Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: FilipT on March 24, 2018, 08:08:04 am
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I have about 4 - 5" ash sapling that I debarked just now and violated rings at some places. Now why did that happen, because I never violate rings? It is because that sapling has over 30 rings! I couldn't believe that each ring is about 1 mm thick (or even less) and it was impossible not to violate them when I debarked the sapling.
Question is am I dealing with already a failed bow or not? It is impossible to chase the ring because of sheer number of rings and how thin they are.
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Unless you are really short on bow wood i would say chunk it and find another stave. Ash is one of those woods that usually has a high percentage of early growth meaning it’s pretty crappy bow wood to begin with.
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Ash is one of those woods that usually has a high percentage of early growth meaning it’s pretty crappy bow wood to begin with.
Really? I never heard that before. Btw, I tried another one and the same thing happened. It seems I wouldn't be able to use ANY ash I collected last year. And I didn't get anything else because of bad weather whole autumn.
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Filip, adding a simple backing can help keep splinters down due to the violations. Silk(neck tie from thrift shop), linen(shirt, blouse also from thrift shop) and brown butcher or grocery bag paper are good examples of simple backings. Ash has been used for bows for many years so it must be OK. I've only used it a few times over the years. Don't give up before you try a simple backing.
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I've never worked ash yet but I bebarked a bunch here recently so I will be and some I did the same thing you did. I have worked hickory a lot though with this same issue and as long as it's not a gouge I would sand it real good so the area blends in as good as you can get it and you should be fine. part of building bows is seeing what you can get away with. go for it and let me know how it turns out.
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For two hours after I posted this thread I have been working on the bow and here is what I did and what I decided.
I drew the layout and removed the wood from the sides and got up the lines. Tomorrow I will mark initial rough estimate thickness and handle depth and will remove the wood from belly. After I clear everything I will carefully work on the back. The plan is to what @timmyd did, or even get to the one ring if I can. So bunch of sanding and scraping and no draw knife!
When I looked again at the back, I think the back is not really too much violated but one bump concerns me a bit. This is actually a knot that has two rings violated, again because they were so thin. I will carefully sand and scrape that knot and blend it to the rest of the back of bow. After that bow will go for a bit final drying as it is still wet a bit and will hopefully be ready for tiller.
Of course I will make a thread with finished bow if it survives!
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Back it with silk, linen or burlap as Pat said.
Info my site.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com
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Can you post a picture of the violations? Personally I'd say you might be able to get away with light violations if you keep the bow's weight down. I'm a believer in ash and I hope that my
religious devotion to it is going to pay off - I've been debarking and roughing out some 30+ ash staves this whole autumn and winter. It would be outrageous if it really is a crappy wood. )-w(
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I wouldn't call Ash crappy but it's not the best. It will chysal if it's strained too much.
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Of course it is not the crappy wood, au contraire. I will put tomorrow picture of cross section of one of the other saplings as I already shaped this one into rough dimensions.
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"Ash is one of those woods that usually has a high percentage of early growth meaning it’s pretty crappy bow wood to begin with." I cannot agree with this, but working with ANY wood means choosing design to suit the wood, and ash, like maple, elm, hazel, etc. will do best with a wide, flat limb. I have made many bows with small nicks or shaves on the back, but others failed. too.
So many small, close growth rings does sound unusual for ash. Young ash usually has thick, solid summer growth, even if it has a lot of early growth, too. So, if all the rings are thin, both early and late, that only means you make the bow LONGER, wider, or lower draw weight than you would otherwise.
I agree, you either take it down one ring using only a scraper, or back it like Jawge and Pat said.
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Please do show us the violations. Their closeness to the edge can be a factor.
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Just to clarify, I am building around 50-55# flatbow so not a warbow, even though ash makes superb warbows.
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Here is picture of rings on other piece of ash, from the same tree. Arrow points to the direction where I put back of the bow.
(https://s7.postimg.org/f5ttd1mkb/IMG_20180325_111507.jpg)
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I would decrown the whole back. probably safest option .
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Wow, never done that before. What could I gain from that move? Btw, my bow is almost completely shaped, I will probably tomorrow clean the back from violations.
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FilipT is in Croatia and from what I've read on here I get the impression that European Ash is much better than North American Ash.
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FilipT is in Croatia and from what I've read on here I get the impression that European Ash is much better than North American Ash.
Guess that explains why the wood doesn't look like any ash I have seen.
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Yes, correctly, this is an European ash. It has mostly smooth bark but when it grows really old it becomes more rough. Also it is full of white spots on the bark.
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Hi Filip, to de-crown means that you scrape down the back - the crown- and make it more rectangular in cross section, like a board. It should be done nice and even on the whole bow, not only in one spot. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=49474.15
you can do this if you have shaped the profile of the bow but maybe not if you have stated to tiller it.
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To me, decrowning is pretty high level stuff, especially on a sapling which may have lots of small knots and the like included.
We have several ash varieties in North America. As far as properties of the wood go, European ash is very similar to American white ash, but the bark of young trees is smoother. Older trees are hard to distinguish.
The numbers (S.G., MOE, MOR, and longitudinal crushing stregth) from the old CWAR website were essentially identical, except E. Ash had a higher measured janka side hardness.
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Springbuck, maybe lower level than chasing paper thin rings? One of the first bows I ever made I de-crowned and it still shoots :D
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Update: bow almost completely roughed out and left on the attic for 2 weeks so that majority of moisture goes away. It will be ready for tillering in middle April.
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Maybe! Maybe I'm just not that good at it.
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Them rings don't look that thin to me, you should be able to chase that easy enough.Good luck, look forward to seeing it up and shooting.
Pappy
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No, they are really thin. Look at the area where the point of arrow is. Btw, this sapling on picture is not the one I made the bow of.
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Simply put...when a ring is violated, you take your chances.
Jawge
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I removed the bow from attic and reduced wood so it is pretty much ready for tillering. But I will leave it indoors for about one week with each day weighing it so I could be pretty sure I am dealing with dry wood. European ash really likes moisture so one should really be careful with it.
Now, the violations are still concerning me. Here are pictures. If experienced forum members still recommend backing, I will do that. Waiting for a green light.
Notice the white spots where I cut into another layer of growth rings.
(https://s17.postimg.org/tbtgezbdr/image.jpg)
(https://s17.postimg.org/8ex8ac0i7/image.jpg)
Arguably the worst violation. See how the knot has several rings cut through.
(https://s17.postimg.org/r793dwp6n/image.jpg)
Handle area shows how thin growth rings are.
(https://s17.postimg.org/6acv99m0v/image.jpg)
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Can you take it down another ring. If not, a simple backing like brown bag paper, silk, linen or others will help.
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Back it with sinew.
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Impossible to take down another ring. Believe me I tried. One gentle push and immediately it bites into another ring down. Sinew is not easily obtained, no butcher has them.
Pat B, can really brown paper hold the back? Wow. I can buy that, but what glue should I use for gluing it?