Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Muzzleloaders => Topic started by: Tracker0721 on March 01, 2018, 06:16:40 pm
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So if I’m just wanting to try my hand at putting together a ML is that kit at cabelas for a Hawkins any good? I don’t have a huge budget, just wanting to get my toes wet.
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If it is, im buying one too.
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There's nothing wrong with the Traditions kits.
I've built the blunderbuss and an old CVA (same thing) .54 cal flintlock.
They're addictive, and hard to screw up.
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The same question has been asked on one of the longrifle sites. These kits are actually a pretty good place to start, the barrels are accurate, the percussion locks are OK, flintlocks not so good. You can slap it together and shoot it or you can study how a Hawken is supposed to look, remove some wood and have a really nice looking rifle.
My answers on the other site was first; don't use a dremel tool on your build, it can get away from you in a heartbeat and really mess things up.
Next; these kits come with a lot of extra wood particularly around the lock. Big lock panels look awful to anyone who has seen the way they are supposed to look. The forend in these kits is what we call "slabsided" (flat) and doesn't look anything like an original which has a more oval shape.
Here is an example of a big, ugly, lock panel;
(https://i.imgur.com/bN0Ke4i.jpg)
An original Samuel Hawkens lock panels look like this, a very distinctive shaped tail and nose, graceful;
(https://i.imgur.com/EbX1LTp.jpg)
TCs lock panels are smaller but can still be reduced to a more pleasing shape like I did on this Renegade;
(https://i.imgur.com/ArUafkT.jpg)
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Be careful when you pick out your kit. Try to get a look at the wood in the wrist. In the photos above you will see the straight grain cutting across the wrist....weak as water. Try to find one where the grain follows the curve of the wrist. Though you probably won't find any. If you are stuck with a stock stock, we can walk you through drilling through the tang inlet down through the wrist, and bedding some steel through the wrist to strengthen it up.
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Well, if a good stock with a curved wrist isnt to be found, i wouldnt object to searching the woods looking for a tree that grew like that. What trees make acceptable stocks?
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I have never seen one of these kits break in the wrist, probably because they are pretty beefy in that area with extra wood.
In a perfect world the grain should run through the wrist like this cherry stock blank I am cutting out. I ruined this blank with a errant bandsaw cut when I was shaping it for a southern rifle.
(https://i.imgur.com/LnP3SHH.jpg)
You will not find this grain flow in any production guns or in most of the stock blanks you look at.
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Good gunstocks are from walnut, cherry, several hard maples,probably, the other hard shell nut trees, and fruit trees. You could also try the several stock makers and places like Track of the Wolf, and the Gunworks. Good luck with your project.
Hawkdancer
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I’m thinking the mountain rifle from traditions will be a good one. 32” barrel rather than 28”. I hate that I can buy a used Hawkins for $200 or new for 450 but the kits are 380-425. All the same company too. I may just buy the used Hawkins, buy a slab and cut my own stock, and refinish the metal. Some of the used ones run for around 100 even on armslist!
I’ve done a good bit of gunsmithing and stock work. Just never dipped into muzzleloaders and I feel that’s a gap I wanna look into. Made selfbows, glass bows, compounds interested me for a week or 2, built and fixed a few rifles and shotguns so maybe muzzleloaders will be good for me! Just the cost of the parts that gets me, a custom Rem 700 would be about the same as a kit gun from a majority of the sites!
Thanks for the tips guys! I love following your builds and learning from you!
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Downside of buying a used muzzleloader for cheap is that you often don't know if you are buying a pig in a poke. Not many places will let you pull the breech plug for a lookie-loo down the pipe. Sometimes the rot has gotten deep into the threads of the breechplug on the inexpensive production guns because they were not well mated together in the first place.
At the very least, demand to run a lubed patched proper sized jag down the barrel on the end of a nylon or brass cleaning rod. Does it come out clean? Rusty? Toss that first patch and run another lubed patch down and pay attention to spots were it seems to not slide smoothly. Any rough stuff can be serious corrosion/rust. Any spot where it loses grip on the patched jag suddenly can be a bulged barrel that is one shot away from being a hand-held grenade in front of your delicate face. The only one you should buy is the one where the patched jag is gripped lightly and the jag runs smoothly to the bottom and back up with consistent grip all the way.
