Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bushboy on July 03, 2018, 12:06:01 pm
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Angle grinder with a ceramic disc!just be careful it can remove alot of wood in a hurry and also finger tips!I have tried alot of discs,but this style doesn't clog!
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I have a 5 '' angle grinder with the rubber backing for sanding disk I use the 36 grit disc that work well and de clog them with the giant eraser type gizmo but I picked up this power file in the pic last year its basically a 1/2 '' x 18 '' mini belt sander its very controllable and perfect for handle/risers and ordered some 36 grit belts for it that last a long time you can take off micro to aggressive amounts of wood the angle grinder can be touchy some times for me & bite in if Im not careful.
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Agreed!I've been a pipe fitter for almost 30 years so a grinder is second nature by now!finer grit discs are also available.
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The mini belt grinder that was posted by Stick Bender is versatile tool. I first saw it as a tool used in knife making!
With angle grinder.. I would mess around trying to make some jigs. Doubt it would end up without red stains in my case.
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I don't know why anyone would want to use these tools to make a selfbow or any other traditional or primitive bow. I thought the whole point was to take thing's slow and enjoy ourselves and go back to the old way's of doing things. I personally avoid power tools because they are dangerous, have a limited life span, are expensive, lack character, and are not the way that my ancestor's built bows. I enjoy hearing the sound of a rasp grind out wood very quietly while taking in nature vs hearing a deafening screaming sound while trying to avoid cutting my fingers off.
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I don't know why anyone would want to use these tools to make a selfbow or any other traditional or primitive bow. I thought the whole point was to take thing's slow and enjoy ourselves and go back to the old way's of doing things. I personally avoid power tools because they are dangerous, have a limited life span, are expensive, lack character, and are not the way that my ancestor's built bows. I enjoy hearing the sound of a rasp grind out wood very quietly while taking in nature vs hearing a deafening screaming sound while trying to avoid cutting my fingers off.
Yup, that's how some people do it, but it's not mandatory :) :)
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I don't know why anyone would want to use these tools to make a selfbow or any other traditional or primitive bow. I thought the whole point was to take thing's slow and enjoy ourselves and go back to the old way's of doing things. I personally avoid power tools because they are dangerous, have a limited life span, are expensive, lack character, and are not the way that my ancestor's built bows. I enjoy hearing the sound of a rasp grind out wood very quietly while taking in nature vs hearing a deafening screaming sound while trying to avoid cutting my fingers off.
Yup, that's how some people do it, but it's not mandatory :) :)
Agree DC. I like to show that natural materials make a great bow and arrows. Tell you what, I made bows with all hand tools before I started using power tools. I think it takes just as much skill to use power tools successfully. It's just faster. And no, at almost 70, seeing how much time I can put into a bow is not on my list. I have no desire to have somebody write on my tombstone, "He managed to take longer than anybody in history to make a bow!"
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I started off with power tools and ran my bow making operation like a production line. It was insane. After a few years I switched almost entirely to hand tools for a number of reasons. I like the exercise and I really enjoy the entire process now. I figure using hand tools only adds about 3 hours to a bow. I feel entirely different about the bow once I am finished and they come out better for me. Another big reason is cost, I drag out my bows in the tillering process now not only for better quality but the process lasts longer and I don't burn through as many staves.
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I often wondered and asked myself why this site is called "Primitive Archer"... I would say it leans more towards Trad...With all the epoxy and plastic and synthetics it just seems kind of hypocritical to try and separate from Trad because no glass is allowed...I don't have any heartburn with anyone using whatever they want but the name "Primitive Archer" ? Just saying, because it isn't Primitive...
prim-i-tive def: of the earliest times; original, crude; simple , primary; basic--a primitive person or thing...
Don
My apology for being slightly off topic here...
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I do think that at least the Native Americans adopted new technology as it became available, such as steel points and hatchets, and firearms, etc. I have no problem with using tower tools for the tedious prep work such as roughing out, and shaping. As I may be about the oldest "newbie" around, my opinion may not sway anyone, but the end result is a primitive bow! Linen strings were in use in Europe, silk in Asia, for centuries before the white man got to the "new world"! The self bow as a finished item is classed as primitive, I believe! How it is made is a matter of personal preference!
