Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Morgan on February 25, 2018, 05:41:42 pm
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I’ve not made a bow with a cut in shelf before and the prospect is kind of daunting to me. I got the bark shucked off of my next victim and I think I will make a cut in shelf on it. I would love to know how you guys that do this lay out your handle section. Most of my bows are 1.5-1.75” limb width with a 4” handle and 2” of fades. Would I just increase my fade length and cut the shelf in there? Also, how long to make the window. Anything else y’all can think to add that I need to know would be great. Pics would be awesome too.
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I use to not like a cut in shelf. I would build a shelf up with leather. I tried a cut in shelf once and really liked. I use a hacksaw to rough cut it and then finish it up with rasps and files. The key to making it look good is having smooth rounded transitions. I don't like square blocky shelves or handles.
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I made cut in shelves on the first two or three bows I made more than 20 years ago, because I thought they should be like store-bought bows. I don't want any kind of a shelf. The arrow flies fine when I use the first joint of my index finger for a rest. I'm getting a little snooty about not wanting to cut a window in a handle. :D
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Be careful if you cut the shelf, it's real easy to over do it. I prefer to use files and a farriers rasp, and take my time. Too much work up to that point to screw up a perfectly good stave.
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When I do a cut in shelf I just leave the handle a bit deeper and a bit wider by about 1/4” where I intend to put the shelf. That extra width allows the arrow to still be held but not have to cut too deep into the handle. Anymore I “cut” in the shelf with a round rasp. Then make the shelf to fade transition with a ferrier rasp. Te round rasp lets me get deep enough to hold the arrow and I don’t have that groove or edge to remove as it’s already done.
Kyle
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I cut my shelfs to center of the bow but not past center. I come up 1-1/4" from center .i also have a 10 inch handle. I use my band saw to cut the shelf. I like to have at least 1-1/2" thick handle section. I don't cut the shelf till the bow is tillered. And yes Jim I know it's not primitive but they shoot better!
Had to many pros tell me so to believe differently. Arvin
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There is no good reason for a cut in shelf, I don't like them. No primitive bow had a cut in shelf.
make your handle narrow (there are a way more advantages) and glue on a little piece of shaped leather if you need an arrow rest.
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Simon bring your selfbow to the world IBO shoot in Va. next summer and see what happens. Arvin
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At what draw weight would a cut in shelf become dodgy? I've heard of bows breaking at the shelf area. I do like a shelf and figure if I retain the same width next to the shelf as the handle would've been without one, then it shouldn't be any weaker than what the handle would've been in the first place. I could be wrong, I am only a novice.
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When I built and posted my first few bows back in '99 - early 2000, I had made locator grips with palm swells and cut in shelf. I took a Lot of heat for doing that from the die hard traditional / primitive bowyers. I usually had a fairly beefy handle section and only cut deep enough to support the diameter of the arrow.
I see a lot of bows now with the same grip I made long ago, and a cut in shelf in over 70 bows hasn't caused a failure as yet.
The beauty of making a bow is freedom of choice in design - length, width, draw weight, finish, string type, recurve, flatbow, ELB, and on and on...........
If you want to cut in a shelf - why not? If it doesn't work for you, there are plenty of other options. It's Your Bow.
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Simon bring your selfbow to the world IBO shoot in Va. next summer and see what happens. Arvin
Irrelevant to the subject.
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I'm not "Joe" primitive. I simply love wooden bows, just that easy to understand. I suggest to make your fades no less than 2" long, that gives you ample room and plenty of security when you cut you shelf in.
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I don't like them for myself but have made a few on request. I found that for a cut-in shelf the total handle/grip area had to be lengthened by some 2" or more as opposed to how I usually make my handles. That means that either you have to lengthen the bow or shorten the working limb length
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I would guess about 60% of my bows have a cut in shelf, as Mark says you have to lengthen the handle and fade area so sacrifice some working limb or are forced to tone down an otherwise radical profile. I have had a few failures over the years from cutting in shelves where the bow split from the fade right to the center point of the cut in. Very few percentage wise but it has happened.
