Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: michbowguy on March 08, 2008, 05:30:30 pm
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alot of people are wanting to try to get more and more to the center of the handle and to centerline.
remember fellas, if you arent making great bows yet, why push the limits any further than need be. this will make you very upset when you either didnt line the tips up perfectly,and or limbs wanting to twist!
remember: archers paradox will work WITH a bow with flaws.
id rather mess with a lighter spined arrow than shoot a bow that is not accurate,not stable, or down right dangerous!
try to keep it simple.
lots of inspiring bowmakers see all these complex designs,and reflexed bows/composite bows and bows so short they seem to defy the laws of bending bow woods.
i for one made this mistake early on and i soon started to come around to building consistantly good "simple bows".
when you can consistantly push out good bows then go on to try other styles.
BELIEVE ME, when i see these awesome bows out there people are making it makes the little [and i realy mean little ..lol] gears in my head just spin!
try building some simple slightly bendy handle mid long bows, then shorter and then try to flip the tips for performance and so on.
dont let someone else tell you to keep a stiff riser because of hand shock. stiff handles means more work, like keeping the bending of the limbs more perfect as to the added stress on less of the working limbs,keeping the bow handle at close to perfect dimensions for good flight in terms of tip allignment, plus if you did not forget to add length to the top limb to compensate for the 1above,2 below standard grip! and the list goes on.
all this needs to be either executed near perfectly or all these can add up to the slow destruction of your soon to be bow.
build one for youself and find out on your own.
this is only MY way,and everyone you talk with will have THEIR way.
i will give you some good advice.
START WITH A BOW THAT IS AS TALL AS YOU ARE.
HAVE A GAME PLAN, YOU CANT PUT WOOD BACK ON THE BOW.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK,AS YOU ARE READING THIS...IT IS OBVIOUS YOU HAVE ACCES TO THIS SITE AND THE WEB, LOOK AT SIMPLE BOW DESIGNS AND SHAPE YOUR BOW.
GO SLOW,YOU CANT PUT WOOD BACK ON THE BOW!
DONT TRY TO MESS WITH SHAPING THE HANDLE TOO SOON! TRY TO KEEP IT SQUARE AND BLOCKY,THIS HELPS PUTTING IT ON TILLERING STICKS AND TREES.
EXERSIZE THE LIMBS QUITE FREQUENTLY.
GO SLOW,YOU CANT PUT WOOD BACK ON THE BOW!
WORK THE BOW TO FLOOR TILLER , THEN TO LONGSTRING.
KEEP A SCALE HANDY TO MAKE SURE YOY DO NOT PULL THE BOW PAST THE INTENDED DRAW WEIGHT!
GO SLOW,YOU CANT PUT WOOD BACK ON THE BOW!
i will not go on about tillering because i use a totaly different method that all of the highly regaurded bowyers do here and on other sites.
by keeping things simple i use measurements by using a cord,armslengths ,hand girths,and fingers.
i let the bow tell me which way it wants to bend.
by keeping all of these simple and primitive methods in mind ,and in use in my bowyering i started to produce LONGER lasting natural bows, by natural i mean by watching the bows "reactions" to my induced actions i took in my next step to advance my progress in completing the bow at hand.
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Good post, and good advice.
I would add, keep your bow wood at near optimum moisture content while tillering.
"EXERSIZE THE LIMBS QUITE FREQUENTLY."
I would amend this, and expand upon it as follows.
Only bend the limbs in order to check the bending, or the tiller, and only draw so far as you need to in order to reveal any flaw. Also watch how the bow responds to work, which part sets. Chances are you will chase flaws all the way up to full draw, at least until you have a few projects under your belt.
Wood does not need to be "exercised." Quite the contrary, every time you pull the bow in the absence of perfect tiller, you are training those flaws into the wood. Once you get the wood bending prefectly, sharing the load equally throughout, THEN work the wood a bit. I prefer to simply leave the bow braced for 10, 30 minutes, 1, 3 then 6 hours, watching at each session very carefully how the bow takes set. Also, rest the bow generously, an hour after each workout, in the hotbox when appropriate. Let it rest back to it's relaxed shape and keep a careful eye upon how that shape changes as you progress. Once you've reached equilibrium, the bow sets the same every time and it is equally distributed in the areas of the limbs you'd intended, then work the bow on the tree, or by shooting preferrably, up to full draw reducing draw weight where necessary.