Hawkdancer
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Lot of opinions on this I don't think any of them wrong. Personally I typically rough all my bows out with a hatchet and for the most part use hand tools all the way through. But I have no problem or shame using a belt sander or modern sandpaper. I like to make all different types from simple sticks with sinew strings to Modern styles with fast flight strings. I think this group of guys is the closest thing you're going to get to so-called primitive. In today's world it would be very hard to make one like they're made years ago. is working in a shop with electric lights crossing the line? Bottom line for me if you like to make and shoot wood bows you're okay in my book
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I often wondered and asked myself why this site is called "Primitive Archer"... I would say it leans more towards Trad...With all the epoxy and plastic and synthetics it just seems kind of hypocritical to try and separate from Trad because no glass is allowed...I don't have any heartburn with anyone using whatever they want but the name "Primitive Archer" ? Just saying, because it isn't Primitive...
prim-i-tive def: of the earliest times; original, crude; simple , primary; basic--a primitive person or thing...
Don
My apology for being slightly off topic here...
I agree. I don't think my bows are truly primitive, but as you listed, there are just too many definitions of the word primitive. Mine are not crude, but they are simple and basic.
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I often wondered and asked myself why this site is called "Primitive Archer"... I would say it leans more towards Trad...With all the epoxy and plastic and synthetics it just seems kind of hypocritical to try and separate from Trad because no glass is allowed...I don't have any heartburn with anyone using whatever they want but the name "Primitive Archer" ? Just saying, because it isn't Primitive...
I don't see any plastic... I do see modern glues and string. But as my brother once pointed out. If primitive man had epoxy adhesives he'd have used 'em.
Regarding power tools, they are only as good as the user and they teach you how to screw up real quick.
They do save wear and tear on the old joints, ironically sometimes we forget and have to re-learn that a hand tool is often quicker and easier.
Change the blade on the bandsaw or just use the hand tool? Oooh that was easy and quick!
Del
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Wow this is one of the more civil threads on this topic ,seems like every time this subject comes up around here there is a fire storm ,but after all where using our computers to talk about primitive bows...lol I agree with every thing said , I just look at what ever job needs to be done and use what ever tool works best ,with time at a premium for me I look to use power tools when I can ,but at times I enjoy the quiet serenity of using a rasp or other hand tools , the end result is usually the same it's just up to what the builder enjoys !
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Another point. When I use hand tools, I still work fast. I wear myself out drawknifing the sapwood off Osage. Then I slow down to the speed limit to chase a ring. After reducing the belly to near dimensions, I rasp feverishly to bring the edges down to my marks, then rasp the center of the belly down to match the edges as fast as I can. Then slow down again to tiller. But I never do three scraps and test. I watch the beginners at the Tn. Classic. Some of them, if they had been ice age hunters, would have seen glaciers shapinging the land faster than they shaped a bow;-) (S)
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Bushy, I have heard of several guys using that chainsaw styled disc on their angle grinders to take sapwood off fast. Haven't tried it or seen it done, but I can only imagine its very efficient.
The way we build automobiles is considerably different than the way Henry started doing it. Yet they are still called automobiles to this day, even though robots do huge portions of the work.
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Depends on what ya want out of the experience. Some of us want to have an experience of "living history", and just maybe an insight into some of the "why's". Personally I dont care how many I've made or how fast. The experience of the making and using is the reward for me. Sort of going back to basics if you will. Where the rub comes in is trying to explain why I would use a raw-hide sting when there is fast-flight etc. etc. The most frustrating thing for me is that the Name doesn't reflect the actuality. I have no desire to make "cookie cutter" bows that are bigger, better, faster and shinier at the expense of any chance at a learning experience and the occasional "back in time" rove through the woods. It really is sad that there is no room for primitive in primitive archer.
Mr. Burchett, I raise a we dram to you sir.
Rich Rousseau
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To be called totally primitive can be argued and does even before the tree is put down.Was a chain saw used to cut the tree instead of a stone axe?
The thing the old bandsaw did for me opposed to the first year with just a hatchet,draw knife,and pocket knife making 18 bows was to make more bows of different styles faster learning more.As everyone knows the bow is made in the tillering.
The same is with making arrows,string,and quiver for those bows.
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I find the stationary tools like the oscillating drum & belt sander ,band saw the most controllable & fastest like Ed said the true work is in the tiller of any bow ,there is a guy here can't remember who but does all the tiller work on the belt sander , even if I cut a tree with a stone axe , I don't know how I could get it home with out a truck , I think PatB said it best that where to modernized to make truly primitive bows in previous posts ! I don't judge any body's way of making a bow it's the end result that counts ! Also Bushy they have the chair making discs for the angle grinders for ruffing out chair seats that look pretty controllable from watching guys use them !
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I build wood bows because I want to. At first it was all hand tools. When I could afford it I got a bandsaw, I use it for eliminating hard sweaty work of doing it by hand. After that I use a draw knife to remove bark and sapwood(when needed). Once I'm near floor tiller stage it is only a rasp and a scraper. I also use a table top belt sander sometimes for shaping tips for overlays. I've never been comfortable enough to use power tools for other things.
