Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: burchett.donald on February 04, 2018, 03:37:10 am
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Folks, so many times I have heard and used the phrase " balanced in hand " while commenting on some ones full draw post...This is not talked about much and was hoping to open a discussion...Pretty tiller's are not always balanced in your shooting hand (your fulcrum)...I have here what I thought was money and once I took pictures I realized the back of the handle and upper limb was leaning towards me, I could feel it slightly...In other words everything changed off the tree in my hand...These pics are years old and some have seen them before, but it's what I found for this topic...Please feel free to give your input on balance and it's importance during tiller...Tillering the last few inches or pounds in hand... This is something that a "new bowyer" might gain from...
PIC #1 Bow rocking in hand as I draw, upper limb to heavy off tree...
PIC #2 Balance corrected by scraping upper center...
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Please post pics if you have any from a tillering sequence or correction and feel free to explain your technique and thoughts on a balanced tiller...Soooo many variables....
Don
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Don, the limb leaning towards you is the stiffer limb.
I personally don't like the tiller tree much, mostly I use for weight measrements.
I find it is a good improvemnet on a tiller tree to use a piece of a belt with a hook instead of a wooden saddle. Much more adequate to the archers hand. At least the last stadium of tillering I do watching the bend in a mirror.
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I think good dynamic balance creates an inherently tuned bow, better arrow flight, less hand shock, more efficiency, predictability, stability, tiller less likely to shift, and more. I don't understand why folks work on their bows with disregard to it... like they don't even want to know. Ignorance is bliss I guess ;) And I don't understand why folks assess and adjust the relative limb strength of their bows while pulling the string from the middle of the handle when it's impossible to shoot it that way. Think it's easier? It's not. Not with all considered.
Neither do I understand why others would adjust limb strength to achieve a predetermined measurement at brace and assume it will act a certain way. These are wooden bows with inherent irregularities, some of which are visible and some are not. We should adjust them according to how they act as they're drawn relative to our personal fulcrums, not according to how they look laying braced on the bench.
I don't wait until the last few inches to adjust dynamic balance. I begin watching it from the first light tugs of the string while on the tree. The sooner the limbs are balanced in regards to the shooter's fulcrums the better in my opinion. I don't wait until later in the tillering so I can try to feel it, or take pictures to study, or stand in front of a mirror to inspect it. The first time I draw a bow by hand I fully expect it to be 100% balanced. I know it will be because I made it that way from the beginning. I also know right where the arrow needs to be placed on the string from the first shot.... because I made it that way. That determination was made before the string was tugged on for the first time. That arrow position determined where the nock point goes, where the string hand goes, and where the hook goes to pull it on the tree. Creating optimal limb harmony relative to our fulcrums assures good arrow flight from them as a matter of consequence... among other good things.
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Folks, so many times I have heard and used the phrase " balanced in hand " while commenting on some ones full draw post...This is not talked about much and was hoping to open a discussion...Pretty tiller's are not always balanced in your shooting hand (your fulcrum)...I have here what I thought was money and once I took pictures I realized the back of the handle and upper limb was leaning towards me, I could feel it slightly...In other words everything changed off the tree in my hand...These pics are years old and some have seen them before, but it's what I found for this topic...Please feel free to give your input on balance and it's importance during tiller...Tillering the last few inches or pounds in hand... This is something that a "new bowyer" might gain from...
PIC #1 Bow rocking in hand as I draw, upper limb to heavy off tree...
PIC #2 Balance corrected by scraping upper center...
That is one of the reasons I never use a T tree. It's important to feel what the bow is trying to tell you.
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I hadn't used a tree for a long time. But, the last few bows I have been using it more. I started using it early on until Im 10-15# shy of my target. If a fella exercises a bow properly during a build and you dont use a tree, you will have hundreds and hundreds of draws in in a few hours. My shoulders started to take a beating doing it that way. I like to stop early on the tree so I can balance it out. Those two pics show a bow bending evenly and a bow bending evenly and balanced, great example Don. I'm sure most of us have made that 7-8 scrape adjustment on one limb and suddenly the bow feels like the nicest bow you've made. Thats when the light bulb goes on and you realize how important perfect balance is, and how close you can be with just a few scrapes.
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I agree with Jeff, Don.
Except we tiller a bit differently. I tiller from the center. He tillers from where he grips the string.