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Here's another can of worms: I think it's counter productive to carve a recurve-type handle on a "primitive" long bow. It's harder to shoot and the only tip of the hat to "primitive" is that it's made of wood. Ben Pearson mass marketed factory made bows like that. >:D
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Why would it be harder to shoot?
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At what draw weight would a cut in shelf become dodgy? I've heard of bows breaking at the shelf area. I do like a shelf and figure if I retain the same width next to the shelf as the handle would've been without one, then it shouldn't be any weaker than what the handle would've been in the first place. I could be wrong, I am only a novice.
Bow wood is 8 times stronger in thickness compared to width. According th Bowyers Bible I think that's right. I cut hundreds just like I explained above. Arvin
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This is how I've been making cut in shelves lately. I think they look and feel great on a selfbow.
(https://i.imgur.com/4TMLYbAh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fzNp56ph.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Lrh5nIsh.jpg)
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I wonder what Ben Pearson new about bow building and how many he sold. God bless his soul. Arvin
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This is how I've been making cut in shelves lately. I think they look and feel great on a selfbow.
(https://i.imgur.com/4TMLYbAh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fzNp56ph.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Lrh5nIsh.jpg)
Yep that's a nice one not like the Indians did it though. Arvin
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Love that grip Clint. Too bad its not primitive like a metal take down sleeve set is.
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I cut my shelfs to center of the bow but not past center. I come up 1-1/4" from center .i also have a 10 inch handle. I use my band saw to cut the shelf. I like to have at least 1-1/2" thick handle section. I don't cut the shelf till the bow is tillered. And yes Jim I know it's not primitive but they shoot better!
That's my process. Except not so deep that it's center shot. Maybe bit more than 1/4" deep. Be sure to radius shelf so arrow is resting on minimum bit of wood.
Osage Outlaw makes good lookin' comfy handles.
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Yep that's a nice one not like the Indians did it though. Arvin
Most of my bows are not native inspired. They are just wood bows made however I feel like making them :)
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I do think most selfbow cut shelves create interference because the window is too restricted.
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Pat they do require a bit longer handle . Mine are 9-10" depending on the stave. I like 1" of limb for every inch of draw. So if the stave is a bit short of my desired length I sometimes shorten my handle a inch. Most all my bows are 67-69" long. Heck some even have recurve grips . Arvin
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I do think most selfbow cut shelves create interference because the window is too restricted.
Pat, IMO there is no more interference than making a 1" wide handle and adding leather or cork to make the exact same shape in the exact same window in the exact same space.
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In my world the only advantage a cut in shelf would give me is that the arrow shaft can rest on the bow in more positions than without a shelf while hunting in a stand for instance.There are cute ways with a small rubber band to hold that shaft there on the shelf.
In the end if the arrow flys clean and true for the shooter.That's all that counts.I personally want 0 restrictions or bumps etc. in the way of my shaft in the beginning of the release.
I feel the same way about my constructions on bows.It's personal thing with handles.My no shelf bulbous handles feel very comfortable to me too.
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I do think most selfbow cut shelves create interference because the window is too restricted.
Pat, IMO there is no more interference than making a 1" wide handle and adding leather or cork to make the exact same shape in the exact same window in the exact same space.
Yes, that could be done better too. ;) I think in both cases the execution could be a bit more open.
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I make a lot of my fades near 3" now that bow length isn't so scary to me anymore. Even when I don't cut a shelf in.
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That's the key. Many do short fades and notch the shelf in or you'll also see super long fades that take about 3 inches of limb out of action and don't use that section to full advantage for a window without a ceiling on it.
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FG shooters I shoot with have the concern about the reference point on the handle can change too much to suit them they think.I and others who shoot off their knuckle don't seem to have that problem.
As long as the string nock and dot on the handle are in line things shoot consistent.
(https://i.imgur.com/w82ua5g.jpg)
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I wonder what Ben Pearson new about bow building and how many he sold. God bless his soul. Arvin
Thank you for SO MASTERFULLY MAKING MY POINT. Pearson bows were not primitive archery. If you want to make a bow that is the fastest, or most stable or easiest to shoot, you don't care a fig about primitive bows. You might just as well buy a carbon fiber example.
