Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: hobbyaccumulator on May 26, 2017, 04:52:56 pm
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I have shot a bow exactly once in my life. It was my aunt's compound bow and I was 11 years old. That was 12 years ago and I haven't touched a bow since then. I am worse than a novice at shooting a bow.
I recently met a co-worker - who is practically a luddite, dude refuses to get a cell phone - and he told me about how he makes bows as a hobby. It inspired me to look into how bows are made and when i discovered that it doesn't actually require too many tools to get started i decided i'd give it a try.
I don't have any tools except a hammer and drill -which are my housemates - and I don't do woodwork often and the last time I really made something from wood completely from scratch was in woodshop in 8th grade - made a barn owl house and some small other things. But I don't have a collection of tools by any means and I am very cautious about where i spend my money.
I went out and purchased some red oak (http://imgur.com/a/U4Loa) today from home depot, sorted through about 30 planks and this was the Golden boy of the lot - straightest grain I could find and it's not warped. Went and got some clamps from harbor freight. And my Amazon package with tightbond III, a cheapo coping saw (doubt I will need it), and my 9" Shinto rasp (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DIHDU0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) should be arriving later today.
Still need some files and sandpaper but this should get me started on the build. And i have no idea where to buy bow strings from for tillering and eventually using the bow. Luckily I have some old Douglass fir 2x4s laying in the garage I can build a tillering tree with.
I'll be following Sam Harper's PoorFolkBows Red Oak build along (http://poorfolkbows.com/oak.htm). I wanted to follow the TradGang "So you wanna build a bow" (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064;p=1) pyramid bow build along because the shape of the bow is much more aesthetic (the hourglass figure on the handle, see page 3 of the thread) but I'm trying to stay on a budget and the 3/4 x 4 inch boards were 5 bucks a foot vs the 3/4x1.5inch ones which were $1.43 /ft. Maybe next time :)
Using this thread to track my progress and to get advice - all advice is welcome!
P.S. if anyone lives in the Bay Area and could offer in-person help (or tips on finding free wood) I would very much appreciate any mentoring!
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Good luck with your build there is a good Pyramid build a long by Bubba posted over on the build along sticky also next time your at Habor Freight pick up a 36 grit sanding belt an cut it down and glue it to a flat board they are great for flating limbs if you don't have books on bow building a good place to start is the bowyers bible series avalible on kindle or hard copy might answer some of your questions but the warning none of them tell you is this craft can take over your life (W
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Why not meet up with your co-worker?
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Good luck with your build there is a good Pyramid build a long by Bubba posted over on the build along sticky also next time your at Habor Freight pick up a 36 grit sanding belt an cut it down and glue it to a flat board they are great for flating limbs if you don't have books on bow building a good place to start is the bowyers bible series avalible on kindle or hard copy might answer some of your questions but the warning none of them tell you is this craft can take over your life (W
What do you mean "cut it down and glue it to a flat board"? Like make a 'sanding board' where its like a cat scratch post but for sand paper?
I have heard the Traditional Bowyers Bible recommended a ton of times. I plan to grab a copy but i am eager to get my hands dirty and am a slow reader so if i told myself to read the entire thing before i started i would have lost interest by then :) But i will grab it someday soon and read over it.
I am a serial hobbyist so bowyer is going to just add to the list of other hobbies currently running my life :p
Why not meet up with your co-worker?
I would but I live and work at my companies California location and he lives and works at the New Mexico location, i met him during a business trip down there.
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Yes good comparison cat scratch board just glue it flat and use it like a rasp with a pyramid type bow the limbs are more of a constant thickness and it will help in flatting the limbs I have only ever made one pyramid bow it was the second bow that I ever made & designed the handle wrong , I didn't have any bow building books at the time ether & it broke before I tillered to full draw !
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What do i use to string the bow? and where do i buy it?
Is paracord okay? (https://www.amazon.com/Paracord-Planet-Cord-Type-Strand/dp/B00HQIW0DE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1495836881&sr=8-4&keywords=550%2Bparacord&th=1&psc=1)
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Another good investment for you as a beginner is the Traditional Bowyers Bible Vol 1. Its about $14 online and one read through will answer more questions than you could ask here in months, and in less time. I didn't read it until two years into bow making and I wish I would have discovered it right away. It would have increased my early success rate and answered so many questions for me. It's a must have for a new bowyer in my opinion.
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You can use b-50 Dacron string & make your own string there is a lot of utube vids on string making , I agree with make-n-break the book would put you light years a head in knowledge and save you a lot of hard knocks , but that's just my thinking you might be different.
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PM me your address and I will send you a tillering Gizmo, real handy for first time bowyers for getting and even bend in each limb.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/selling%20stuff/100_4747_zpsoiv49vs9.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/selling%20stuff/100_4747_zpsoiv49vs9.jpg.html)
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PM me your address and I will send you a tillering Gizmo, real handy for first time bowyers for getting and even bend in each limb.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/selling%20stuff/100_4747_zpsoiv49vs9.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/selling%20stuff/100_4747_zpsoiv49vs9.jpg.html)
Holy cow are you serious? That's so generous of you! I'll PM you right now!
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What I don't like of Sam Harper's tutorial is the width taper (I prefer pyramid - better performance and easier to tiller?) and the fiberglass mesh backing is ugly and might be kinda ineffective. Something like linen cloth would be a lot better imo. TBB 3 or 4 talks about plant fiber/cloth backings.
I got all of the TBB e-books from Amazon. It has a trial kindle subscription.
I think a hatchet, or ryoba saw would work better to get the width taper than just the Shinto rasp or coping saw. Though a bandsaw or table saw would be much easier. I want a jigsaw attachment for my black+decker matrix..
Maybe i'll make you a string, though all I have now is this polyester that I got for whipping arrows.. would just be one loop flemish
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check this out if you haven't already - http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
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Real paracord(550 cord) is probably good for tillering and short brace as it has tensile strength of 550
Lbs (Mil-spec)make sure you read the label before buying it, so you get the real stuff, some of the offerings are not anywhere near that strong. I think it is too thick to use as a bowstring, for that use B-50 or similar. I can make you a string, too.
Hawkdancer
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Big thank you to @loon and @hawkdancer for the offer to make me a string! I will purchase some 550 paracord for tillering.
So i got started this morning and was interrupted half way into roughing the width so i only have one side of the bows limb width roughed out.
Is the rasp supposed to get clogged? I kept having to de-clog my shinto rasp with a toothpick. (http://imgur.com/a/XQu2d)
So far it's looking good though, taking a lot of elbow grease to rough it but the shinto rasp works fairly well. For the first 4 minutes i was going perpendicular to the grain and it was making a ton of noise and not taking a ton of wood, then i remembered going with the grain is the right method and it become much easier. This would definitely be better with a jigsaw or hatchet but i sure am glad as hell i did not decide to do the pyramid bow build on tradgang as that uses a 4 inch wide board which would have been a ginormous pain to rough down with only my shinto rasp.
So i got a tad carried away on one side and it has a clear kink in the taper. Here you can see photos of each limb with the side i rasped and the side that has yet to be rasped. (http://imgur.com/a/NdJdV) One of them is a clean slope to the 1/2 top but the other side has a kink bend near my 15" mark and then continues the taper smoothly. Is the kink going to be an issue? should i taper both sides out to 16" to even the transition out?
Stay tuned for more noob-ey updates!
