Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Tinker on July 30, 2018, 02:30:49 pm
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Hello everyone.
I'm about to try my hand at building my first set of arrows. I'm using dogwood arrow shafts because they are long enough for me to work with, and the price was right. I have a 34" draw and I will be shooting them from my 50# self bow.
I know I will have to turn the ends down for my pionts on the fat end, and my fletching will go on the skinny end along with cutting my knock.
I am looking for helpful tips from those that have done this build before.
Thank you: Tinker
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With a wing span like you got, you may benefit by learning about war bow arrows?
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Tinker, I've made a few from Red Osier Dogwood shoots. I like to harvest them on the thicker side and file them to the right spine with my rasp. I file from a little behind center and forward till I get the spine I'm wanting. Then I file the front till I get the weight I'm wanting. I like to bareshaft to tune my arrows to my bow.
It seems like I need about 8 lbs heavier spine for tapered arrows. They flex further back putting more weight ahead of the bend. They are stiffer on impact though.
With a 34" long draw your going to need a pretty stiff shaft. I think the formula is something like add 5 lbs for each inch over 28 inches. I might have that wrong. If so someone please correct me. I believe that's with a 125 grain point.
For points there are several options.
1) sometimes I just use screw in points. First I wrap the end of shaft with sinew to keep it from splitting. Then I drill a hole slightly smaller diameter then the threaded section of the screw on point. Then drill the first quarter inch with a drill the size of the shoulder or unthreaded section of points. Then I screw it in. Usually it will stay right in especially if shaft is slightly larger diameter than point, but sometimes I put a bit of pitch glue on to help hold it in place.
2) you can tapper the tip and use glue on point. No need to wrap sinew on front of shaft then.
3) you could use double headed nail and grind off the first head grinding shank between heads into a sharp point. You will have to wrap Dogwood shaft with sinew. Then drill arrow shaft with a drill diameter that fits snugly. You can cut shank of nail to get the weight you want. Dbar is the man for this point.
For self knocks again wrap the end of shaft. I use two hacksaw blades to cut my knock. Then I file it till it snugly fits my string with my leatherman.
Hope that helps you out they make some beautiful durable arrows. They can take a bit of work to keep straight.
Bjrogg
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For self nocks i use a drill bit slightly larger than the served string. I drill a hole straight through where the string will sit, 90 degrees to the rings ( prevents split out ). The i take an exacto blade, and slice it from the back of the arrow to the hole. I then take small slices off, making the nock, until the string pops tightly with force through the split and into the drilled hole. Thwn i use sandpaper to round the edges well. By time the edges are rounded nicely, the string takes just the right amount of force to pop in and out of the nock.
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With your draw length you could probably fletch up some 1/2" oak dowels and use them for arrows ;D
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With your draw length you could probably fletch up some 1/2" oak dowels and use them for arrows ;D
Thanks for the encouragement!!! LOL!!!
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So far what I have is 14 36" dogwood arrow shafts I picked up at MOJAM this year. They are straightened and seasoned. They rainge from 739gr to 1027gr @36" long. I have 190gr 11/32 glue on field points. I have gateway 5" shield cut feathers R/W. I also have glue for the points and feathers. I don't know if this helps with any questions.
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You are gonna need a heavier bow, or shoot downhill....
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You are gonna need a heavier bow, or shoot downhill....
I know I will have to lighten them up.
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Tinker...I remember you needing those at Mo Jam.Good that you bring this up.Many ways to skin a cat here.I've skinned quite a few dozen of these.With 14 to start with be happy to get 12 good ones.If your using glue on 125 grain field points or broadheads cut your shafts to 35.25" long for your 34" draw after you get them spined to what you want.The 3/8" deep self nock[don't worry about grain as these are little trees your shooting and growth rings,not straight line grain as in split timber shafts but still wrap them below the nock a good 3/8"] and the 3/4" long taper for the field point will leave you 34" to the back of the field point to throat of the nock then.The tools I use are a spiner/grain scale/2" by 4" ,6" block of wood with 36 grit sandpaper/and a chunk of moose antler with holes drilled in it 5/16",11/32",23/64",and 3/8" as a sizer.Make sure your shafts are straight before spining them.Heat straighten them if you got to before taking all bows if any out of them.I use a lamp with a mantle round with with a tall glass chimney.Hot enough up there to light a cig if needed.After that spine them.Remove material with block and sand paper on flat work bench.Keep spining them between material removal.Try to keep your full length taper while doing this.When within 5#'s of spine weight go to finer sand paper to fine tune it to your spine.I lots of times use a 1/4" drill then.You can check diameter with your sizer.