Bows that imitate space age designs are not primitive.
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Love that grip Clint. Too bad its not primitive like a metal take down sleeve set is.
A round take-down sleeve is primitive in that its section is round and straight, like an ELB. Pistol grip handles came in with 1950s recurves. A long bow or AFB needs to be shot from the heel of the hand, not the web of the thumb. The fact that a bow can be demounted from the handle does not make the handle shape modern. And the only reason I make take-downs is that I don't have any good wood long enough to make a one-piece bow. If I did, I'd still make the handle long and straight.
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I wonder what Ben Pearson new about bow building and how many he sold. God bless his soul. Arvin
Thank you for SO MASTERFULLY MAKING MY POINT. Pearson bows were not primitive archery. If you want to make a bow that is the fastest, or most stable or easiest to shoot, you don't care a fig about primitive bows. You might just as well buy a carbon fiber example.
Bows that imitate space age designs are not primitive.
I believe everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of what makes a bow primitive. Your view is exactly that, it's yours. That doesn't mean everyone else has to have the same opinion on what makes a bow primitive.
If you want to make a bow that is the fastest, or most stable or easiest to shoot, you don't care a fig about primitive bows. You might just as well buy a carbon fiber example.
This statement has me dumbfounded. So if I try to build a fast, stable bow for hunting season that means I don't care a fig newton about primitive bows? Really? If I'm trying to kill an animal with a selfbow I want it to be the best possible bow that I'm capable of making. So in your opinion everyone should be building slow, hand shocky bows that are hard to shoot so they can say they are primitive?
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Modern technology has given us the knowledge to advance old technology to new levels. I'm all for that.
I think it's great that we've learned how to re-visit things that were maybe being close to obsolete and getting a bit more out of them.
If you can make an advanced space age design out of a piece of wood, more power to you.
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A round take-down sleeve is primitive in that its section is round and straight, like an ELB.
Now you're just modifying the rules to suit your opinion. ;D ;D ;D
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I have always liked all wood bows and natural materials but could care squat if it is primitive or not. I just like all wood.
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I like cut in windows on some of my bows. I like locator grips a lot, and even w/o a cut in shelf, I often have a bevelled leather tab, hemp binding, or whatever for a partial arrow rest.
The only real issue is that you have to respect the wood for what it is. I have seen so many guys over the years try to make essentially all- wood copies of FG bows, and it just doesn't work well that way. Like Dean Torges said, the ability to, say, slightly crown out your fadeouts on the belly allows you to make that transition better and more gently than a FG bowyer ever could. BUT. You often also NEED all the limb length you can get on a wood bow, and a massive riser with a huge cut out shelf costs you that.
DOING it is fairly easy. Make sure you have that little extra thickness in the handle, and that the bow has all the mass in both thickness and width it needs right at the fades. I put the grip where I always put it; the base of my thumb in the physical middle of the bow, mark below my pinky, and three fingers above my index finger. Fades extend maybe 2" above and below that, crowd the transitions a little, and the whole thing can be about 10-11" long. Usually I make these bows with more symmetrical limb length.
Then just don't get too aggressive about how tall or deep the cutout is. I cut well in, but don't see the need to force the bow to be centershot.
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:NN -C- -C- -C- -C- (W (W (-S (-S ;D
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(-P play nice everyone . Pappy
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But Pappy you know I am a Texan. Oookkkk. Arvin
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One thing I was totally unaware of. We have some mind readers on here who can tell me what my opinion is when I have not stated it.
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The term is inferring, not mind reading. ;)
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One thing I was totally unaware of. We have some mind readers on here who can tell me what my opinion is when I have not stated it.
You did see the smiles didn't you/ Sorry if I offended.
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well I really dont have anything to say that has not been said,,,I dont put a shelf on my bows just because I dont want too,, I just like it better that way,, I prefer the look of it too,, )P(
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One thing I was totally unaware of. We have some mind readers on here who can tell me what my opinion is when I have not stated it.