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Rasps get clogged I usually tap mine on the table to clear it
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Nice!
my plans are a red oak pyramid bow, 74" ttt, board is 2.5" wide .75" thick (a 3x1?), 40#@32". Hopefully I could buy some industrial hemp fiber for not too much... for backing. My board isn't as nice as yours
So far it's looking good though, taking a lot of elbow grease to rough it but the shinto rasp works fairly well. For the first 4 minutes i was going perpendicular to the grain and it was making a ton of noise and not taking a ton of wood, then i remembered going with the grain is the right method and it become much easier.
I didn't even know that... haha... wow. Thanks.
So i got a tad carried away on one side and it has a clear kink in the taper. Here you can see photos of each limb with the side i rasped and the side that has yet to be rasped. (http://imgur.com/a/NdJdV) One of them is a clean slope to the 1/2 top but the other side has a kink bend near my 15" mark and then continues the taper smoothly. Is the kink going to be an issue? should i taper both sides out to 16" to even the transition out?
Stay tuned for more noob-ey updates!
quoting to not take away from question due to new page
honestly, I'm also a noob... though I don't see how it'd hurt to taper to 16"
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close up on the kink on one side of one of the limbs (http://imgur.com/a/BGoBC)
Glad to hear rasps do get clogged commonly, i was worried mine was defective or i wasn't doing it properly.
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this noob loon can't shut up, but no one else is replying so
was talking to someone else about a different design with 25" fades (outer limb width taper) instead of 15" or 16". I don't see how it wouldn't be fine if you haven't messed with the thickness of the board yet. Always leave extra material and be careful when approaching?.. ie in bubby's buildalong he says to not cut into the lines straight away, a sure way to get a kid's bow
I may be able to get some nice fast-flight type string material tomorrow (8125?), but I think it's pink haha
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Good to know going a little further with the taper wont hurt. If worse comes to worse i will do that to smooth all limbs widths to be the same.
I was wondering if the kink is going to be a problem. Is having that stay in there going to make for a bad bow? Will that kink cause a hinge in the bow?
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the thickness taper is more critical in my estimation. I would try to find a way to get it very consistent, leaving a little extra for final tillering
I was wondering if the kink is going to be a problem
leaving some extra width until after the thickness taper is established is often a good idea, especially towards the tips.
you can still have the design width by leaving extra opposite the "kink"
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I've decided to extend the taper but in order to work out the kink i needed to extend it to the handle, which doesnt seem like a huge issue, Sam Harper even says he has made bows this way extending the width taper to the handle.
So now all sides look good and it just has a much longer and shallower taper.
I'll just need to be extra careful with the thickness taper. And maybe start tillering with a thicker starting thickness so the draw strength doesn't suffer.
Pics to come!
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So i just finished roughing (phew that was a lot of work with the shinto rasp, definitely buying a hatchet or draw knife for the next one).
Here are some pics of the belly and side profiles (http://imgur.com/a/SRdGh)
I tried bracing the bottom of the bow against my foot and holding the top with my hand and using the other handle to push the center out to get an idea of the stiffness and i was only able to displace the center about an inch, but i wasn't pushing my absolute hardest as i am scared i will break the bow.
I think the next step will be to build the tillering tree from the extra wood in my garage, and then i should back the bow to help prevent it from breaking then i think i will start tillering, or maybe i still need to take the limb thickness down a bit before i back it. I have no idea how hard i am supposed to need to push to get X amount of displacement.
A HUGE thank you to Eric Krewson for sending me a tillering gizmo for free! I am so grateful to this community for the all the help and kindness.
Time to trek on
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Making the limbs taper from the handle out rather than starting the taper in the outer limbs will change the thickness taper you need to accomplish. I have not read through the tutorial at the other site, but generally speaking, by tapering the full limb, your thickness taper should be flatter than the previous design. Once you get the bow bending a bit on the tillering tree and post some pics of your progress, folks will be full of advice concerning where to make it bend more or less.
I find that floor tillering the traditional way is an acquired skill, so I would put a string on it fairly snug for length, without trying to bend or brace it at all. once the tips bend 3 or 4 inches with a weight hanging on the string (equal to the intended finished draw weight), you might start trying to flex it with in the floor tilller method, just to see the difference in methods and gain experience.
maybe you already have, but if you post the bow length and width and intended draw weight and length, folks will also be able to offer an educated guess if you really need to plan on a backing.
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@willie I roughed out 1/16" less wood on the thickness than the tutorial to make up for the extra width taper. I was bending it just to see how it bends and and how much, it feels very very stiff but i still have no intuition for how much pressure a human should exert on the how and how it will react.
What is floor tillering? Is that with the tillering tree? or does that mean bending it against the ground?
the bow is 72" long and 3/4" thick before i add the riser, i dont know what the draw weight im going for but i would love to have it 45-55 lbs if possible, at around 28" i guess? Not sure what length is good.
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floor tillering is like you were doing without the tiller tree
how wide is it at the widest? if you keep it 72" long, chances are you will not need to back it.
lots of good info on this site. I like to use a site specific google search sometimes....
floor tiller long string site: http://www.primitivearcher.com/
and most will advise to pick a number for a tillering goal, at least for the first few bows, as most tillering methods advise to never pull beyond your goal weight.
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Right now its 1.5" at its widest and 3/4" thickest (these are the dimensions of the wood at the handle which i have not taken any wood from). Once i add the riser block the handle will be approximaetly double thickness at the center of the handle.
Why do you think it doesn't need a backing because of it's length? Do long bows not need backing? I thought backing it helped prevent it from cracking during tillering.
My tillering goal would be 50# at 28" because i would like to hunt with this bow eventually, but i hear that getting red oak board bows to 50# is somewhat of a difficult task, so maybe i should should for less? maybe 45#?
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Some backings are structural like sinew and some are cosmetic like snakeskin. Some backings are more of a repair thing, and most except the first are just not primitive.
There are many features one can add to a basic bow design that make the building process more complicated, but if you goal is to acquire the basic bowbuilding/tillering skill with hand tools, then I would just keep the design simple and not plan to stress the wood too hard. getting a smooth bend will go a long way to making a nice shooter. The longer a bow is (relative to the draw length), the less stressed it will be. The width should constrain your draw weight expectations, as does the proportion of non-bending parts of the limb(s). Being a red oak board from Home Depot should temper your weight expectations some also.
If you want a 50# bow for hunting, I would get a stave of quality wood put aside drying, and use the red oak board to develop tillering skills with, and shoot for a more target type weight goal, without the need for backing.
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hobby, there are some buildalongs on my site with photos of the floor tillering process. Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com
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So regarding tillering trees, how deep do i want the saddle to place the bow be? How do i know where to measure from? Do i measure the notches in the tree from the bottom of the saddle (effectively the highest point on the riser) or somewhere else?
Sam Harpers guide says 1.5" inches deep and measure from the top, but i am skeptical that that is standard.
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Hob - You'll want to get a tool called a 'file card' if you plan to do much with a Shinto Rasp. It's basically a short bristled brass wire brush. A couple quick swipes and your Shinto is cleared and ready to use some more. I find that wet wood is particularly notorious for clogging up a Shinto (I love mine btw...) - so you might want to make certain you are working with properly seasoned wood.
OneBow
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Thanks for the advice OneBowonder.
Regarding tillering, do you have to take the bow off every time and clamp it down to take wood off? Do do most people just do it with the bow in hand/lap?
Also i think i'm going to do a pulley tillering setup since it seems not only easier to build but also more useful as you can see it bending from the distance. Can i just not put notches in the wood and simply have the rope+pulley hold the string in position at a certain distance down?
How long should my paracord be to tiller with? And how much bending in the bow do you need to start tillering? Right now my bow bends about an inch with the force of my arm (maybe 30-40 pounds? maybe less?); is that enough to begin the tillering process or should it bend more?