The reason we call this primitive archery is because Primitive Archer Magazine jumped in to promote the passing on of primitive technology as we know it and because we use their forum to pass it on. It would be impossible for us to build primitive bows because we don't have a primitive mindset and haven't for thousands of years. I build wood bows and shoot mostly wood bows because I choose to and I choose to build them the way I do. How you do it is up to you but we all have a choice.
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Well put, Bushboy! My quest is to get the first bow shooting, hopefully well, and then do a better job on each succeeding next bow!
Hawkdancer
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For me, I have a limited amount of free time. If a sander or bandsaw allows more efficient use of my free time, I’m all about it. That said, the experience of felling a small diameter tree with a hatchet or hand saw, roughing out with hatchet, and finishing with a rasp and blade to tiller gives me more of a feeling of accomplishment, and my best bows were made this way. There are a ton of styles of bows that I want to try my hand at that I’ve seen on here that may not be exactly primitive. I believe the all wood or natural composite laminates bound with hide glue or an equivalent protein rendered glue fit the literal definition of primitive bow. The argument that if our ancestors had access to modern glue they would have used it is moot; as I see it they would have used all modern materials including the F word if it were available to them. I’m pretty sure that most all modern glue is in fact plastic. And in the F word it is the plastic epoxy resin that allows a material made of glass ( glass is primitive) to work. That same plastic epoxy resin is ok for cloth or wood laminates. Personally, I think that the all natural bulk material with whatever binder for laminates is a good compromise without splitting too fine of a hair and being devisive.
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Interesting and nice to see all of the responses that have been posted since I made mines. I apologize if I came off as rude as that was not the intention. I just found it interesting especially after reading most of The Bowyer's Bible and one of the author's makes an excuse for using a bandsaw saying that you have to draw the line somewhere's and I thought his statement was pretty funny.
My own way of building primitive bow's might be seen as insane or very dogmatic by some people but I enjoy it as it forces me to think and work in a way that makes bow making feel more authentic, slow, and overall more rewarding for me. I use no electricity or anything that has a motor so no heatgun's, no chainsaw's, no band saw's and so on. I use tool's that have been used for thousand's of years like rasps, axes, hatchets, knives, scrapers, and stick to using natural glues like hide glue and pine pitch, and I use all natural finishes as well. I do the same with my arrow's as well.
While an argument can be made that the Indigenous people of America would of built bow's using whatever they had available, the whole point of building bow's in a traditional or primitive fashion is to take you back into time and do thing's as they were done for thousand's of years. So I have no doubt's that primitive people would of used band saw's, electric saw's, heat gun's, and so on, but that's not the way that they did it for thousand's of years so I don't do it that way.
If I had to build bow's using all modern electric power tool's it would kill the enjoyment of it for me and I'd just quit and stick to F word bow's.
Again, what's primitive and what's not primitive will change from the user. Same people will argue that a tiller tree is not primitive but I see no reason why this is the case considering that pulley's have been around for thousand's of years and a pulley can easily be made out of stone, wood, or metal. Bow's could of also of been tillered to a specific weight by hanging a stone with a specific weight from the string on a tillering tree.
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I don't do primitive maybe because of my definition of primitive. To me primitive ends about the time man learned how to smelt metals. Everyone probably has a different time in mind but one thing is sure, no matter whether they say it or not, Gilligans Island wasn't primitive ;)
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I think anyone should use the tools they are comfortable with and confident with. I personally use all hand tools right now. It is what i learned on and am comfortable with. I also like the fact i can throw my stuff in a car and work on my bows anywhere without the need for power outlets. If my arthritis and health keeps going in the direction it is i might need to incorporate some power tools in there to keep me building (which i hope i never have to stop).
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there is a guy here can't remember who but does all the tiller work on the belt sander
That could be me. Being in industrial assembly situations most of my adult life taught me to work smarter not harder. Belt sander for tillering seemed totally logical. Just like anything else you have to know how to use the tools you have chosen to use.
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CrescentWalk,
I think you nailed it for "me", all natural materials and stone or metal hand tools...I think that would fall under the primitive bow and arrow definition with no problem...My earlier post was meant to be taken permissive to post any technique or material except FG per the rules of PA because really, this is a "Trad site"....As reading the above posts you can't argue that...My apology to bushboy for getting slightly off topic, but the first two words in the title sucked me in...I think Paul said it best, that this site and folks are as close as your going to get to Primitive bows and arrows...I am a subscriber and a supporter of PA...My goal is not to advance in modern technology with bows but to regress back in time to study, dig and scratch out the primitive path...That's the reason I left wheelie bows and building glass bows...
Don