At your 34" draw length on a 50# bow using FF string[you'll need 5# stiffer spine using FF than using B-50] your spine should be somewheres' around 75 to 80 pounds but I dare bet 70#'s will shoot fine off the 50# bow at the shaft length you got there.As said every 1" over 28" add 5#'s spine.Full length taper is very forgivable on these shafts.So as you can see there won't be much material removal for you to take off.I would imagine you can get away with 11/32" nocks out to at least 23/64" tips or more.You can shape just the tip area for your glue on 23/64" field tip or broadhead.I've never made them that long before but my guess would be you would have shafts into the 700 grain area.I know your a crafty guy.Let me know what you come up with.I shoot 600 to 650 grain arrows of 45# bows myself all the time.
PS....Take your time.It'll be worth it in the long run.Most times after you make 1 the rest will come close to what that 1 was,as they were all harvested in the same area.Good luck.
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Tinker I think I read you have 190 grain points. Those will require a even stiffer shaft. I believe it's add another 5 lbs for every 25 grains over 125. Your going to need another almost 15 lbs of spine using those weight heads. I think I'd try getting some 125 grains points. Your going to end up with a Atlatl dart for a arrow.
I'm thinking Ed's probably about right for a 125 grain point. I'm thinking around 75 or 80 lbs at that length. I've never made one that long though either.
Bjrogg
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You may be best off sourcing cane for arrows and using footed shaft inserts. Obviously use what you got now, but, for future, cane can get stiff without much weight.
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Correct about the grain gain to spine flucuation.Forgot to mention that.Get rid of those 190 grain points.Not needed here.You'll have more than enough KE from those your gonna shoot....lol.These shafts are doable with dogwoods.
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I agree with Ed. I think those shafts will work for you but I'd switch to 125 grain points.
Bjrogg
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I just spined ones exactly as the ones you got from me.There is plenty of length and wood there.The nock ends will be close to 23/64" and the tip ends will be close to 3/8" or a shade less than that in the end at 35.25" long.At that thickness they are into 80 to 85 pound spine range.
I think you would be better off using a good 60# bow+ though as the mass weight will be mid to upper 700's.
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I have to say thank you to everyone for all your help with this matter so far. I guess I'm now on the hunt for some different points.
Thanks: Tinker
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Ok so I'm looking on Amazon and finding 125 gr points. I'm seeing them in three ID. 5/16, 11/32, and 23/64. My question is 11/32 or 23/64, and why please?
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You want the shaft to be a bigger diameter than the outside diameter of the point.
Why, because lost points in targets sucks.
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I would just get your shafts made first.When using a tapering tool for your point you'll see what type points you'll need.More than likely I would say you would be using a 23/64" tips at 125 grains.They are cheap and not hard to find.Traditional archery suppliers carry them.
I solve the points from coming off some time ago from any 3D target out there by drilling a 1/16" hole through the field tip point.I shoot a lot of 3D and none of my tips pull off any more.When using a ferr-l-tite glue stick I use a torch to melt a fair amount of glue onto your tapered shaft point.I heat the field tip up with the torch holding it with a pliers heating the inside of it to make sure all finishing oil is burned off.I then reheat to liquify the glue on the shaft and press the field tip on securely with a twist using the pliers.All air will leave from inside the tip indicated by the oozing of glue out of the two 1/16" holes.If your taper on your shaft is done correctly it will go on good and straight.You can do a spin test to see.If too much wobble is present at the tip heat tip back up and put it on straighter.
Dogwood shafts do not need to be perfectly straight as store bought shafts either,but some of yours may very well be perfectly straight too. A slight wiggle in them is fine in the main shaft.As long as the nock and tip are in line it should be fine.No bends by the nock end or tip end is preferred by me.A bowed shaft needs correction though.
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So ED,
Never heard of the 1/16" hole trick. Are you pinning it or is just the glue coming out of the holes holding the point in place.
How far down do you drill the two holes?
I always need to know the why's on things. :)
Thanks,
DBar
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.All air will leave from inside the tip indicated by the oozing of glue out of the two 1/16" holes
Bill....I drill the holes completely through both sides.Somewhere along the way in the middle of your field tip.Thought I would try it years ago and it definitely works for me for keeping the glue on points shot into any kind of 3D foam.There is some tough 3D foam out there.My tips stay on bud.I use a proper tapering tool on the shaft tip also for matching to put on glue-on tips.I've never needed to pin them to the shaft though.
I believe it's because there is total surface area contact of metal and wood with glue in between.
PS....The reality of this solution of mine is that most 3D tournament shoots are dominated by the compounders.So Targets are made tougher yet to accomodate and handle the 9/32" to 5/16" carbon shafts going 300 fps the compounders shoot.They have screw on tips locked on with lock tite too.The traditional fellas I shoot with still go to the 3D shoots anyway.I realize not everybody does this though too.So goes progress right?
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Tinker....Making a complete set of 12 shoot shafts can take me a whole weekend.You can go as primitive along the way as you like.I can have close to 1.5 hour in time into each shaft,but in the end can have only pennies of investment into each shaft.That's harvesting your own of course.I know they are tougher than my DF's or other split timber shafts of mine.Right up there with bamboo in toughness degree.