You did see the smiles didn't you/ Sorry if I offended.
Missed them. And they were staring my right in the face. ::) Still too sensitive here. At my age, even an intentional affront shouldn't get my back up. You've nothing to be sorry about. Carry on.
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In all seriousness I respect the bowyer ability of those that have been on this thread. Every one of them. Some are more Traditional primitive and some just like wood bows. I think there is a place for both. When it comes to the limbs all the same principles apply . How much energy can we get out of them. There is common ground every where if we was to look. Arvin
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Wow! I really didn’t mean to bring up such a sensitive subject. Two reasons I want to make a cut in shelf bow. 1. I haven’t done it and want to. Most all of my bows look the same, and I shoot them plenty accurate, but I want to try something new. 2. I like to bowfish. I’d like to make a bow to bowfish with from ipe. I like using modern fg bowfishing arrows. A stiff fiberglass arrow shot off my bows require too much compensation for my liking.
Right, wrong, or indifferent, it’s something I’d like to get under my belt.
Thank you all for your replies, there’s been a lot of helpful info that I was wondering about.
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This topic has had some lively and spirited debate - the bottom line is that nobody is right..........or wrong.
I can see the point that a cut in shelf is no doubt Not "Primitive" if we compare the bows made by several of us, and this forum is "Primitive Archer."
That leaves us to decide where to draw a line that can't ever be defined clearly and will open a new debate which has been beaten to dust over and over again.
If we still wore loin cloths and swung clubs we wouldn't consider a shelf, but having computers in our pockets and band saws has elevated us to a slightly higher level...... maybe?
Good luck on your bow fishing rig Morgan - love to see the set up when you get it done!
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Are any of the "primitive" bowyers that feel so strongly about a cut in shelf not being "primitive" using a belt sander, bandsaw, compressor, shellac, drilling machine, heat gun, electric stove or any other form of "modern" appliance in their craft?
Would a cut in shelf be considered slightly more primitive if one only used hand tools?
Would a bow without a shelf be considered to be any less primitive if it was constructed using "modern" appliances?
Is 320 grit sandpaper primitive?
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This debate has come up every once in awhile here on PA so it's nothing new
Are any of the "primitive" bowyers that feel so strongly about a cut in shelf not being "primitive" using a belt sander, bandsaw, compressor, shellac, drilling machine, heat gun, electric stove or any other form of "modern" appliance in their craft?
Would a cut in shelf be considered slightly more primitive if one only used hand tools?
Would a bow without a shelf be considered to be any less primitive if it was constructed using "modern" appliances?
Is 320 grit sandpaper primitive?
All of these points have also been put across during these debates so they are nothing new either
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It's all just personal preference, before the magazine changed it under the name it said something like keeping classical archery alive, not primitive, now it says classical weaponry
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I feel bad for the guy who started this thread. He asked a simple question and gets preached to. There isn't a primitive builder on this site. Just a bunch of wood bow lovers with varying degrees of tool usage.
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I feel bad for the guy who started this thread. He asked a simple question and gets preached to. There isn't a primitive builder on this site. Just a bunch of wood bow lovers with varying degrees of tool usage.
+100
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I feel bad for the guy who started this thread. He asked a simple question and gets preached to. There isn't a primitive builder on this site. Just a bunch of wood bow lovers with varying degrees of tool usage.
Well I guess the old saying "ask a simple question get a simple answer" just doesn't work here ;D
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I don't mind a complex answer to a simple question, but a fella shouldn't feel railroaded for asking it.
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I just prefer the feel of the arrow resting on my hand, it just gives me a better feel for being on target. I realize that is totally a mental thing.
No question that shelves are necessary at the very highest levels of accuracy but like many aspects of accuracy very few can shoot the difference.
Even the guys on here touting a shelf are still not pushing that element to the max. That would involve cut to or even past enter and probably a plunger etc too. I bet a guy showing up with that in the IBO selfbow class would catch some grief from the basic shelf guys. ;)
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PatM, no not really. Pappy
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Which part?