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Based on what I've read, I'd go straight to a very short brace after floor tillering.. the paracord will stretch anyway.
Do you want a string? If so PM me your address..
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No, no, no, never go to brace after floor tillering if you are a newbie, you will probably hinge the heck out of one part of your limbs because you won't recognise the proper bend from floor tillering alone. On limb may be weak and one extra strong and you may over stress the weak limb, been there done that.
Spend some time on the long string adjusting the bend with your gizmo.
I don't recommend para cord for tillering but if that is all you have go with it, it is too stretchy. Make your tillering string as tight to the belly as you can and still get it on the bow.
If you make bows you have to make strings, not much to it and there are plenty of instructions out there. You could start by making a proper tillering string.
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@loon I don't think brace is right for me yet, i definitely don't think it's ready at all i just know it bends a little bit. Plus i just bought a pulley to set up my tillering tree so i want to use it :) Thank you so much for the offer, i will PM you my address! I really appreciate how kind this community is to newbies, this community is definitely unique to most online communities i've joined.
@Eric Krewson
Thanks fort he advice, i agree i definitely want to tiller on the tree to see how it bends and get the real bow making experience.
When you say "tight to the belly" do you mean it should be parallel with the belly and up against it? Essentially the string should ideally be exactly the nock-to-nock length?
I was told earlier that paracord is an okay string to tiller with but not brace, so i got some since it was cheap. If i can't use it to tiller i can find some other uses for it (like the string to pull on for the pulley system). What's the difference between a tillering string and a real bow string used to shoot with? Is it just the length?
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The difference is the amount of stretch. Paracord stretches a lot, whereas a good bowstring essentially doesn't stretch at all. The string stretching will rob the energy that should be going to the arrow, in addition to adding shock and a very high possobility of wrist slap with every shot. Even with proper brace. That stretch also makes bracing more difficult since you will have to bend te limbs much further to allow for the string to stretch and settle at te proper brace height. That's why paracord, even though strong, isn't a good bowstring. Plus it's very thick for the same tensile strength.
Kyle
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@Mo_coon-catcher thanks for the clarification. So i definitely would never want to use paracord for bowstring, but for tillering purposes it's somewhat okay - the difference being that it probably won't give you super accurate view of the bows curvature at each length since it stretches and lets go a bit. Thus if you pull the paracord out to 26" and look at the curvature, that might be the curvature of the bow at 24" with a real bowstring since the paracord is stretching to loosen the bow a bit.
What is a good idiot-proof guide to making bowstrings? both for tillering and shooting? I know it's made of B50 Dacron.
Also should i bother with attempting to make arrows as a first-timer? I feel like making arrows would require a lot more tools than making the bow. If I want the bow to be a 28" draw then do i need 28" arrows or even longer? Seems REALLY long for an arrow, but then again i don't have any intuition for what it should be since the last time i shot a bow i was 11 years old and it was a compound bow so probably doesn't have very similar arrows to a traditional wood bow.
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I like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C07evRZT_PQ&feature=youtu.be
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Also regarding arrow rests, am I supposed to cut into both the bow and riser? I feel like making a notch in the side of the bow for the arrow rest will make it less structurally stable in the handle and cause it to break.
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Been reading some more and I came across this Reddit user who made the same red board bow and his broke because he rough fed the belly and not the back. I'm confused what parts need to be rounded and which parts need to be flat.
Here is the Reddit thread with comments (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bowyer/comments/26h5fs/why_did_it_break_did_i_cut_the_arrow_rest_too_deep)
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Would you want to do pin nocks? (Check PMs) because of the way I made this string...
I think the belly should be flat. Should a beginner 'trap' the back?
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@loon, I think for my first bow I don't want to try pin nocks, also my tips might already be too narrow for pins unless I shorten the total length by just chopping off the tips of the limbs. I sent you a PM
I don't know what trapping means but when you say the belly should be flat does that imply the back should be rounded? How round should it be? Also why is one side flat and the other rounded? Why does this matter?
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My understanding is that when the wood is tension strong you can trap the back, making a smaller area of wood do more work - which is then not a problem as the wood is tension strong anyway.
Quite often the wood is rather strong in tension and somewhat weak in compression. Thus you want to maximize the area of wood that is the farthest from the neutral plane and undergoes the most compression - the belly. This prevents damage on the belly that results in set (or even worse - chrysals).
One obviously doesn't want to exceed the limiting parameters of the material. The stresses are greatest on the outermost fibers of the bow. That's why it's important to keep the back in one growth ring. A flat belly just increases the area on that the stresses (not sure about the correctness of the expressions I'm using, but I guess it convey the point) can then be distributed so that the cell walls don't collapse.
Probably all of this could be calculated in the confines of the bending a slender beam equation. However, with the nature of wood it's more of a guideline, but a doubtlessly helpful one at that, as it helps with understanding the principles of bow design.
As far as I know it's not obligatory to trap the back of the bow if you keep the belly flat. As a fellow beginner I'd suggest you leave the back alone (apart from the rounded edges) and keep the belly rather flat, thus making your bow's cross section akin to a rectangle. This helps with preventing set due to tillering errors that greatly compromise the belly resulting is set and finally sluggish, disappointing bows.
In general, sharp edges are not good, getting edges down to a nice radius helps a lot. Gradual transitions are very important when (if) you decide to make a bow with a stiff handle. The fades need to be gradual, in a radius.
Edit: I might be overexplainining things :D
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@strichev thanks so much for the explanation, i don't think i fully understand it but i get the gist.
Sam Harper's guide, then, seems innacurate as he clearly tells the reader to round the belly to get the cross section belly-rounded and back-flat. He doesn't even mention rounding the edges of the back side so right now my bow has sharp 90 degree back edges. Luckily I held off on rounding the belly, today i plan to do more work on the bow and hopefully get it on the tillering tree (which will just be a pulley connected to a 2x4 with a small piece of 2x4 as a ledge and pen marked inch points). I will keep this info in mind and round the belly and back very slightly (only getting a smooth transition instead of 90 degree edges).
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There should be no sharp edges. Round everything off to the radius of a pea. Sharp edges concentrate forces and a split or crack can start there. Sam may have rounded the belly a bit to take some load off the back. Rounding the belly has a similar function to trapping. If the wood is a little weak in tension(Red Oak may be, I've never used it) rounding the belly may relieve that a bit. Somebody please correct me if I'm out to lunch here.
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I'd like to add that if Sam Harper says that rounding the belly is better with red oak, then he's probably right. :D I was generalizing too much and somehow started thinking that you're making your bow out of ash or something. But the point is the same, it's just that oak might indeed be tension weak and a rounded belly is preferable. Never worked with it.
Hopefully I didn't do much harm by spreading half-truths.
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No harm done at all :)
Okay so round everything at least a bit, and round the belly according to the guide! Got it! First i'm gonna start on my tillering setup because i am excited to get the pulley system working :)
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Hopefully I didn't do much harm by spreading half-truths.
Haha same.
John Riggs actually likes red oak, and uses it all the time, so I'll check his book...
... aaaand he says a flat belly is best "for any wood besides yew" (flat except you'd round off the sharp edges). I think he just means tension-strong woods. I am pretty sure red oak is tension strong.
I think you should just round the edges of the back a little, making the back slightly narrower, and the edges of the belly just enough to make them not sharp. But you should wait for someone more experienced to confirm.
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Hey all,
So just completed building my tillering setup, i still need to add inch marks to it, but here are some pics. (http://imgur.com/a/6APGD)
Essentially its just a 2x4 that i secured to a pillar which supports my upper deck with paracord. Then i added two blocks of 2x4 that are offset a little creating the saddle for the bow and a lip so it doesn't slip off.