For me nothing approximates how I hold the bow so I finish tillering with bow in hand. I have my daughter or wife take some digi pics.
If you were on a rope and pulley your contact point with the bow string would slide towards the stronger limb.
When I take the stave off the rope and pulley I check the balance of the limbs with short pulls and then when I achieve full draw I check at full draw in the hand.
Jawge
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Great topic Don, especially for a newbie like myself. I use the tree, pics, mirrors and a gizmo. I know what its supposed to feel like but don't have the experience, so this has worked till now to help me understand how and where to remove wood to get a particular result from the limb. I'm also new to long bows, always shot glass recurves. But it would seem most logical to listen to what the stave is telling you while its in your hand not the tree.
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I use a belt strap on my tree so it can move, I pull down with my hook just above the top of my hand and slightly below the arrow pass. The last 4" of tiller I mostly do holding the bow in hand. I like to nock the arrow about 1/4" high. Most of the time about 1/8" positive tiller will give you a good balance in hand and the right nocking point for the arrow.
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Thanks, for all your input guy's, this is going to help some folks... (=)
As stated earlier, those pics were old and I don't use that technique anymore, used as an example...I pull from a rounded wooden cradle at my known fulcrum point and a leather strap simulating my fingers...
Don
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Steve,
I was thinking about going to a belt instead of the rounded cradle...I'm like Chris, I probably pull mine 20 or 25 times between adjustments...What does your belt look like, I can slip my bow on and off so quickly now....
Don
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I mainly like the strap because I have been doing a lot Heavy elbs lately with reflex and they are bad about flipping over when on the long string. The strap makes them a bit easier to handle and still represents a hand hold pretty well.
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JW,
You are correct, the tree is only a tool...In the end your bow hand fulcrum point will depict your final result....I'm to old to pull my bow only by hand between scrapes...I use a pulley system with a scale attached so I can see my weight during exercise and final draw length...
Don
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If you look real close you will see a light pencil mark "on the bow" at the center of the rounded cradle...The bow is not centered on the cradle...The mark is a predetermined fulcrum where my middle finger wraps around the handle...Also the leather 3 finger simulator is at a predetermined point...This allows me to take it very close to "my" in hand finished tiller...
Don
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How do determine where the "fulcrum" is? Some people shoot high wrist and some low. Do you just feel where the pressure is on your hand?
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DC,
I use the area on my hand that feels the most pressure...For me it is where my middle finger is touching...
Don
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DC, you can tell exactly where the fulcrum is on any bow, at any point in its construction, at any point of its draw by allowing the bow to tilt or pivot as it's drawn. Hanging it by a narrow leather strap will work, or resting on a piece of wood or something under the handle that contacts it in only one spot. I use a short piece of a half round mill file that I cut off for this purpose and place it on the tillering tree saddle. Just move your pivot point left or right until the bow balances on it. That's where the fulcrum is. You should be pulling the string from your string hand's fulcrum when you do this. If that bow hand fulcrum spot isn't where you want it to balance, weaken the stronger acting limb until it moves to where you want it.
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I tiller to about 20” on the tree and from that point on only in the hand. I use the window in my backyard a lot as a mirror and start shooting it a bit for finetuning.
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DC, you can tell exactly where the fulcrum is on any bow, at any point in its construction, at any point of its draw by allowing the bow to tilt or pivot as it's drawn. Hanging it by a narrow leather strap will work, or resting on a piece of wood or something under the handle that contacts it in only one spot. I use a short piece of a half round mill file that I cut off for this purpose and place it on the tillering tree saddle. Just move your pivot point left or right until the bow balances on it. That's where the fulcrum is. You should be pulling the string from your string hand's fulcrum when you do this. If that bow hand fulcrum spot isn't where you want it to balance, weaken the stronger acting limb until it moves to where you want it.
Doesn't that just find the physical balance point? You know, equal mass on both sides. I've had a few bows that just refused to balance mass. I tried my best to keep the limbs equal tiller-wise and also reduce the mass on the limb that hung low and it was no-go. I wound up with a weak heavy limb. Not a billet bow either, a self bow, all one piece.
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DC,
My fulcrum on the handle is where I "decide" to place my hand...It's a "choice" depending on your grip and handle design...Once I'm satisfied with my grip choice on the bow I mark where my middle finger is on the bow...That would be my fulcrum point, some use exact center, some don't...If I shoot heel down I would mark lower, high wrist and I would mark higher...Not a whole lot either way...