I make plain Jane type shafts with no painting or staining put onto them myself but some others do a great job of doing that also.Each to his own.
I use gasket lacquer coating with echo dipper for a finish and then ducco glue for glueing on feathers using an Arizona fletcher.The combo of gasket lacquer and ducco is an excellent bond.My feathers don't come off either.Even after being submerged in water for some time or in heavily dewed grass.
PS....With that long of draw at 34" it's going to be hard with natural materials to stay away from higher massed arrow shafts,but it's doable.
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PS....With that long of draw at 34" it's going to be hard with natural materials to stay away from higher massed arrow shafts,but it's doable.
Hey Tinker
I got some Tonkin cane from eddie (mullet) at the classic a few years back that would be great for your draw lenght. Small diameter and very stiff.
Check out the tonkin cane for your draw length. It's a little time consuming straighting but well worth the effort.
I have had some luck straighting cane in the past, I be up for some kinda trade with the beautiful tin stuff you do. Just let me know.
DBar
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PS....With that long of draw at 34" it's going to be hard with natural materials to stay away from higher massed arrow shafts,but it's doable.
Hey Tinker
I got some Tonkin cane from eddie (mullet) at the classic a few years back that would be great for your draw lenght. Small diameter and very stiff.
Check out the tonkin cane for your draw length. It's a little time consuming straighting but well worth the effort.
I have had some luck straighting cane in the past, I be up for some kinda trade with the beautiful tin stuff you do. Just let me know.
DBar
I will look into the cane. I have a patch here at home along the creek, but it will be several months before I dare to cut any. I can see a possible trade.
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If I'm understanding Ed properly, he is saying to fletch the fat end of the arrow shaft and place the polnt on the skinnier end. I was told by another individual at Mojam to do the opposite. I can reduce weight a little bit at a time by sanding then shoot it to test.
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If I'm understanding Ed properly, he is saying to fletch the fat end of the arrow shaft and place the polnt on the skinnier end. I was told by another individual at Mojam to do the opposite. I can reduce weight a little bit at a time by sanding then shoot it to test.
I might be missing it but I didn't see where Ed said that. It would allow you to use a weaker spine shaft though. When I first started making arrows I used forsythia for shafts. I really didn't know much about making or tuning arrows. I put the fletching on the fat end point on skinny end. I actually got pretty good arrow flight out of the weaker spines. When I found out everyone else put fletching on skinny end and tried it they flew terribly poor. In your case the long shafts wouldn't need to be as stiff with fletching on fat end, but usually we do it the opposite.
Bjrogg
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After reading what Bj wrote, id give it a try on lower spined shafts. It may be a good trick to use to get more use out of otherwise useless materials for you.
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Tinker....Sorry you misunderstood but full length tapered shafts here are all smaller on the nock end than the tip end always.They fly clean and true that way.Yours will too.A nice set of self nocked shoot shafts with a self bow goes as well together as peaches and cream or bacon and eggs.
It may sound hard or confusing to make these shafts but it is'nt once you get into it.I've made dozens like I said.
If you were at my place I'd show you exactly how it's done.
I've looked on the build-a-long thread and didn't see any proper build-a-long for this.All my shoot shafts are already debarked/straightened/and seasoned.Possibly a U tube tutoral is out there for you.I really don't think you need one though.Just dive in and have at it.It's good with shoot shafts to cut more than what you need to always have seasoned ones ready to become arrows.
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Tinker I agree with everything Ed said. This making arrows can be as simple or complicated as you make it. It's not difficult to make a arrow. It gets a bit trickier to make one that's tuned to your bow. Some say it's harder than making a bow. There's also someplace in between that will give you something fun to shoot. Make one and see how it flies. I'd suggest shooting it before you fletch it and telling us how it acts. You can really learn a lot shooting a arrow without fletching but you might need help explaining what your seeing and why it's happening. For right now safety is probably most important. Make sure you wrap shaft any place it might split. If shaft has a stiff side put that side towards your bow. I wouldn't make a dozen yet. I'd go one step at a time and try to learn from each of them. There's tons of Red Osier Dogwood out there so if you run out I'm sure you'll be able to trade for more or try something else. You should be able to find a YouTube video showing how to make a arrow . Once upon a time I could have recommended one to you but I don't remember who they are now. Have fun and don't be afraid to give it a try. Somebody did this a long time ago with zero information. I'm thinking we can get you in the ballpark.
Bjrogg
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Thanks for all the help full information. I guess I'm to the point of ordering different points, a tapering tool and a scail that reads grains.
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It'll be worth it in the long run if you want to make your own arrow shafts.Don't forget the spiner!! Unless you have that already.I made my own for $20.00 from a build-a-long from a book called Bow Making Accessories.$30.00 for the book though,but did make a few other things from the book cheaply too.It's a good book!!