At the bottom at attached a 2x4 perpendicular and then added a one of those hooks you use to mount bikes in your garage for the pulley to go on. Then i used some more paracord for the rope that goes through the pulley to the scale which will hook onto the bow string.
I got the scale on amazon for 9 bucks and the pulley at Ace, but the wood, hooks, and screws i already had lying around. So all in all it only took an hour and half and not too much money.
Right now the whole rig moves side to side a little but when my housemate comes home i'll have him secure the big 2x4 to the pillar using a really strong knot. He is an eagle scout.
Now i can get back to making the bow, i still haven't glued on the riser or added nocks, first i will round out and sharp parts.
EDIT: Just realized i may have screwed up big time, i wasn't thinking about the initial placement of the bow on the tree and now that i'm looking at it the middle block that actually holds the bow is kind of long which would be the bow would need to bend down past that just to begin tillering. Meaning the smallest draw i can measure is the length of that middle block....
I was worried that if the block was too small i wouldn't be able to put the lip to secure the bow on, but now i'm worried that if i attempt to tiller starting at that length (about 6 inches) i might break the bow.
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Fearing the worst i just went ahead and reduced the saddle height to about 1 or 1.5 inches.
Pic of new saddle (http://imgur.com/a/uurff)
Unfortunately I might have to go without a lip or ind a much smaller piece of wood to screw in.
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I was worried that if the block was too small i wouldn't be able to put the lip to secure the bow on, but now i'm worried that if i attempt to tiller starting at that length (about 6 inches) i might break the bow.
Might want to do some tillering with a very long string then... the problem is it stresses the bow differently.
Here's the string, 12 strand B55. Maybe I'll tie an additional section in case you end up using that tree as is... I've salvaged bowstrings since my spools are 140 miles away.
(https://i.imgur.com/XHKVcE0.jpg)
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@loon wow! thank you so much! i'm so excited!
I just took more wood off and i wasn't paying attention, now my tips are 1/4 inch thick instead of 3/8 like Sam's guide tells me to. I'm nervous that i messed everything up and the bow is not salvage-able. But i am hoping that it's still workable into a bow of decent strength :(
I'm going to proceed with gluing on the riser tonight, and shape the riser hopefully tomorrow. If i don't get around to shaping the riser tomorrow then it's going to have to wait a week because im travelling middle of this week until next.
I pray i didn't mess up too much. I did some psuedo-floor tillering (just bending the limbs against the ground) and they definitely bend a lot more than they did before, but i'd say it's only about 2 inches of flex at the tip.
The reason i kept taking off wood was because i was worried that it was too stiff to start tillering with.
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Looks pretty good but a few suggestions. First I would put a lip on the saddle, you don't need much but you don't want the bow popping off the front. I wouldn't trust that bottom hook, a beefy screw eye into the back 2x4 would be better. Make it so you're pulling sideways on it. If you put a block(pulley) on the scale you can get a 2-1 advantage. Makes it way easier to pull.
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@DC what do you mean put a pulley on the scale to get 2:1?
I just re-measured and the tips of the bow are 5/16" thick, which is 1/16" thinner than Sam Harper's guide (3/8" thickness at tip). In addition to this my side taper starts at the riser instead of 15" from the tip like Sam's making my taper have even less wood than his.
I hope this doesn't mess up my bow too badly. I'd really love to get it to 45-50lbs draw weight, but if i can't i'd just be happy having a bow that works for target practice.
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@DC what do you mean put a pulley on the scale to get 2:1?
Something like this, I imagine he meant one more pulley since you already have one at the base (block and tackle??). You'd end up having to pull twice as much to get the same draw length, but it'll be twice as easy.
Looks like the same scale I have, which I've tested up to 60#
(https://i.imgur.com/JxNfZ1u.png)
edit:
Like Loon's picture but upside down...
so more like this, yeah that's way better
(https://i.imgur.com/XrZKiXv.png)
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@loon thanks for the image, i understand now; brings me back to my physics undergrad :p
Some pics of the bow now, with riser glued on (http://imgur.com/a/YOWB1)
I really like how it's going along right now, it looks (at least aesthetically) very good and hopefully that extra 1/16 of wood taken off the thickness doesn't mess up the end weight too much, but i am fearful that that combined with the extra side taper all the way to the riser is going to have a large effect on the end weight. I have no intuition for this though since it's my first time.
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Like Loon's picture but upside down. Two single blocks, tie the line by the bottom block, up through the top, down though the bottom block and to your hand.
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I'll see what I can, do but then I'll need another pulley which I don't have at the moment. Either way it's an easy addition later on.
I'll also have to find a small piece of wood for the lip but I think I might have something laying around the garage.
Can anyone comment on the thickness issue? Is 5/16 going to be too thin or is it something I won't know until I tiller? Or am I freaking it way too much over this?
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since halving the thickness supposedly makes the draw weight 1/8, this 1/16 out of 6/16 would make it... ??!?!? is this exponential
Note that pyramid bows (what you're making since you have straight taper from the handle fades to the tips) are supposed to have pretty even thickness throughout.. and even bend
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5/16" is pretty thin. How wide is it at the tips? Is it still 74" long? I've never made a red oak bow so I'm not sure how short it can be but there may be some wiggle room there. Keep going but don't take any wood off the last foot or so until you see how it's going to bend.
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It's 72 inches long, and a half inch wide at the tip.
I haven't put knocks in yet so is it possible to save it by putting the nocks lower down than I was planning, making the nick regions thicker than they were going to be?
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I would put the nocks where you originally planned. If the tips bend too much you can move them then.
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@DC move the nocks if they bend to much? Wouldn't that make it look word if I cut two nock places?
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You'd end up 'piking' (shortening) the bow. You could then cut off the tips at the old nocks.
The max width is 1.5"? (ie at the handle)
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Ahh I see, I can cut the bow shorter to preserve draw weight.
The max width is indeed 1.5 inches at the handle, that's if I keep it at it's complete width which I think I should. Meaning all I will do is round the riser a bit.
Also I added the lip to the new tillering tree and with the help of my eagle scout housemate it's as sturdy as a house of bricks. No wobbling whatsoever.
Pic (https://imgur.com/a/DzrLP), don't let the side that it jets out fool you, that ledge is strong!!
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Nice, good luck
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You don't need a double pulley system, one is enough and pulls easily. I have been using my single pulley tree for 20 years.
74" is way too long in my opinion, I suspect you will have a ton of hand shock and a slow bow with all that extra wood on the tips.
If you draw 35", a 74" bow length would be OK. If you draw 28"-29", 68" would still be over built but OK for your first.
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There is a lot of random advice on this thread, most of it speculation and not from actual experience.
All my oak board bows have been backed, usually with a strip of hickory, all had slightly rounded bellies that once the top of the arc was removed during the tillering process the belly was almost flat with a very slight arched profile, none were wider than 1 1/2", none have failed to my knowledge.
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@ eric krewson, the bow currently is 72" long, with the very tips of it being 5/16" thick and 1/2" wide. The handle is 1.5" wide at it's widest (along the entire length of the riser block which is 10" long). I just glued on the riser but wont have a chance to do any work on the bow until next week.
I plan on having a 28" draw and am hoping to get 50lbs but that may be unrealistic for my first time.
I don't have any hickory to back the bow with and i'm not sure where i get it. Home depot definitely doesn't have think hickory strips. I guess i can back it with something else though, like Sam Harper using sheetrock tape on the guide, it's just so ugly! :P
I just rounded the very corners of the belly and am going to round the corners of the back the next time i get to work with the bow; but i'll only round it minimally to get rid of shape edges.