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I can assume he was referring to shelved bows being scoffed at. I have made and sold a few that were strictly IBO tournament bows. They both wanted shelves added and contoured grips. On these bows I used a cork wedge, but in the end, its all the same wrapped with leather.
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What are the rules in that category?
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No idea, Pat. I just built what was asked for. It just so happens they both told me their intentions with the new bows.
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I cut them in just a little, perhaps 3/16", I will cut a little deeper is my arrows are flying left a bit.
(https://i.imgur.com/kZPKi9G.jpg)
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No idea, Pat. I just built what was asked for. It just so happens they both told me their intentions with the new bows.
I just wondered how far guys would take an allowance on the rules if they were a bit ambiguous.
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I am going out to shoot my bow with no shelf,, at my highest level of accuracy,, and dream of killing a turkey with it,, :G
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I like something for the arrow to rest on cause I like to shoot with a bare hand and it hurts when the arrow grazes my skin.
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Love the passion people have! Just always wonder what it is placed in us that delights in these sort of things. At the heart of it, go make some shavings and enjoy it by the name you choose, and send up a thanks for it :)
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I wonder what Ben Pearson new about bow building and how many he sold. God bless his soul. Arvin
Thank you for SO MASTERFULLY MAKING MY POINT. Pearson bows were not primitive archery. If you want to make a bow that is the fastest, or most stable or easiest to shoot, you don't care a fig about primitive bows. You might just as well buy a carbon fiber example.
Bows that imitate space age designs are not primitive.
I believe everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of what makes a bow primitive. Your view is exactly that, it's yours. That doesn't mean everyone else has to have the same opinion on what makes a bow primitive.
If you want to make a bow that is the fastest, or most stable or easiest to shoot, you don't care a fig about primitive bows. You might just as well buy a carbon fiber example.
This statement has me dumbfounded. So if I try to build a fast, stable bow for hunting season that means I don't care a fig newton about primitive bows? Really? If I'm trying to kill an animal with a selfbow I want it to be the best possible bow that I'm capable of making. So in your opinion everyone should be building slow, hand shocky bows that are hard to shoot so they can say they are primitive?
Your handle looks great, but do you get arrow slap with the window so steep?
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I feel bad for the guy who started this thread. He asked a simple question and gets preached to. There isn't a primitive builder on this site. Just a bunch of wood bow lovers with varying degrees of tool usage.
Bingo, wish others would remember this at times.
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Same rules as a Traditional Long bow Pat, Can't be cut to center, 1/8 out I think and not elevated. Anyway back to his question, I usually cut in some kind of shelf Then a leather wedge to hold the arrow on the shelf for hunting, the one thing you have to remember is if yo cut the window be sure not to cut it high enough so it is in the working part of the top limb, if it bends at that point it will lift a splinter at best or at worse blow the to limb, no different than violating the longitude grain in the limb anywhere else. My handle is usually plenty thick so haven't had a problem there but have had it split where the cut window meets the top limb. ;) :)
Pappy
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Guys Mark and I have been trying for some years to get interest in the Selfbow challenge and the IBO shoot in the primitive division. Most of the hot shots won't shoot without shelfs. We are trying to promote the art of wood bows and the heritage of the bow with little help from the purest . Primitive Archer has supported it in the past and we think them for that! That's a international shoot and some good exposure for what you guys believe in. Where it all started. Arvin
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Guys Mark and I have been trying for some years to get interest in the Selfbow challenge and the IBO shoot in the primitive division. Most of the hot shots won't shoot without shelfs. We are trying to promote the art of wood bows and the heritage of the bow with little help from the purest . Primitive Archer has supported it in the past and we think them for that! That's a international shoot and some good exposure for what you guys believe in. Where it all started. Arvin
Are the selfbow and primitive classes separate?
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No Pat . But if we don't evolve some we die. I would like to go back in time where life was not easier but more simple and take as many people with me as possible. It's easier to get your horse to come to you with a carrot than it is a stick. Just saying. Arvin
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Is the problem that shelf less guys just don't join the class?