At brace I set a nocking point .25" above 90 degrees and place my leather 3 finger simulator below the nock, I shoot 3 under...
Draw your bow in the mirror and drop heel down or change to a high grip and the bow will move and tiller will change...
Don
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DC, no. Not all bows balanced in strength will be balanced in mass weight. Balance, as far as mass weight is concerned is determined mostly by geographical center. If you want a bow that balances at the same spot in both mass and strength throughout the draw, you have to plan it/design it/tiller it that way. It's not hard.
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Wouldn't that require knowing the wood characteristics from each limb first?
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Good question. I haven't found individual limb idioms to part ways and create adverse effects nearly as much as when string fulcrum distances itself from bow center.
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I use tree straps for balancing when tillering. You can find them for about a buck a piece online. I think mine are 1.5" by 12"
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Hello guys, been following this thread while building my latest bow. The previous bows ive built I used a hard wood cradle and tillered using a yard stick to measure and get them perfectly symmetrical, that's all I knew to do. All of them felt balanced in the hand but three more so than others and they shot better, blind luck. With this one I didn't want to rely on luck so I changed it up.
This cradle will pivot if one limb is stronger even by a fraction and because the strap (old work belt) is about the same size as the area of my hand I grip with it worked out ok. I put it in the strap and placed three fingers were they should be during the draw, if it tilted to one side I removed it and drew the bow and could feel the out of balance (barley). Then I just added a few extra full length scrapes when removing flat spots or what ever from that limb.
I didn't use a pulley and rope, but if you did this set up may well indicate good balance while looking at tiller? As already said nothing replicates the bow in hand, but this helped me to get a good start toward good balance right away as opposed to tillering it symmetrical and then playing catch up later on when it felt crappy in my hand but looked good on the tree.
Don't know if this helped any one but you guys sure helped me. This one came out feeling great in the hand, maybe still some luck involved but I don't believe it was blind luck.
Thanks guys.
(https://i.imgur.com/MVqiHrnl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/d1gBX0Ll.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CnEXSwfl.jpg)
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Oh yea, I put a couple of the oak bows that don't shoot as good as others in here just for kicks. Even though they feel pretty good in the hand,in this set up I can see the tilt, just slightly. The sweet shooting bows, no tilt. And that's not placing the bow dead center of handle its placing it were I want my hand to be when its finished. I cant pull the bow a thousand time while tillering because of my left shoulder, So this helps out a lot.
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That's dynamic balance in a nutshell. You're on your way.
I like the pulley directly/plumb below the string fulcrum, and a line on the wall to indicate optimum string fulcrum or nock point travel. That way there's no guesswork, nothing left up to sense of feel, and no chance I'm doing anything but pulling perfectly straight down.
Did you check it the whole way to full draw? Some bow's balance points shift as they're drawn, and some more than others... so if you're only checking it at a partial draw, you may not be getting the whole story.
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I checked during the entire process and scraped accordingly. By the time I got to full draw it was close to perfect, just a few licks with the scraper and it was fine. Really wont know until ive done a few with this method but it seems promising.
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Nice :OK
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Good topic.I hook my poundage tester on the string where my bow hand pressure is.Most times that is a shade above center of handle and the pressure on the handle while drawing is at that spot.I watch the hook on the poundage tester to see if it travels in a straight line.When I do that it feels balanced in my hand when drawing with even pressure from both limbs.I have to tell myself to hold the bow straight up and down while drawing which is not my normal way of shooting.I shoot a bit canted.I take a pic at full draw and study it.
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JW and Ed, glad this is working out for you... (=)
Don
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It seems the dynamic balance has more to do with placement of hand on string and hand on bow than it does tiller. Tiller will have an effect on how the arrow comes back in relation to where your hand is on the string and the bow but the bow doesn't return the same way you draw it. The bow returns according to how the arrow lets it return, the arrow takes the place of your fingers when you let go of the string.
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Well I tell ya if after breaking in the bow and it feels right and it shows me little stress after unbracing one limb or the other and I hit what I'm aimimg at I'm ok with the bow.I hate to overthink these things so much.
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Bowed, I kind of agree with you, as long as you are tillering from the same spots you will be holding and pulling it should be much of an issue.
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10-4.