Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Morgan on September 27, 2017, 06:52:54 pm
-
When laying out a stiff handled bow where do y'all place your handle. Ex: is center of bow where the arrow pass is? My last bow has the arrow pass 1" above center. This has the upper working limb a couple inches longer than lower.
I have another roughed out in this way. Don't know if it's right, wrong, or indifferent.
When laying out a bend through bow, specifically a Cherokee style, where do you hold the bow? Center of hand in center of bow? Or would your hold on a bendy bow be low as well? I have a stave chopped out parallel-ish, and thickness about 3/4 inch. Ready to layout and start wood removal, but I need to know where the hold will be so I can tiller accordingly.
Thanks guys.
-
For me, I center the handle in the bow on both. The arrow pass is an inch or so above center. I simply tiller to make that work with limbs of the same length. Some will make the top limb a bit longer so that the arrow pass is closer to center. Either way will work, you just tiller it out for an even bend. If you do the former, just leave the bottom limb a tad stiffer when you reach your final tiller.
-
I also center and make the limbs same length my arrow pass in a handle bow is aprox 1 1/2 above center, on the bendy type its easy as you can move the arrow pass up or down to find the sweet spot where the arrow shoots well , its easer to tiller a bow with same length limbs ! Also you can leave your handle area wide durning lay out & cut your handle & arrow pass after tiller !
-
My handle is 4" long. I usually put the bow center 7/8" above handle center. This makes the top limb 1 3/4 longer than the bottom, balances the bow on my middle finger, and brings the static balance point, string fulcrum, and dynamic balance points closer together which makes the bow easier to tiller for relative limb balance the whole way throughout the draw than a bow of symmetrical design.
Searching for the best location of the handle and arrow pass AFTER tillering makes no sense to me at all. In doing so, you're training the bow to bend while holding it and pulling the string from different places than it will be held when shooting it. This changes how the limbs bend, how the bow balances, and can cause set as it's being shot in. I prefer to design and layout the bow BEFORE I make it. Lol. figure precisely where the arrow will be placed on the string, where my string hand fulcrum will be, and draw the bow from that exact spot to tiller and harmonize the limbs... then there is no searching for good bow behavior... it's built in right where I put it. Plan the work and work the plan.
-
Like Slimbob, I make all my bows symmetrical, rigid handles and bendys. I start with a line down the center of the bow and add a mid point line across.
2" above and below designates the handle with 1 1/2" to 2" on either side of the handle for the fades then out the limbs. When I started building wood bows it was different. Back then we marked 1 1/4" above the center line and 2 3/4" below the center line for the handle making the bow asymmetrical with the bottom limb shorter than the top. Both ways work but for me, I can see proper tiller better with a symmetrical layout.
-
Bow center is handle center for me. My tiller tree pulls the bow at 1" offset from center vertical line on wall.
-
Just a technical point and it is just my opinion. Folks who center the handle will often swear it's the better way. The folcrum point is dead center. The fly in the ointment is that your arrow is not leaving the bow from the center. To account for this others will center the arrow pass, but that leaves the folcrum point off center. On both, you just tiller the bow to account for which one of those two things you have chosen to deal with. Unless you shoot thru the middle of your hand, or at least thru the first knuckle, which can ruin your day, getting both centered can't be done, but more importantly isn't necessary. You just experiment with both and see which method you prefer.
-
Well, I've put the handle in the center. I've off set the handle to make the lower limb shorter. I've also off set the handle but keep both limbs the same length.
The advantage to having the handle in the center is that you can turn the bow around as a last resort if you can't tune it.
Jawge
-
Ok, so handle center is strictly a matter of preference. My last bow was the first I tried with the handle center lower than center of bow and I had fits. I had it set on my tree where my scale hook pulled right where the arrow nock would be and that also gave me fits. When it was time to pull fd, what looked good on the tree in actual practice had the lower limb bending more. Trying to figure this out makes my brain hurt lol.
-
It all works! You just have to figure out what works best for you and forget the rest. Doubt is almost as detrimental as impatience. ;)
Look at the Yumi bows. The top limb is twice as long as the bottom limb but by the way it is tillered it can be shot accurately. Proper tillering makes any bow shoot well.
-
Morgan, handle center isn't just a matter of preference without consequence. It has subtle affects on the bow's feel and performance. I guess if you mean it's a matter of preference on how the bow feels and performs? Yes, then it's a matter of preference. My preference is for bows well balanced from static, throughout the draw, inherently tuned, and that send arrows straight away from a specific place on the string that I intended them to shoot from, from before the very first arrow.
Why would you put the hook on the string where the arrow would be? Why not put it where your string hand fulcrum will pull from. We're balancing limb strength and that's where each limb's energy is loaded from when we draw them back.
Slimbob, with a centered handle the 'static' fulcrum is at the center. Static fulcrum meaning where the bow would balance on a peg without our influence. But what happens on such a bow the instant any pressure is applied to the string from where the archer's fingers will be while shooting? The bow immediately tips sharply in the hand because the fulcrum moves quickly away from its 'static' position, toward finding a dynamic equilibrium among the relative forces(force fulcrums created by our hands and the relative strengths of the limbs). Even if we have it tillered so it's balanced at full draw, the symmetrical bow will tip sharply initially. The farther the static fulcrum and string hand fulcrum are separated, the farther the dynamic fulcrum wants to move away from center, and the harder it is to accurately account for it in our tillering efforts.