People will say, if you don't exercise the bow, you'll miss your draw weight. This is a misconception. If you reduce the thickness of the bow too much, too early, you'll miss draw weight. Repeating "you can't put wood back onto the bow." You should plan for the weight you'll lose to work fatigue it is true. I allow 5# to 10# depending upon the design and the material. So, set out to make a 60# bow, if you want 50#, or alternately shoot for good tiller @ 25" draw if you want a finished and worked in bow at 28" draw. Then reduce the bow if necessary once the tiller is right and the bow has been worked in some.
In hindsight, having invested a fair amount of time in this post, there are things you'll learn by doing and there can be no substitute for this exercise. This is one of the things I learned by doing. Maybe it will help save some of you some time, or make faster progress in your journey.
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Hmmm this seems to go against a lot of experienced bowyers that say you should exercise the bow 20 or 30 times after each time wood is removed so you can see what the removal did. This method has worked for me thus far but I really dont know. I got my advice from someone that makes and tillers hundreds of bows a year so I assume they know what they are doing. I dont doubt your way but maybe both work as long as you are not pulling past the mark where you noticed the flaw until you get the tiller right? Im just trying to understand what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying that the wood will respond right away to wood removal so you should keep removing wood until the tiller is correct rather than exercise between removals. Then once it is correct you should brace it for a while and then check it? Maybee Im thinking wrong but if you have to brace it and then check it later to see if the tiller changed then you might have avoided this by simply exercising it. Im no pro just thinkin out loud. ;D
Jesse
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I will keep exercising mine thanks. ;) Justin
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I almost hate to jump into this dog fight but I do have a dog in here LOL. No way I can answer honestly without contradicting myself almost. Many times I will pass along things that are considered safe conservative practices because I allready have gotten the rap of pushing things a bit too far sometimes, truth for me is I do excersise my bows but not as much as I usualy recomend others do. I lke to get the tiller straight and even as soon as possible at or around brace height normally and then from that point on I pull the bow to full draw weight every time I pull it, unless I see something in the tiller that need attention, when correcting a spot in the tiller I tend to give it a good many pulls to see if the correction took, often it wont fully correct on the first couple of pulls.
Heeding some words by DCM above was a pivotal point in my bow making, "" never draw a bow any further than what it takes to expose an area that needs work" aside from that i think I usually give a bow about 1/2 dozen pulls to the last place I checked it after removing wood, then advance it to the new benchmark usually about 1" further down the tiller tree, give it about 6 more pulls then recheck the weight and keep moving like that. Very hard to come in underweight if you are drawing a bow to its full draw weight every time you draw it on the tree. If a bow starts to take set it will sometimes be neccessary to opt for a lower draw weight or a less aggressive tiller shape, Steve
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Make sure the stave is ready to be strung before you string it for the first time with the short string. My method is on my site. I won't repeat it here. See Bow Making Directions. Sand the back glassy smooth before stringing. All nicks removed. I do exercise the stave after each wood removal. 20-30 times at partial draws . The wood removal has to register. Otherwise I'm playing seesaw Marjorie Daw with the wood removal. Back and forth. Forth and back. One limb's wood removal registers. The other does't. Keep removing wood. Target weight is missed. I almost never pull the bow to target weight (or a little over) until about 25 inches. When I hit my 26 inch draw, I'm about 5 # over. Perfect. Most of the final tillering has been done with a scraper like tool so there is very little nick removal. By the time I hit full draw my bows are broken in and rarely loose more than 3 # of weight. MBG great tip on leaving the handle wide. I also leave the nocks wide until at least first stringing . That way I can track the string better. I can go on as to how but I've found people loose interest by the end of a long winded post. If anyone wants I will continue on string tracking tips. DCM, good tip on leaving the bow strung. That's an alternate to exercising the stave. But I don't do it because I need the exercise too.LOL. Good tip, Badger, on taking slowly up the ladder to full draw. Sometimes I go only a 1/2 inch at a time. I'm a cautious sort. Have fun. :)Jawge