Next week i will shape the riser to gently curve into the handle, then i will (finally!) put nocks on and get it on the tree! I think i will start with the nocks 1" down the tips where it's a little bit thicker and wider, but i haven't measured that area precisely.
How thick and wide should the bow be where the nocks are placed?
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Your current dimensions sound just perfect to me for your tips. I put 2 1/4" nock overlays on and put my string nocks 1" down from the tips.
2 1/4" sounds long but I feather the wood gracefully up to the actual nock. Lately I have been adding a stringing groove so I can easily string my bows during the tillering stage where they might be 20# over weight on the first stringing. I have a few back problems and have to be careful with straining my back, the string groove removes that issue.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/special%20bows/gilsbowtipoverlay.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/special%20bows/gilsbowtipoverlay.jpg.html)
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@Eric Krewson
That's a gorgeous looking limb, those overlays really add a nice flare to the bow and the snakeskin back looks awesome. Are the stringing grooves just smaller nocks above the main ones?
How wide and thick does the wood need to be where the nocks are placed? and how deep should the nocks be? I don't want the string slipping out and i can't really get a sense of scale from your photo.
I still need to round out the tips of my bow, right now they are square on the end (which is why i was able to measure them with a ruler easily).
So i should still back it even at its length? If i add a linen back will i still be able to stain the bow or will the linen look weird with the stain on it?
EDIT: searched the forums, seems like people like 3/8 to 1/2 inch nock depths. I gotta make sure i place them in an area that can handle that, can't let the section get too thin.
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I forgot to mention; I cut my mating surface for the over lay at an angle toward the belly. This way your overlay blends in with back of your bow and doesn't make a pronounced lump on the back of your bow.
My groove across the back is 1/8" to 3/16" deep.
This angled cut might be visible on this overlay.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/curlyosagetip_zpsb2a4f00a.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/curlyosagetip_zpsb2a4f00a.jpg.html)
I only make a groove across the until I get the bow to full brace height then I use the string as guide to mark where my side grooves should be cut.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/drawingstringgrooves_zpsf7f6832f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/drawingstringgrooves_zpsf7f6832f.jpg.html)
The stringing groove works like this; just a simple para cord with loops, an extra groove on the top limb and a slightly wider one on the bottom to accommodate the bow string and the stringer loop.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/doublenockwithstringer.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/doublenockwithstringer.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/bottomnockwithstringer.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/bottomnockwithstringer.jpg.html)
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@Eric Krewson Awesome! thanks so much for the info.
So you do a semi-brace with paracord on the stringing groove to hold the bow in a bent position so it's easier to get the normal string on? Wouldn't the bow string look be over the paracord then (essentially holding the cord to the bow)?
Good info regarding only cutting the backside for the nock then using the string as a guide for the side cuts. I was worried that that would be impossible because only having the back side cut makes it seem like the string would just slip off when braced only on the backside.
lastly, in your pic the tip overlay seems like the same type of wood as the rest of the bow. How do you get that nice darker color on it? Is it a different stain? Any suggestions on what stains i should use on mine?
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What you can't see is the top loop already on the bow but slid down the limb a few inches out of sight. I flex the bow with the stringer and slide the top loop up the bow limb and into the groove.
Here is a picture of my para cord stringer in action; The para cord should be a lot longer than the bow so it hangs down from the stringing grooves a foot or so. Step on the middle of the stringer, pull up on the bow handle to bend the bow and slide the top string loop up the bow limb into the nock.
My para cord is there but pretty much invisible in the picture unless you look real closely.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/using%20bow%20stringer_zpslvknhbfl.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/using%20bow%20stringer_zpslvknhbfl.jpg.html)
The nock color depends on what kind of wood I use, some osage is very dark all the way through. The tiger striped overlay was off a very dark piece of wood and got darker when it was exposed to light.
I only make bows out of osage which requires no stain. My students make hickory bows and stain them with various MinWax stains. Seems like I left my last red oak bow natural color which darkened with a few coats of tru-oil to a pleasing color.
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@Eric Krewson very informative! thank you!
Just got home from work and measured the bow.
At 1" from each tip it's still barely larger than 5/16 thick, at 2" from the tip it is just about 3/8" thick. I'm concerned that this isn't thick enough to support a string after cutting 1/8 to 3/16 deep grooves in the back.
Am i being too overly cautious? Or should i move even further down the bow to cut my nocks? The last thing i want to do is cut my nocks too deep leaving the bow too thin and causing it to snap at the nock.
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Don't cut grooves in the back unless you use an overlay. The string can sorta slip between the grain once in a while. Groove the sides. It will amaze you how little wood it takes to not break.
Look here for ideas
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bow+tips&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP_bK50arUAhVG4GMKHVEBBfMQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=845#tbm=isch&q=bow+nocks
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@DC Sam Harper's guide seems to have a small groove on the back, at least nearing the edges (http://poorfolkbows.com/images/oak32.JPG) (from here (http://poorfolkbows.com/oak6.htm)).
I'm not sure what you mean by "slip in between the grain", do you mean it slips down the grain and splits the wood? wouldn't that be a major fracture?
If i only have side grooves and no back groove would the string be prone to slip? Or do you mean to do something more major side grooves like this (http://topbow.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/the-nock.jpg)? Wouldn't this also "slip in between the grain" (if that means what i think it does).
Just as a reference can anyone tell me how much wood i need to leave if cutting a back groove?
Also if i cut only side grooves then i would have to decide the angle instead of having the string decide the angle based on how it lays after tillering. But i suppose that's just a trade-off for not being able to cut a back groove.
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@DC Sam Harper's guide seems to have a small groove on the back, at least nearing the edges (http://poorfolkbows.com/images/oak32.JPG) (from here (http://poorfolkbows.com/oak6.htm)).
Those are side nocks, notice the the yellow stuff is not interupted. IMO he's treading on dangerous ground there.
I'm not sure what you mean by "slip in between the grain", do you mean it slips down the grain and splits the wood? wouldn't that be a major fracture?
Yes and yes
If i only have side grooves and no back groove would the string be prone to slip?
No the string won't slip.
Or do you mean to do something more major side grooves like this (http://topbow.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/the-nock.jpg)? Wouldn't this also "slip in between the grain" (if that means what i think it does).
Now here you might have me. On stave bows the growth rings go across the bow so the string is across them. But you're making a board bow and I don't know whether it's quarter sawn or not
Just as a reference can anyone tell me how much wood i need to leave if cutting a back groove?
Just the diameter of the string is enough but most people make them a bit deeper
Also if i cut only side grooves then i would have to decide the angle instead of having the string decide the angle based on how it lays after tillering. But i suppose that's just a trade-off for not being able to cut a back groove.
Yup
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Just the side nocks unless you glue a tip over lay on.
Sometimes we offer advanced solutions and take it for granted that you know what we are talking about and forget how little we all knew when we first started out. Sorry to be so confusing.
It sounds to me like you got ahead of yourself on your bow lay out and thinned your limbs too much too soon.
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@DC and @Eric Krewson thanks so much for the info!
I did get ahead of myself and definitely took off too much wood. I was worried that it was going to be even too stiff to tiller on the long string but i am realizing now that even ultra-stiff bows can probably take *some* tillering on the long string. Next bow i make i will definitely tiller on the long string with a lot more wood on the bow. I'm learning so much from this experience :)
Side nocks it is! Once again thanks to everyone; this community is amazing. I wont be able to work on the bow at all until next week but i'm super excited to begin the tillering process (i still need to shape the riser and and smoothly transition it into the handle).
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Hello everyone!
Had a lovely vacation this weekend and i'm off work today so i got a chance to sit down with the bow and rough out the riser.