I don't put my handle at center, and I don't put my arrow pass at center. I try to design and tiller my bows so that the bow center/static fulcrum, string hand fulcrum, and dynamic fulcrum are as close as possible to each other. The way I shoot and prefer my bow's static balance, I can get them within a fraction of an inch of each other. In asymmetrical bows I make for a three under string hold? I can place them so they're practically one and the same. Such bows are easier to balance and draw and shoot sooooo nice.
George, I've never, not once, had to flip a bow because it wasn't tuned, or because the tiller changed, so a centered handle holds no advantage for me.
I don't like it when my posts get so long. I should just listen more (-P
-
Pat, the great differences in a Yumi's limb lengths aren't made to shoot well just by way of tillering. Look closely at the unstrung profile, comparative limb shapes, and distance each tip lays in front of the handle.
-
DWS. I don't doubt anything you said. From an academic mechanical perspective, I will concede the argument. From a practical standpoint, I'm not certain how important any of it is. I have made bows both ways. Both ways work well. I have never found it possible to get the dynamic center and the static center to be the same. Nor have I found it important in the final analysis. I know you can get the two closer by offsetting the handle, 3 fingers under etc...I'm simply in the camp that says it doesn't matter much at all. You can tiller around the differences and arrive at the same place. I'm open to being proven wrong. As to Jawges point, I have flipped a bow over, which is not possible with your method. Minor point, but part of the equation I think. And I do think the Yumi design is very relevant to this argument. Yes the design has lots of modifications that allow such a radical difference in limb length. That sums up the point, that thru design and tiller, both will work.
-
This is what I love about this community. Many people doing the same thing but doing it their way based off their experience and happy to share the methods they use. Thank you for your input guys.
-
From making many of my own bows and going to many bow making gatherings the majority of handles are centered on the stave.Pressure point of bow and is in the middle with the bow hand and the arrow nocked around 1.5" above that give or take a 1/4" on the arrow pass onto the string.Tillered to a 1/8" positive tiller.If there was something graveiously wrong with that over all these years it would of been revealed by now by a majority of bowmakers.I'm talking even lengthed limbs.I've made them 1.5" longer limb on top too.
I don't mean it hurts at all to experiment though to find what you like.That's what is fun about this hobby.To make a point about flipping the bow around it can be advantageous when dealing with character bows.
-
From making many of my own bows and going to many bow making gatherings the majority of handles are centered on the stave.Pressure point of bow and is in the middle with the bow hand and the arrow nocked around 1.5" above that give or take a 1/4" on the arrow pass onto the string.Tillered to a 1/8" positive tiller.If there was something graveiously wrong with that over all these years it would of been revealed by now by a majority of bowmakers.I'm talking even lengthed limbs.I've made them 1.5" longer limb on top too.
I don't mean it hurts at all to experiment though to find what you like.That's what is fun about this hobby.To make a point about flipping the bow around it can be advantageous when dealing with character bows.
I have seen talk of positive tiller before. And read contradictory explanations that left me confused at the true meaning. What is the general accepted definition of positive tiller?
-
Slimbob, I'm fine with the way you referenced the Yumi, because you attributed some of its ability to balance to its design. It would be interesting to see someone try to tiller a straight limbed bow, with one limb twice the length of the other, into dynamic balance.
Morgan, positive tiller only means that at brace, the measurement from the top limb's fadeout to the string is greater than the measurement from the bottom fadeout to the string. Keep in mind, that since a wooden bow's limbs often have differences in their unstrung profiles, the general profile described as 'positive' or any accompanying measurements don't necessarily mean that the bow will be balanced at full draw, or even that the top limb is weaker.
Guys, I realize there's more than one way to design and tiller a bow, but sometimes the combination of designs, measurements, and methods advocated can make it more difficult, and it appears by some of the full draw photos and comments that follow, here and elsewhere, that balance isn't always achieved, recognized, or valued. Some of this stuff is subjective I suppose, but...
-
You will find out Morgan making bows what suits you.All this talk simply means that the proof is how it feels and shoots for you/how it looks at full draw/and how it takes the usage put to it over time.In other words the proof is in the pudding.Keep us posted of your work.
-
Morgan I make my bows the same as BowEd does but I always shoot my arrows with in 1/4 in up or down of the 1 1/2 Mark threw the Chrono and where the fastest point is I mark and that's usaly where I get the best arrow flight paticurly on bendy style bows, it can very 1-3 fps but did it by arrow flight before when I didn't have chrono , you might find that a lot of what your hearing sounds complicated but it's really not ,find out what works best for you and have fun with it , like a good friend of mine says bow making is just problem solving 101 ! and with natural material some times it's hard to take canned approaches it can very from stave to stave !
-
Morgan, I guess for most it is a matter of preference. LOL.
I've made them every which way and see no difference but what do i know.
Regarding the lower limb problem you have. I have had it too.
What I do now is leave a little wiggle room and have someone take a Gigi of full draw and adjust accordingly. It only takes a few scrapes to get them even or the lower slightly stronger.
If not you can move down the arrow pass a bit to even things out.
Jawge