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Jawge, I kind of just through that 1 inch out there, I might have it on and off the tillering tree 5 or 6 times just to get my 1". I know a lot of guys talk about training the bow to bend, I actually want my bow to have as little memory about being bent as I can get away with. Many times with board bows I have actually just floor tillered them till they felt like about 50# with bends equaling about brace height and then upon stringing them just go directly to full draw. More of an experiment just to see if it would make a diff not working the bow too much, if the tiller was right on the bow would work fine but not really be much different than a bow tillered the conventional way,. I wouldnt recomend that on a stave bow. My normal method for final tillering once I get a bow braced is to just leave the bow braced while I hold the bow across my lap and work the belly with a scraper, A few scrapes a few short pulls a few more scrapes and then back to the tiller tree to check weight. I don't always like to talk about a lot of things I do cause I know they are probably not the right way LOL. Something I want to add, if someone is rushing you to go soewhere or do something it is best just to set it down and do what you need to do, I have screwed more bows up trying to squeeze in a few more minutes than I like to think about. Steve
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Badger, I think at this point what works for us is what we use. LOL about the rushing thing, Badger. I always try to just finish that last task. Sometimes it backfires. :) Jawge
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MBG, I think you ought to start draftinging a chapter for TBB V about bowmaking for dummies. Seriously and that is a real recomendation and compliment.
TIM, TIM, TIM!! there is a serious issue for you on this thread. Very good points have been made about exerciseing and the possibilty of improperly training a bow by exercising an imperfect tiller. The effects of this should be studied and appear to be readilly testable. I see another TBB V chapter!
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Good post Jamie. ;) I agree with all that you said especially "keep it simple" and "go slow, you can't put wood back on the bow"! I see lots of folks just starting out and already they want to build a R/D boo backed bow or douflex recurves or LTR fantasy bows. Everyone wants to build a beautiful boo backed bow with the very graceful R/D profile but both a boo backing and the R/D design can be difficult to build even for someone that has been building bows for years(me ;D). The first thing anyone ought to learn about wood bow building is how to build a simple bow with good tiller through evenly bending limbs. When that is accomplished, move on to the next step. You have to learn to crawl before you can learn to walk. I know there are guys out there that have made incredible bows the first time out. That definitely ain't the norm. Start out simple and develop your own style and methods first. Learn to use and master your tools...and in my opinion the most important lesson to learn about wood bow building is patience.
Another good point Jamie made is leave your handle area blocky...and your tips also for that matter. Your main concern with wood bow building is to get the limbs to bend evenly and together and to hit the draw weight at a particular draw length. The handle area and the tips have no effect on this unless they are designed to bend. They are the last thing I mess with before finishing a bow. I even shoot my bows with blocky handle and tips to see how the limbs bend and recover. If the string doesn't line up just right it can be adjusted by removing wood from one side or the other of both the handle and tips. When everything is satisfactory, then I put the final shape on the handle and tips.
This isn't brain surgery but it ain't a cake walk either. If it wasn't a challenge most of us wouldn't be doing it but the process behind bow building is simple if you let it be. From there you can make it as complicated as you want. I prefer to keep it simple. ;) Pat
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Good arguements and thoughts. All I know is that wether it's right or wether it's wrong, I've learned to excercise often. I blew up a very nice yew stave once by getting in a hurry and making to big of jumps on the first pulls. Could not see any flaws or reason other then just went to fast on the stages of bending. Keenan
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I spend a good deal of time carefully looking the bow over while it is braced. It's surprising how much you can tell about the tiller without even drawing the bow.
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Big Leaf,
I personally would like to hear more about your tillering method.Who knows,i might like the way you do things better.
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"EXERSIZE THE LIMBS QUITE FREQUENTLY."
I would amend this, and expand upon it as follows.