Here are some pictures of the riser roughed out with the curved slope (http://imgur.com/a/KxZZ8). It was a little difficult for me to get the slope correct without taking off some wood where it meets the belly so if you look closely at the close up picture (picture 2) you will see it slightly divot into the belly where the slope meets the belly and then comes out again, i can smooth this over when i tiller or i can leave it; not sure how much of an issue it will really be.
Now i'm wondering if i need to back this, and if so where i get the material to back it with. I heard linen is good but i'm not sure where to get cheap sheets of pure linen (online is preferred). Sam Harper uses sheetrock/drywall tape but that stuff is ugly as all hell (Fiberglass mesh grid, bleh).
So what do you guys think? I don't want to risk my bow breaking if i don't back it but i'm not sure what to back it with and where to get the material. I got loads of tightbond II to spare since i got a 16oz bottle and all i used it for is the riser so far. Once i get a backing on (or no backing if you guys don't think it's worth it) i will cut the nocks and start tillering!
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Don't worry about the little divots, you have way more wood in that area than you need and will be thinning that area down to get some movement out of your fades. To prevent the same in the future work your file from the limb up the handle instead of from the handle down.
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@Eric Krewson Great, i'm glad that that'll work out. just from hand bending the limbs a bit i definitely think the tips move too much compared to the limb area near the handle.
As far as backing goes what do you all suggest? Should this be linen backed? and whats a good source for 100% linen?
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What about rawhide?
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@jaxenro i'm fine with whatever as long as its cheapish, easy for me to get, and easy to apply to the back (preferably just tightbond II and slap it on). As this is my first time i am just looking for a simple solution (thats not as ugly as sheetrock tape).
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I was thinking something simple along the lines like this linen on amazon (https://www.amazon.com/European-100-Linen-White-Fabric/dp/B000WFREB6?th=1); will it work?
Also i haven't rounded the ends of the back yet because i wanted to ask if i should round the back before or after applying the linen backing? If it's after then i'll have to rasp the corner with linen on it, if it's before then i'll need to know how far around the edge to glue the linen on? Should it stop on the round part or continue to the sides of the limb?
If i put the backing on before i shape the riser (wanted to round the back more where the riser is and maybe make an arrow rest), wouldnt it make shaping it difficult? Do people typically shape their riser and round the back completely before backing?
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I will give hemp twine a try for backing. Got an idea of a bamboo 36" bow backed with hemp... if I'm still alive after finals
Maybe this kind of heretic fiberglass filament tape? https://i.imgur.com/gvdQCpP.jpg
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The cheapest backing you can use is brown grocery bag paper. It is free and glues down well with TB glue. The fg tape might work but it is sure ugly. With the paper backing you can paint a design on the back using craft paint.
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These are all great suggestions, but i still am unsure when to back it. Do i fully round everything off and shape the riser so its conformtable and then back it once i do not need to take any more wood off the back/sides? Or do i back it and then shape everything to fit with the backing now on it, meaning i have to shave off backing now?
Or am i a crazy person who is way overthinking this and i just need to put a dang backing on.
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You can back it anytime. Round off the back edges(could have been done already) and glue the backing down. Even if you haven't shaped the handle you can wait until the tillering is done to do so.
You shouldn't be taking any more off the back if you have already started tillering.
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Thanks so much Pat, I'll back it with 100% linen because the burlap looks nice and also can be painted. Then I'll cut nocks and start tillering probably next week! Can't wait!
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Believe it or not, this bow building stuff is a pretty simple process. I think we all overthink things we aren't familiar with but just remember, it's just a piece of wood and there is plenty more wood out there to work with. Best of luck to you. :OK
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,18970.msg262726.html#msg262726
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Rawhide dog chews are an option but they are a little thick. Deer or goat rawhide are thin and strong and are a better option.
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I was trying to think of cheap and easy for him to get for a first bow
I have used them to make knife sheaths and other things before I agree they can be inconsistent thickness. The thickness actually helped in a knife sheath and they dyed well
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Dog chews can be thinned by sanding.
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linen backing has been applied! (https://imgur.com/a/nHF3y) not sure if I need to do a second layer, the 100% linen is rated at 7oz and I glued it on with tightbond III.
Once it's dried I'll evaluate and cut off the extra.
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Okay big update guys and gals! I'm on the tillering tree!
Here are some pictures of the bow after the excess linen backing was cut off and i filed down the edges so that it is more or less only on the back with no frills on the sides hanging off.
(http://imgur.com/a/aEpJ9)
Then i proceeded to cut my first nock! I started the nock 1.5" from the tip and i measured a 45 degree angle with my square. The nocks did not turn out even, and i'm not sure why. I started each cut with a triangle file, and once i got in deep enough i switched to a thing rat tail file. I think it started to lose its symmetry when i switched over to the rat tail on the second side. Pictures of the first nock! (http://imgur.com/a/cdK9Q)
I was a little disappointed by the non-symmetric nock i cut but i didn't wanna keep removing wood to make it look better, so i went on and cut the second nock. Unfortunately it came out barely better than the first...click for pictures (http://imgur.com/a/1Hc5Q)
As disappointed as i was with my nock cutting i was excited that i have gotten this far, so i cut some paracord to just test out what it feels like. (http://imgur.com/a/QU9Xh)
I put it on the tree i made a few weekends ago and i hooked up the scale and pulled, it felt so good just seeing it bend just the tiniest amount. On this long string i pulled it out to 12 inches of draw and got 22 pounds of weight. I have no clue if thats good or bad but i believe the tips are bending much more than the inner limbs so the next chance i get to work on it i will be removing some belly from the inner limbs.
Here are some pics of it on the tillering tree.
(http://imgur.com/a/3DBCX). PLEASE give me some advice on how to proceed I am paralyzed with fear. i know the lighting isn't great and the background doesn't help see the curvature very well but i will try to get a better position for the tree. I have two images of it flat on the tree, one image of the full bow at 12" and 22lbs, and two close ups (one of each limb).
Lastly i wanted to thank everyone who's helped me get this far, i am both extremely scared and excited to finish the tillering on my first bow!
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Shorten that string, the tiller changes with the length of the string and with such a long string it must be very deceptive. Make it as short as it can be without the need to actually bend the bow to get it on. In other words; make it just slightly longer than the bow. Proceed from there.
But keep in mind that the outer limbs appear to bend less with the long string. If you tiller it to a full circle with the long string you'll get weak outer limbs and tips. That's why you don't want a needlessly long string and people tend to get it to low brace as soon as possible.
As for the tiller... I'll be quiet for I've yet to make a decent bow myself. Wait for the masters.
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@strichev thanks for the advice about the long string, i'll tighten it up quite a bit.
What is the definition of low brace? Just bracing it with real bow string but not far enough to bend the limbs out to what they would be at their target tlller?
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if you have a straight ripping or 2 yard stick to rest on top of the bow, you can easily estimate see how much the tips deflect with a known weight. measuring "draw" length with a long string can get mixed results as paracord streches, knots slip etc. so its hard to get the same draw vs weight reading from stringing to stringing. three or four inches deflection @ 22# is about what I see now. If you get to 6" deflection or approx. brace height with 1/2 the design full draw weight, you need careful because you do not have much more reduction left to accomplish or room for errors. compare your bends with examples of similar bow photos at brace.
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Low brace - about three or four inches from the string to the deepest part of your handle. I use a B-50 tillering string with a bowyer's knot for the bottom loop. By shortening that string a little more at a time as your tillering progresses you can eventually get to full brace, which for me is a fistmele.... There is a term for you! Full brace is the distance of your fist with the thumb up if you choose to use that. It works for me. It may not for the tiny hand crowd or the gorilla paw guys. ;D
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You should long string tiller using a hardware store sash cord.