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Thank you for that advice! I was wondering how you check a muzzleloader barrel but that makes sense if the breech plug can come off. The traditions Hawkins I was looking at was from another guy on a hunting site who’s used it for elk hunting but upgraded to a custom. I’m sure he’d let me check it out first, seemed like a nice guy. Do the breech plugs come off easy?
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Well no, depending on the type of rifle they go from fairly easy to impossible. I suspect the Traditions breechplug will fall into the impossible category.
I don't recommend anyone pulling a breechplug to check for fowling in the threads as corrosion in this area is almost never found, even on antique firearms, the threads seal themselves. A properly breeched gun will have the breechplug tightly fitted to the breech face inside the barrel and nothing can get by.
My advice is to drop a bore light into the barrel and take a look, you can see if the bore is shiny or not. Most folk use a cheap fishing bobber light as a bore light, a couple of bucks at Walmart.
On roached out barrels they will be corroded from the breech to the bore and will look like a sewer pipe inside. Like this;
(https://i.imgur.com/OI2AyLL.jpg)
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I’ll stick to the light and swab. Seems easier. I wonder why the kits got so expensive, I was reading an early 2000s post and they were talking about a high end kit being 500-700 bucks.
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Everything Eric says is 100% correct.
I'm new to it, only been into blackpowder a little over a year but definitely don't use a dremmel. I made that mistake with the blunderbuss!
The thing is though, especially if 100% historical accuracy isn't important, you can have a lot of fun with them. I'm doing a waxed canvas wrap around the wrist of the blunderbuss and got a nice Trigger guard from Jim Kibler to replace the factory brass guard. I'm going to use a piece of metal around the lock to cover up some mistakes in the wood I made and I'm replacing the brass buttplate with a custom leather one.
When it's all said and done it will look closer to a pirate gun (minus having a caplock) but it will be unique.
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That’ll look pretty cool! I just found a TC Hawkin kit for $200 so hopefully I’ll have that arriving in a week if it turns out to be a complete kit! I like carving, engraving and stock work so maybe muzzleloaders will be my new hobby.
I learned the hard way about putting my chisels down and grabbing the Dremel. Inletting a detachable box mag bottom metal on a savage stock I made and the Dremel caught the edge and took a big chunk out. Ended up covering it with an ebony border and some acra-glass dyed black to match the 2.
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Well no, depending on the type of rifle they go from fairly easy to impossible. I suspect the Traditions breechplug will fall into the impossible category.
I don't recommend anyone pulling a breechplug to check for fowling in the threads as corrosion in this area is almost never found, even on antique firearms, the threads seal themselves. A properly breeched gun will have the breechplug tightly fitted to the breech face inside the barrel and nothing can get by.
My advice is to drop a bore light into the barrel and take a look, you can see if the bore is shiny or not. Most folk use a cheap fishing bobber light as a bore light, a couple of bucks at Walmart.
On roached out barrels they will be corroded from the breech to the bore and will look like a sewer pipe inside. Like this;
(https://i.imgur.com/OI2AyLL.jpg)
I have seen two guns with failing breechs, one was so bad it leaked WD-40!
Good luck with the TC Hawken, sounds like a deal impossible to pass up.
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I did an older TC kit about 6 months ago;
(https://i.imgur.com/DojmnRZ.jpg)
I changed things up a bit, took a lot of wood off and reshaped the lock panels;
(https://i.imgur.com/ft1UrQV.jpg)
I added a toe plate and completely reshaped the cheek piece to look like a real hawken;
(https://i.imgur.com/AhdnZYs.jpg)
Overall I thought the kit wasn't that easy to put together, stuff didn't fit very well. Could be my gun building experience was more advanced than the average kit builder and I needed to have a better metal to wood fit to be satisfied.
Being an old kit that sat in a basement for 30+ years I was surprised to find the barrel in pristine condition. Not so with the lock, it wouldn't set off. Somehow the sear spring plunger had gotten moisture in it and completely rusted out the plunger and spring as well as welding them into the housing. Luckily a friend with a milling machine was able to mill the rusted mass out leaving a perfectly cut hole the right size. It took some looking to find a spring and plunger but I was able to get everything back together and functioning perfectly.
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Another thing about a TC kit, back at the hook breech they leave lot of wood sticking up above the breech. I don't have a before picture but here is an after picture, the wood should slope down to a barrel flat, the side panel should slope up to meet this wood, same on the lock side.
(https://i.imgur.com/0YcC50S.jpg)
If you have any questions on how things should be shaped ask me and I will take a picture.