Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bjrogg on March 04, 2017, 09:23:40 am

Title: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 04, 2017, 09:23:40 am
I got a Elm stave that Pnewton gave me. It is a really nice straight flat stave. I split it with the table saw and got two staves. I roughed out the first one and had it coming nice on one limb then took a huge chunk out of second limb with draw knife. I'm afraid it's Kids bow at best now.
I'm use to HHB and it seems like I need more wood for this Elm.
I have second roughed out to 2" wide 1/2" thick limbs. Back is very flat I would say, other than the small waves. I'm thinking I want around 52@28 for this one maybe a little heavier. I have plenty of length stave is still almost 79. I would call rings med. thickness. I post some pictures. As I understand Elm likes high crown and flat belly. I don't have crown so I think I want wide limbs and flat belly.  I would appreciate any advice for design. I have Elm that I can harvest in future. I'm thinking I'd like static recurve tip simular to my HHB bows. Wondering what shape limbs and tiller to go with.
I gotta go to work now might not be able to reply for a bit but will check back later.
Thanks Bjrogg
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 04, 2017, 09:30:53 am
Here's back crosssection
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: PatM on March 04, 2017, 09:34:43 am
Elm can make any design.  Put your drawknife away and pick up your rasp though.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 04, 2017, 10:16:34 am
Elm can make any design.  Put your drawknife away and pick up your rasp though.

Yup figured the draw knive and rasp part already thanks Pat
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: alcot on March 04, 2017, 11:00:09 am
Yeah I learned the hard way about elm and draw knife/hatchet. If you take too much of a swipe it can dig deep-easy does it, little bit at a time. Last elm I dug too deep and the handle split clean off, thus my first bendy handle bow.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Redhand on March 04, 2017, 11:04:49 am
Elm can make any design.  Put your drawknife away and pick up your rasp though.

Yep I learned that the hard way. Draw knife will just ruin a good elm stave.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bushboy on March 04, 2017, 01:03:57 pm
Elm makes a fine mollegebet.it also likes to change it's tiller,i now let my elm bows sweat for a few hours on and off for a few days.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Pat B on March 04, 2017, 01:09:20 pm
My first attempt with elm was a 60"t/t elm static recurve selfbow. I was amazed how easily it worked, how well it could be manipulated with heat(heat gun), and how well it handled the short static recurve. That bow probably drew 55#@26". Elm handles belly tempering very well also.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: k-hat on March 04, 2017, 04:27:42 pm
Elm is super strong in tension, so-so to weak in compression.  You can leave the belly natural and trap the back, or you can toast the belly as Pat said  and go a little more narrow.  I love working with elm and shooting elm bows.  It just lends itself well to my default design tendencies and shooting style.  Elm performs very well in any highly strained design, esp with belly well-toasted.  That said, I'm doing an elm ELB type bow that's not really highly strained, but will need a good toasting.  I've heard well-toasted elm is very yewish.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Springbuck on March 04, 2017, 05:34:40 pm
Elm can make any design.

GOOD elm can make any design!  I've worked with some pretty scruffy stuff.

Otherwise, I totally agree.  You have crown there, just not real high.  Classic design for me in elm is a flatbow, 2"-2.5" wide, "nose-picker" to "eyebrow" height, short lever molly or Eiffel tower outer thirds....  Flipped tips if I feel like it.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: PatM on March 04, 2017, 05:38:26 pm
I only cut good stuff. ;)
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 04, 2017, 05:59:50 pm
Thanks for the input guys. I'm was planning on a good belly toasting. I'm kinda hoping to narrow it up a bit but if it should be wide I could leave it wide to. I was mostly worried about compression and wondering how to design for it. I really don't know if it's good Elm or bad Elm.lol. Guess I'll have to see what it tells me.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Jim Davis on March 04, 2017, 06:40:11 pm
At 1/2" thick, I would certainly not thin it any more than what you have to scrap in tillering. I would also leave it as wide as you can at the fades.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: simson on March 05, 2017, 03:06:39 am
You can do shorties, longbows, flatties, sinewed - almost everything with a good elm.

Here are some of mine: http://primitive-bows.com/tag/elm/

Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 05, 2017, 08:20:54 am
Thanks Jim, I took it to 1/2" with rasp didn't figure on taking off anymore till ready for tillering. It is still very heavy floor tiller yet barely bending.
Thanks Simson, your site is amazing. You gave me many ideas for future bows also. You truly are a very talented Bowyer. I am so glad you frequent our site.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Badly Bent on March 05, 2017, 09:00:35 am
I've worked some of that same elm from Paul myself BJ. My first attempt with it came in under target draw weight as well and took a bit of set.
Its good wood, just get it dry and heat treat the belly good would be my only advice. Should work out fine with any reasonable design.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 05, 2017, 09:10:47 am
Thanks badly bent, it's definitely different than the HHB I've been using. It should be cured real good. I'm kinda surprised how it works. I seems to rasp fairly easily compared to HHB. I thought it would be like the dead standing dead ones we use for firewood. Those things are hard as glass. Really need good sharp saw.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Badly Bent on March 05, 2017, 09:18:08 am
It's definitely cured/seasoned BJ, just make sure it is dry as in moisture content. I kept my roughed out ones in the hot box to keep from picking up more moisture between working sessions, seemed to help.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: BowEd on March 05, 2017, 09:30:15 am
Do you happen to know what kind of elm it is?My red elm here is junk.I picked up a nice winged elm stave from Jon W yesterday.Not sure if it's a Missouri or Oklahoma wiinged elm really if that makes a diff but I've made 1 winged elm from a stave from Twin oaks that was from South Carolina.That elm was almost as hard as my hickory here.Made a real nice 63" holmgaard type levered bow from it.A static sounds like a great idea this time too.
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: bjrogg on March 05, 2017, 09:49:03 am
BB it should be dry to its been in my heated shop but I will keep that in mind and I do think I'll heat treat belly good.
Ed I'm not sure. I think it's called American Elm. I'm really not sure if it's the same as what I have growing here. Everything here gets about 6 or 8" diameter then gets Dutch Elm disease and dies. It's been so long since I've used Elm lumber if forgot what it works like. I do remember it never stayed straight and you didn't want to have to split it. Still remember the string of expletives my dad said when all the big Elm died and he was trying to split them for firewood.lol That was probably over 45 years ago.
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Designs for Elm?
Post by: Springbuck on March 05, 2017, 10:26:00 am
Beadman, winged elm is just the stuff you want.  Good as any.  I use a lot of what I BELIEVE is Russian or Siberian elm, just because it's everywhere.  Not very hard, SO scruffy and fibrous.  It will make a bow, but doesn't split, cut, rasp, shave, or shoot like the better, hard white elms.

"I was mostly worried about compression and wondering how to design for it."  If you are worried about compression, leave it wide.

Elm with a low crown doesn't seem to strain the belly lots more than a high crown, esp if you give it a little trap at the sides, too.  It's just that the low crowned back isn't any better at not breaking than the high crowned back.  If that makes sense.