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Wood does not need to be "exercised." Quite the contrary, every time you pull the bow in the absence of perfect tiller, you are training those flaws into the wood. Once you get the wood bending prefectly, sharing the load equally throughout, THEN work the wood a bit.
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EXACTLY!!!
this is a very good thread; beginner bowyers shout make a resume out of it, frame it and hang it next to the working bench!
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on the osagebow i just finished i was risking to end up under weight; i hit my desired drawweight on the spot through information i got from here!
thanks a lot! frank
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Al of you make valid points and it proves that there is no one way to make a bow! What works for you may not for me.
The key ingredient is patience, take your time. If yer a beginner make a simple bow that shoots and don't get caught
up in making it pretty with fancy dye jobs, skins, tip overlays etc. They do nothing for the performance and the critters could care less
if their kilt with a pretty bow or a plain bow. Focus your attention on tiller rather than cosmetics.
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if i was a beginner and came across this post my brain would explode ;D jamie2 i also always leave my handles wide. actually they just stay that way forever ;)
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Something I would disagree with here is the the misconception that boo backed bows and things like that are somehow advanced skill level bows and that newbes should start with stave bows. Just the opposite, Backed board bows are far simpler even though they appear more sofisticated when finished. The general public or even inexperienced bow makers may not appreciate the difference but in my eyes the ultimate in bow making is just taking a stave of wood with all it's flaws and turning it into a viable hunting weapon.
Something else I disagree with is that it is ok to have handshock in a selfbow, in my eyes it is not neccessary and not ok. handshock can permanently and painfully ruin your hand.
Another item of controversy is performance. If you are making bows as weapons you should expect decent perormance from them, as you develop and increase your skills your performance levels will become more consistent.
I think most importantly is to just to do whatever the hell tickles your fancy. This is a hobby!! We do it for fun!!. If you want pretty bows make them pretty, if you want fast bows, try to make them fast. If you are not having fun with this you will quit so have fun. Steve
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you know fellas, there are just as many "ways" to make bows as there "are" number of bows in the world.
i did not mention alot about tillering, because of the guys that do it wayyyy more than me,would jump in.
but if you did read, i mentioned about research,homework etc.
lots of great info on the net.
but not alot of "other" methods as i use.
some of my methods are self taught, most were taught to me by some OLD MASTER CRAFTSMEN.
im just trying to help,and not to promote some new fandangled way to build a bow.this has been done and has been beat to death!
i will get more detailed later if you so wish, but believe me when i say to you that i am no mathmatician/or scientist,and heck id be lucky if i spelled those words right! lol
please take my advice with a grain of salt and at best you may learn a little from it.
i see alot of people asking " hows my tiller look?"
maybe not perfect,may be way out of wack.
if many people chime in and describe tillering the way they do it, one of the ways may help the guy out, by just something someone else said, it would just "click" with the bowyer.
if 5 people tried to teach me how to build a shed, id get 5 different routes.
but all routes ended up at the same destination...a fine built shed!
so think of me as one of the 5 builders......im the builder with probably the least amount of tools.i am the builder with out the fractional calculator to figure out the math. i am the builder who will not overcharge you for the "little extra" i put in my work.
i am the builder who was taught by many,and used there techniques to come up with a way to build the type of shed that I want to build.
i dont know about horn bows, but i think they are cool as all get out!
'' '' '' '' glass bows but own a few.
" " " " flight bows but have no real burn to make any, but will always listen to those who do as every bowyer has "tips".
i love primitive things.primitive archery.my skin is thick.if i can help i will.if i get laughed out of a forum ,i will leave laughing with them!
i will post more insite, hopefully with some pics.
mbg.