There is much more on my site including buildalongs.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com
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Thanks for the advice everyone!
I don't know why i didnt bother before but our own user Loon sent me a bow string which is plenty long to tiller with, so i strung that up and retook some measurements.
First i want to ask some questions regarding bow strings. I am not questioning loon's skill, moreso i am wondering why bowstrings are like this. I noticed the string he sent me comes apart from its braid for the majority of the center of the string, only being braided at the one end with a (fantastic) flemish loop, and then other being served off with some serving string. Here are some photos of the two ends and the middle section (http://imgur.com/a/QWT4U) apart in many strands. Why is a bowstring made like this? Is it to make the string faster?
As for tillering here is a photo (http://imgur.com/a/tWbPT) of the bow with a real dacron B50 bowstring (thanks again loon!) and here are photos of the tiller.
(http://imgur.com/a/qLDiR)
I measured 11 pounds @ 6 inches with about 2 inches (estimated) of deflection at the tips
I then measured 20 pounds @ 9 inches with about 4 inches (again just estimated from vision) deflection at the tips.
what can you guys tell me about this so far? I was scared to pull more than around 20 pounds because i dont want to break anything!
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Other people reverse twist the entire string. I don't because that just ends up making the string shorter and more springy than otherwise (or having to use longer strands for the same length, so a heavier string).
I'm not sure if it makes a notable difference in performance. But it's easier, and I personally think it looks better, at least once strung on the bow.
I admit I could do a better job at reverse twisting - avoiding cabling?, and avoiding tangling in the bundles. And the reverse twisted loop section could be a bit longer. But I've seen worse commercial strings.. :p I think it came out okay.
The center, loose section should remain simply twisted, though. Same as with an endless string. Maybe 2 twists per inch. Same direction as the reverse twisting.
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@loon that's right! I completely forgot that you told me that! Okay makes sense now. I wasn't aware that you should manually twist the bow string a little bit before you put in on; i'll remember that for next time!
.
How's my tillering going? How badly did i mess up my first bow? I have no idea what to do right now and im too scared to continue tillering until someone weighs in!
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...
As for tillering here is a photo (http://imgur.com/a/tWbPT) of the bow with a real dacron B50 bowstring (thanks again loon!) and here are photos of the tiller.
(http://imgur.com/a/qLDiR)
I measured 11 pounds @ 6 inches with about 2 inches (estimated) of deflection at the tips
I then measured 20 pounds @ 9 inches with about 4 inches (again just estimated from vision) deflection at the tips.
what can you guys tell me about this so far? I was scared to pull more than around 20 pounds because i dont want to break anything!
for reference, the bow is now 72" long ntn, 1.5" max width, pyramid front profile?
pyramid bows are supposed to have a constant thickness?
did you get Eric's gizmo?
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@loon, it's about 69 inches nock to nock, as it is nearly 72 inches tip to tip and the nocks top start 1.5" in from the tip . It has a constant (or as close to constant) slope on the sides going from the edges of the riser to the tip. The riser width is 1.5" and the tips are 1/2 inch wide. The thickness goes from 3/4 inch thick at the point where the riser beings to slope to only 1/4 inch at the tips.
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i did get Eric's gizno! I will need to being using that, I am just nervous about tillering, i dont wanna mess up!
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My 2c here is that you need to just get on and pull the thing. Your first bow will be a hot mess - they always are. You'll miss things that you only spot with experience, and people trying to help on here can't see them either, they can only see the pictures you take which are usually too late. Once you've made about 5 you can start getting picky and worrying about smaller issues, but your first one should be a way to get into it - it'll probably either end up about 20lb, or blow up on you and that's fine, we've all been there and it's actually crucial to fail in order to learn how to succeed.
You can be walked through it quite a lot, but not all the way and at some point you just need to get on with it. Don't overthink, don't worry about taking photographs of every tiny step, just get the bow bending. You're tillering up to 9" now which means you've got about 20" left. If you stop at every inch, take photos and ask for help you'll never get there, and the entire process will take FOREVER.
The process is incredibly simple - make the limbs bend evenly, avoid weak spots and don't pull the bow further than you have to until it looks perfect to you.
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Also iirc there was some flight bow that was somewhat whip tillered, but the outer limbs were made as light as possible
Might be better off aiming for 30-35#. better for form and learning to shoot anyway. perfect for target shooting and small game (with broadheads at least). don't make the mistake of wanting a hunting capable bow the first time, it messed up my form for a long time
I want to say more about tillering but i have little experience, so i'll stop. other than this http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58212.msg805592.html
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thanks guys,
I think you're right that i am overthinking this whole thing and being too nervous. I know the process i am just scared to go through with it. I just need to get over than and start tillering, even if it ends up lower weight i don't actually mind really - i can't expect myself to naturally get it the first time around anyway. My biggest concern is snapping it and i can avoid that by just being careful.
Thanks for the link loon! I'll definitely use this info.
I just gotta get on it and start!
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WillS spoke some truth. If you have a good piece of wood and you keep the limbs bending evenly, it is hard to break one. On the other hand, you can do everything perfect with a bad stave and you have a pile of kindling. Natural materials lend themselves to disparity, even within the same species of tree, or a different part of the same tree. At some point you just have to pull that sucker back and see if it wants to be a bow. We all break one from time to time. Good luck.
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Maybe the best advice for total beginners would be to spend hours shaping the "perfect" bow, sand it, finish it, polish it, make a string and then put it on the tiller tree for the very first time and just heave it down until it breaks. It would eliminate all that tension and "oh god I hope it doesn't break, I hope it doesn't break, I spent ages on this..." stuff.
Once that first break happens you relax so much.
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[If you don't wanna read this life-story i have a few quick questions at the bottom regarding bow twisting and choosing a finish to put on]
Today was the big day, i mentally prepared all week for today and i feel it was a great success!
It started out REALLY slow, like my bumbling around trying to get the string on. I exercised it a little more with the long string out to 10" and then decided it's time to man up and low brace....boy this was hard for me. I have never strung a bow in my life before so i was bumbling around trying to get the timber hitch the perfect length and i was confused about how to use a stringer for a LONG time. I made a stringer out of paracord and i wasnt sure how long to make it so it started out as a 14 foot monster stringer that didn't work at all, also i kept putting the stringer on first and then the bow string and then having the undo the stringers knots to get the stringer off. Also i was putting the stringer like 4 inches down from the nock on each side which made stringing it require a lot of force, i haven't been to the gym in a while but i didn't think i was THAT weak :p
Anyway i kept at it and got it to a brace of 2 1/2" (http://i.imgur.com/6mBGuz5.jpg) (a little short but this was a big accomplishment for me). I was nervous as all hell, having any amount of tension in the bow felt weird and scary like it could snap at any moment! I spent the next hour just using Eric's gizmo on the braced bow at a very low setting to make sure it had not flat spots when braced, this might have been bad in retrospect because it may have lowered the weight unnecessarily. Anyway i chugged on removing wood little bit little until it had just the slightest curvature all the way down the limb, it took four or five times over maybe 1.5 hours because of how incompetent with the stringer i was.
Once i was unable to see any marks with the gizmo is when i put it on the tree and exercised it out to 10" again at this low brace. At 10" i used the gizmo to mark it and took it off, shaved off the wood - and did this a few more times until i couldnt see any marks (still at a very low gizmo setting). I took it off and noticed that it was taking on set, so i measured it and saw about 1/2" and 3/4" of set (http://imgur.com/a/0XlhS). Then i braced it up again this time bracing at 3.5" (http://i.imgur.com/Ku1wCUC.jpg) and exercised it. I measured 16 pounds @ 10 inches.
