to much mass to be really fast at that length. (Unless you make it ridiculously narrow but that is not really practical for a hunting bow) I would consider a 64/66 reflex deflex. Still long and smooth but also fast. The deflex will also help to keep the strain at brace a little lower so the bow doen not care if it is strung all day
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Thanks, Leon and Pat. It's interesting (and a bit overwhelming for a relative newbie) how the different variables affect each other. I've read that boo/osage is one of the fastest primitive combinations available. But one has to keep in mind that the expert saying that is probably trying to sell something. It gets confusing. :)
It seems like fast cast and stability/smooth draw are sort opposing forces, and a lot of bow making (or in my case, bow ordering) is finding the balance between the two. Would that be correct? I have an old glass/wood recurve that is blisteringly fast, but I never could hit the mark with any consistency. I guess I'd rather have the arrow get where I want it a bit slower than get nowhere fast.
Another question: All of my bows have been "manufactured" rather than custom, and from my experience with those, I know that 55# @ 28" is about as heavy as I can draw comfortably and shoot accurately. But my draw length is actually right at 30". How does that affect draw weight and what I should order? I have a terrible feeling that the answer is going to be, "It depends on the bow." ha ha ha
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I'm never sure if bow dogma is being resurrected or re-created....
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A Sudbury style hickory selfbow shooting 170 FPS.
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Generally about 3# per inch with most bows.
I think mistakes are multiplied with faster bows but accurate shooting shouldn't be affected if you are consistent. Boo and osage are a great combo. I've had bad luck with boo splintering which could be my problem in prepping it. I prefer hickory backing because of ease of applying and overall durability. And you don't loose that much in the speed department compared with boo.
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I think I'm going to have to read the Boyer's Bible just to learn enough to have someone else build a bow for me! ha ha
So, anybody ever try chokecherry? If I ever do get into bow building it will probably be choke cherry or juniper, since those are about the only bow woods that grow around here.
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My opinion.
Your Idea about a longer bow being smoother and more accurate is mostly right but you will give up a performance if you don't load the limbs appropriately. You can do this with a longer riser/less working limb but you may not like that tiller profile and the way it draws and shoots.
I use multiple lams in my backed wooden bows for two reasons.
I can and do use quarter sawn lams in the cores for good stability, consistency and speed but on the very belly I will lay a flat sawn lam for it's looks, much of this flat sawn lam is tillered away but you still get the look of flat sawn lumber.
Second reason is because multiple laminates glued together will maintain their profile and not end up straight as you were told.
Osage is a great choice as is Yew, Red Elm, Hard Maple, Hickory and quite a few others. I don't have any experience with Choke Cherry.
As others have said there isn't anything really wrong with flat sawn lumber for a bow......I like the selfbow analogy...they are all flat sawn but in a laminated bow you have the option to use quarter sawn and I do feel it's a bit more stable because of the orientation of the rings.
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I think I'm going to have to read the Boyer's Bible just to learn enough to have someone else build a bow for me! ha ha
So, anybody ever try chokecherry? If I ever do get into bow building it will probably be choke cherry or juniper, since those are about the only bow woods that grow around here.
If you do get into bow building and the bow you enjoy shooting is an English longbow style, then you should enjoy shooting an eastern woodlands style bow. They are as straight forward as it gets from a building standpoint and shooting mechanics should be the same as your elb I would think. I haven’t used juniper or chokecherry, I know people make sinew backed juniper a lot but that is a different level. If your local lumber yard has hickory boards available, and you can find straight grained stock, you could make an eastern woodlands bow in a couple afternoons for a couple bucks.
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@Mark Smeltzer OK, I had to look up quarter sawn lumber. Interesting! I never thought about it before, but I could see where using different cuts for different laminations could make a difference. My all time favorite bow is an ELB with three lams of hickory and a bamboo backing. That's the one with cracks in the belly. Not long for this world, but a beautiful shooting bow, even now. Not extremely fast, but just feels really good. It sure didn't stand the durability test, though.