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Look Pat the Problem is the primitive is not showing up to promote what they love. I am not trying to be rude or smart here . This is just the facts. I wish that there was a big enough crowd their to possibly do some good for their love of primitive bows. Arvin
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Second to my family I live for wooden bows, I have no use for score keeping. The two don't correlate with me.
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I understand Pearl different stokes for different folks. Some don't like golf. But it would seem some would commit for the team. Primitive Archer has supported in the past . May still I don't know about that. I thank them for their support. Arvin
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In my mind, a cut in shelf and a glued on piece of leather are the same thing, with the latter having its shelf cut off first, then put back on. I like them both, but shoot much more accurately with something for the arrow to rest on.
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Look Pat the Problem is the primitive is not showing up to promote what they love. I am not trying to be rude or smart here . This is just the facts. I wish that there was a big enough crowd their to possibly do some good for their love of primitive bows. Arvin
Why is that a problem? I feel no obligation to promote and I really doubt competition classes for selfbows would do much if anything in that regard.
I doubt primitive bows are going anywhere but I don't feel bad saying that I really wouldn't care if I was the last guy on Earth making them. Most of us probably do this entirely for out own reasons and while its nice to share it's certainly not THE reason.
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Have a good day Pat. Arvin
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??? Primitive bow/wooden bows, don't really see the difference. ;) Scoring on a target or scoring on game, we all strive for the same thing,to make good shots. :) and by the way I don't play golf. ;) :) :) :) :) Good night all. :)
Pappy
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Pappy, all that grinning is going to make your face hurt!
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Yep Jim, sometime on here I just have to smile. ;)
Pappy
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My questions, both demonstrated with pictures:
1. If you make a shelf in the bow, can you make it in the fades that are 2" apart from the center* of the bow? To clarify, handle is 4" long and center is in middle, and fades are 2" long. That means that you will pull arrow 2" above the center of bow, so why not just modify pulley to pull 2" from center while you tiller and naturally get stronger lower limb?
2. Could another option be this one? No shelf and concave fades that allow arrow to perfectly pass 2" above the center of bow.
* - When I say center, I mean literally middle of bow. Also center of handle is to me same as center of bow, but hook on my pulley is simply put wherever I want arrow in future to be.
(https://s17.postimg.org/9n1micdnj/ru_ke_za_luk.jpg)
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as long as the bow shoots well,,, anything is ok, and really anything is ok,,, even if it does not shoot well,, just up to the maker,, if you want someone to shoot it and enjoy it,, shooting well is a plus,,its pretty simple in that regard,, the bottom line is hitting the target,, if it does that,, everything else is secondary to me,, tiller ,, shelf, limb lengh,, design,, the most important thing to me is hitting,, if the arrow is in the bulls eye,,,, then that says it all, and its not subjective,, well guess it coule be,, : sorry didnt mean to leave out the flight shooter,, good arrow flight and distance for them,, (W
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Wow yea what ever mister brad smith says...
DBar
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When I make bows for myself always a shelf. When I attempt to make a replica native bow , no shelf.When I build a bow for some one what ever they want.For my grand kids always a shelf. I have reasons why, but I won,t get in to them. Some guys have referred to bows with shelves as shelf bows not self bows.Every body has a preference. It is what makes the world go round.JMO
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I'm a "to each his own kinda" guy. I personally don't make mine with a shelf but not because I'm a purist because I don't think there really is such a thing in this day and age. Some might think they are but if its a not full blown stone tool, sinew string etc... its all a self made illusion. I have made a few bows for people that ask for a shelf and I did the stacked leather and superglue thing, otherwise I think the reason I don't do it is I don't feel its necessary for me to shoot well ( I rarely do anyway).
I view wood bow both as a artform and a craft. A mix of form and function.
I will say, that handle that Clint posted is beautiful and doesn't take anything away from it at all. Danny
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Clint that bow looks like it'll make a good hunt rig. Made these two at same time. I know that one on the left has killed a bunch of critters.
Shelf suits my shooting style well. I have and shoot more traditional style primitive bows as well but for hunting I like the shelf.
Shawn~