At this higher (but still low) brace i first did what i did before, using the gizmo at brace without not pulling. I took wood off like before and after that was done i exercised it little by little out to 14" and thats when i marked it up with the gizmo again at a very slightly higher setting. I took it off and removed the wood little by little, putting it back on and exercising it, marking it, and taking it off again - over and over until i couldn't see any marks with the gizmo at its setting. I then measured it at 23 pounds at 14 inches, also i measured the deflection to be about 8 inches at this pull. I took it off and measured the set again to be about 1.5". (http://imgur.com/a/scavI)
At this point i felt i was ready for full brace (http://i.imgur.com/5COuzLD.jpg), this was super hard because i was still using the stringer like an idiot, putting it a few inches down paste the nocks. But i managed to get to full brace t about 5.5" and did the usual - used the gizmo to tiller at full brace with no pull.
Then i exercised it out to 18" one inch at a time, 30 pulls per inch. At 18" i stopped and marked it up with the gizmo again. You know the drill... I know i took measurements here but i didnt write them down or take pictures at all, if i remember right i was pulling 29 pounds @ 18 inches.
It was around this time i realized i could put the stringer on the OTHER SIDE of the nock and put the bowstring on first and then the stringer after. This reduced the time to string and unstring to about 20% of what it was taking me more to string and unstring. I then felt like a major idiot because Eric told me how to use a stringer on this exact thread earlier....
Anyway, continuing...
Exercising it out little bit little and using the gizmo, taking off wood and restringing (now much faster and easier than before) i got to 32 pounds @ 22 inches and then up to 37 pounds at 25 inches (http://i.imgur.com/vyLKf8y.jpg). It was at the 22 inch mark when i realized i probably will not hit my 50 pound goal, and i was okay with that. I already felt amazing seeing this beautiful hunk of wood bend and curve.
Finally i was ready to take it all the way. I was super duper ultra nervous here so i exercised it 50 times per inch for 26", 27" and finally 28". I measured it and it was a fine 42 pounds at 28" (http://imgur.com/a/QqVyr), i was fine with this because I was too excited to be anything but giddy about it. I used the gizmo to get a good final tiller, it's not perfect but i think it's pretty good.
After this whole process (about 5.5 hours) i just sat there in awe. After about 20 minutes of just amazement i stung it up and just felt drawing it back. I held it, observed it, and just let it be strung but not exercised for a bit. Then i drew it back to my jaw and slowly undrew it ( i hear its bad to dry fire so i didn't). After a bit of that i unstrung and measured the final set to be 2 3/4" on the left limb and 2 1/2" on the right (http://imgur.com/a/2IyTo).
I then restrung and felt the draw again and i felt like the bow was pull away from me a little, i flipped it over and drew back and then felt it pulling into me a little. I think it may be twisted. I'm not sure if you can tell from these photos (http://imgur.com/a/X20BM), but if someone can observe twist please tell me how to fix it. It also might be caused by the string not being centered by the nocks.
I hope the feeling of it pulling away/toward me is not a major issue, i can't exactly see where it's coming from.
Either way today was exhilarating (and exhausting). But i am beyond the moon with my new bow.
I still need to finish the handle area, thinning it width-wise a little, and then sand down the whole thing to remove marks.
I asked my girlfriend to paint the linen for me with some nice geometric designs, i am thinking of using either acrylic or oil paints (i have both). Then I want to finish it with something that will bring out the woods grain, giving a good contrast for the ring lines. What should i use for this?
edit: gf just got home so i got her to snap a pic (http://i.imgur.com/AD4gpNF.jpg)
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Congratulations and, damn, it looks way, way better than my first bow. Does the top limb want to tip towrds you? You need to tiller the top limb a bit weaker because the human hand is asymeteical and influences the way the bow is held and drawn above the geometrical center.
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Really well done
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You shoot it yet?
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Sounds like you need a arrow now. Then you'll really be hooked.
Bjrogg
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thanks for the kind words everyone. Yesterday was awesome, and i couldn't have done any of it without the kind help from everyone here.
I need to find out where to buy arrows now, i don't own a single one :P
Is there a good (and cheap) place online to purchase arrows (for both target practice and eventually hunting!)?
And what finish should i use to make the grain really pop on this bow and also protect whatever paint the backing will have on it?
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Great job! 42# is a good weight. I'm proud to see my string in there. Now you just gotta serve it with that bit of halo I sent you.
It's hard to find cheap arrows that are any good. Though non-primitive, Lancaster archery sells cheap carbon shafts in a spine that should probably work OK - Easton aviators in 600.
There's also the aluminum Easton Jazz on amazon and such. I'd recommend John Fredenberg of Glacier traditional archery for more primitive arrows.
Or just make a couple (two or three) blunt arrows for practicing in backyards or stump shooting, should be good enough to get good. I have way too much bamboo, maybe I can try to make a couple once I build my spine tester, but it's so :-X hot in the garage.. but I could work around that
It seems like the left limb is bending more in the tiller tree full draw pic, so you could use that as the top limb?
Do you mean that the bow feels like it wants to twist when you draw? Maybe it's propeller twist?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9cCZF9Wbbg
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@loon thanks for the info I will definitely look into those arrows.
It does seem like the propeller twist is what is going on, or at the very least it has the same symptoms as a propeller twist (it feels like the bow is twisting into or away from me depending on how i hold it at draw). Luckily the issue isnt too severe as i only notice the force when i draw it out and i dont notice any twist just resting at brace. I will have to look into fixing it, hopefully it doesn't reduce the weight too much; and it might not even be an issue i should probably try to fire some arrows with it before it jump to conclusions about forces i sort of feel but cant pin down :p If there is a twist it is definitely a slight one and not a big one though which is good news.
Anyone have thoughts on how to finish the bow? I want to make the grain pop! what lacquer/finish should i apply?
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My favorite to make the grain pop is boiled linseed oil. Just rub it in using really thin coats or it will never dry
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seeing that you were active a few days ago... bump! any updates?
I'd consider... oak has lots of tannin, right? So you could do the iron rust/vinegar thing. Could google it. I think that'd make the grain pop more than anything else I know. Then you could use leather dye if you wanna give it color, then oil and shellac. That's what I'd do anyway, there's many ways. Satin poly would be easier after the solution and dye and would look great?
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seeing that you were active a few days ago... bump! any updates?
I'd consider... oak has lots of tannin, right? So you could do the iron rust/vinegar thing. Could google it. I think that'd make the grain pop more than anything else I know. Then you could use leather dye if you wanna give it color, then oil and shellac. That's what I'd do anyway, there's many ways. Satin poly would be easier after the solution and dye and would look great?
sneaky sneaky!
I haven't had much time to work on the bow lately. I got distracted by two new hobbies i recently picked up: Making virtual reality games with the unity game engine, and ham radio. As you can probably guess my username is showing....
I did some work on the riser shown in these pics (http://imgur.com/a/vVEfz)
I want to take the bow to a local shop this friday and get some experienced peoples opinions in person on the propeller tilt that i am feeling. Like i said the issue is so slight i can't see it with my eyes i can only feel it when drawn; so i want a pro to take a look and feel. In addition i will use their shooting range and ask them if i may try out different arrows with the bow so i can determine what arrow feels the best for me.
After i shoot with it a little i will try to do some fine detailing to correct any little mistakes and then i will purchase an oil finish (either tru oil or boiled linseed).
So that's where i'm at. I have been lurking here just reading on the local goings-ons but haven't posted due to the relative lack of update.