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For the record (or dvd, LOL) I have a fundamental disagreement with some. We agree about never pulling a stave further than it takes to expose a flaw. I disagree regarding working the stave at partial draws once you've removed wood. I always do and think it is supremely important. So important that it is in the top 5 important things that I pass on to people I teach. That is perhaps why my bows almost never loose more that 3 # of weight over a year of heavy use. They are already broken in. I just wanted to be clear on that point. I'd rather break a bow in like that gradually over the course of building it than witness a sudden drop in weight. Jawge
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I don't want to leave the impression the bow should not be bend at all by saying "Only bend the limbs in order to check the bending, or the tiller," Yes, bend it as much as you need to evaluate the tiller. In fact I don't go by how a bow looks when bent, but rather while bending if you get the distinction when I'm adjusting a flat spot on a bow. I'd estimate it can take from 10 to 100 pulls to completely adjust a flat spot on a limb, more if it is really full of character. Yes, you have to work in adjustments, just to assess each adjustment. Also, I do stage the tillering like everybody else, pulling to increased draw in 1" incriments, how ever many times I need until I don't see any flaws and checking on set bettween each stage. I'd call this work bending to check the tiller. You are looking at the tiler after all, to determine if it is concentrated where you intend as the lenght progresses. I just don't pull the bow arbitrarily, for some number of predetermined times, with no other purpose than to set the wood. Maybe my style is to pull the bow so much while evaluating the tiller I don't need the extra exercising. By the time I'm satisfied, the wood is already set.
In terms of assessing tiller, my primary concern has become what the set profile looks like, how much deformed from it's initial shape is the bow, and shooting manners of course. That says a lot more about how the bow is tillered than what it looks like at full draw, particularly while on a tillering tree.
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hi jawge,
i would necer questions your ways my friend.
in my original post i did not mention the way i "exercise" the limbs.
not on a tre, but before longstring, during first wood removal,to get to the tillering stage WITHOUT taking too much off.
my intended thread was not posted for argunents and my way is better than your way,but i wanted to share MY way.
it seems as if i should post a build along, sometimes i hate doing this as it realy frazzles people out who are he!! bent on certain ways.
hahaha.
i must add tho... if primitive man made an inferior weapon with mere rocks...we would not be where we are today, and i have yet to find mass calculators and tillering trees painted on the cave walls!
these are great NEW ways of making bows.
maybe not the easiest for the beginner,but they sure did help!
i hardley know how to use a calculator and my tiller tree sure looks cool but has been collecting dust for some time.
when cameras came along, we took pics so others could spot tiller flaws.
i am not against NEW methods.
but im trying to tell people that you still can make good bows with LESS.
damn. i was born in the wrong century!!!
mbg
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you see.
lots of people,lots of ways.
i love it!
the more people who chime in we will learn more.
keep it comming.
jamie
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Quote: i was born in the wrong century!!!
I have thought this many times man!!! good discussion here, and alot to sort through. i myself am a bit cautious. after any wood removal i excersise the limbs at least 50 times. be it final sanding or first bending floor tiller, keeping an eye on how they bend each time. it became blindingly clear (i know its an oxy moron) when i first started making bows that i had no idea what i was doing. i did alot of research, and took different methods from different people. i used things that made sence to me, and left things alone that just boggled me. after the first 8 bows or so (quite a fiew of thoes were failures), things started to click. the stuff that confused me started to become clearer, and i adjusted my methods accordingly.
my point is the same that was said before, many different styles of bows, many different styles of bowyers. use what works for you, and keep an open mind to other options.
Phil
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Well I am a fairly new bowyer and I have to say that most of my knowledge comes from others and not from actual experience. That being said I have avoided a lot of mistakes by studying what you successful bowyers do. I would agree with Badger that if you want a bamboo backed reflex deflex bow it might not come out right on your first try but if thats what you want I say do your homework and copy someones successful design and techniques and go for it. once you make a few you can experiment with your own design alterations. To me a backed board bow is way easier than a stave bow to start with but if thats not what you want then I say get a nice stave and do your homework. I have been soaking up info for a while on this site and you guys have made this a lot easier. Thanks Jesse
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It doesn't take many tools(steel or stone) or much effort and time to make a bow that will propel an arrow with enough force to dispatch a deer size game animal. For that matter you could go out and cut a green sapling, add a string and hold it asymmetrically and it will do the task. From that point, the sky is the limit...fancy tip overlays, skin and other backings, center shot handles, R/D profile and the list goes on. All of these details are up to the bowyer...but none of it is necessary to propel that deadly arrow.