@Morgan Yeah, I like the eastern woodlands style. Very similar to what a lot of people call the American Longbow or American Flatbow. It really does seem to be an elegant design. It seems almost inevitable that I'm going to have to build one some day. Not yet.
Thanks again for all the insights, everybody. I am learning a huge amount around here. Fun stuff. Thomas
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TBB4 has good info on how to make fast, long bows, in "Design and Performance Revisited". Besides the riser being longer, the outer limbs can be made stiff and light.
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consider mulberry it is very close cousin of osage orange made several bows from it it beautiful wood and durable ( can be very snaky ) made a bamboo backed one with beef rib tips shoots real smooth and fast about 65# @ 28
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So, does bamboo tend to follow the string? I've had two boo/hickory bows (one multi-lammed, one not) and they both took on a pretty good string follow after a few hundred shots. Is that to be expected?
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Nope. My guess is that the bows you were shooting weren't designed for your long draw of 30". Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you are trying to draw conclusions with not enough data points.
A good bowyer could make you a nice shooting reliable bow with almost any of the known bow woods. The list is very long... Look up List of Potential Bow Wood Species. It boils down to what you want and what the bowyer has the most confidence in.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you are trying to draw conclusions with not enough data points.
A good bowyer could make you a nice shooting reliable bow with almost any of the known bow woods. The list is very long... Look up List of Potential Bow Wood Species. It boils down to what you want and what the bowyer has the most confidence in.
No offense taken, Ben. You are absolutely right--that's why I keep asking so many questions! ha ha My opportunities to try out different bows are extremely limited, so it is a challenge trying to define what I want so I can have an intelligent conversation with a bowyer.
I have been reading a LOT about different bow woods. You're right, it's a bit bewildering. Fascinating, too. There is so much info online it's hard to know what to take seriously, sometimes (like the assertion that bamboo always follows the string, which I recently read somewhere). A lot of you have firsthand experience, and there's no substitute for that. I really appreciate everybody's input.
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Well, after carefully considering all of the above, doing a lot of reading, and talking to a few different bowyers, I decided to order a black locust selfbow from Curt Brisky. Should have it around the middle of next month. Needless to say, the wait is driving me crazy.
Here's a fun little sub plot to this story: I'm also a musician, playing and recording Celtic music (among other things, I play the pennywhistle, thus the first part of my online nickname). About the same time I was ordering this bow, I was also ordering a new bodhran (Irish drum). The drum maker, who happens to live just a few miles away from Mr. Brisky, happened to mention that he has some beautiful black locust lying around. So, it looks like I'm going to be the only person I know who has a matching bow and bodhran set. Not that I plan on using them together, all that much. I find that wild critters in general are not music lovers. :-D
Anyway, thanks for all the advice and help as I was figuring out what I wanted. Much appreciated. Thomas
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Methinks, the penny whistle would work better on game than the bodhran! The problem arises when you try to put down the whistle and pick up the bow (SH) :-D :G (B) (-_) -C- (lol)! I would have a similar problem with my harp, so I don't hunt with it >:D (lol)! But my dogs usually come in when I am practicing. Little Fiddle Woman is the musician, I'm the seannachie!
Hawkdancer
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Methinks, the penny whistle would work better on game than the bodhran! The problem arises when you try to put down the whistle and pick up the bow (SH) :-D :G (B) (-_) -C- (lol)! I would have a similar problem with my harp, so I don't hunt with it >:D (lol)! But my dogs usually come in when I am practicing. Little Fiddle Woman is the musician, I'm the seannachie!
Hawkdancer
Well, some of my beginning students do a pretty fair approximation of an elk bugle, but I still don't think the elk would be impressed.
I did have a friend make me a very skinny whistle out of an aluminum arrow shaft, one time. That was a fun one. I've never tried to learn the harp, but I sure love listening to it.