I think I build a pretty nice looking bow but that part of of the process is decided only after I build a bow with the tiller that suits me. Generally, and like Jamie2 said, the staves tells me what bow I will build. I try to go with the flow of the wood instead of trying to fight it. I do use artificial methods sometimes to alter some aspects of the staves characteristics but not in all cases. I have made some successful bows with iffy staves using just simple tools and good tillering methods and my ultimate bow building goal is going in that direction...backwards I guess. ;) I don't want to see how fancy I can make a bow but how simply I can make a bow. This has helped me learn more about bow building than all the "pretty" I have ever put in a bow.
I believe that primitive man used what he could obtain to make the most practical and effective weapon he could. His life depended on that weapon so its effectiveness and durability were his main concern. In some cases he even added some artistic features. They may have improved his weapon through spiritual aspects but had nothing physical to do with the bows performance
ps. Steve(Badger) It does take more tools and supplies to make a R/D, boo backed bow and for me it is more difficult than a simple stave bow. My point is, being able to see proper tiller and being able to achieve it is more important in wood bow building. All the rest can be included in ones bow building kit bag but without a properly tillered bow its only fluff. Pat
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For the record (or dvd, LOL) I have a fundamental disagreement with some. We agree about never pulling a stave further than it takes to expose a flaw. I disagree regarding working the stave at partial draws once you've removed wood. I always do and think it is supremely important. So important that it is in the top 5 important things that I pass on to people I teach. That is perhaps why my bows almost never loose more that 3 # of weight over a year of heavy use. They are already broken in. I just wanted to be clear on that point. I'd rather break a bow in like that gradually over the course of building it than witness a sudden drop in weight. Jawge
I love it George, I expect mine to loose less than 3 pounds after shooting 1000 times.
Pat, for me it is easier to make a backed board bow. I find boo backed osage to be so amazingly forgiving in tiller. Not necessarily a R/D. That is a whole other can of worms, as would be building a R/D selfbow. Justin
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do any of you who do not cut there own staves, or even those wo do.....
know which side of the tree trunk was under some sort of tension whilst it was alive?
if not do you know how to tell?
do you know which way the bow MAY twist even if you corrected the initial profile for layout?
do you know if the knot you are working around : can you tell or know if it was very fruitfull in the life years of the tree and know whether or not it is overstressed and will fail because of the weight it had to hlod up when it was alive and well?
can you understand what the wood is telling you,and when to stop removing wood,or how long of a bow that your stave will produce?
why sappling bows are BETER than most seasoned staves?????
i do. ;)
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i realy think i might have opend up a big can o worms but i do believe this.
learn more about the wood and woods you took your stave from.
look at the enviorment.
is it usualy wet.
is it usualy dry.
was the tree close to an open field where some branches grow longer to reach sunlight to thrive, but in excess overstress the limb pockets and ot knots.
what trees thrive in the patch of woods you took it from.
alot of these questions are unknowns, to most who buy there staves, and for those who keep eyes open for "just bowwood" are sometimes blind to the obvious enviroment.
and i will tell you, that using mass calculators, and tillering trees and proven standard techniques....this is where the modern type bowbuilding skills push us through to a nice working bow.
i just want to open some eyes to some of the old ways.
even tho i am young, i have had great teachers. ;) ;) ;)
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I dont want to misquote Badger I dont think he said anything about reflex deflex . Thats not what I meant I dont think r/d is easier to tiller its a lot harder :)
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my main intent is to relate more of woodlore ,and bieng a part of the natural enviroment from wich you took the said piece of wood.
a little more on myself for all of you that are still shaking your heads! lol
I...
i have not started fire with a hand drill.
i have not made clay pottery.
i do not live in a teepee.
i do not hunt in buck skins.
i have not made thousands of bows.
i still do not understand women!
i do know the woods i travel.
i have learned wild ways and how to track , and not BE tracked.
i know what knives keep and hold a keen edge.
i do know how to stay alive.
i have closed my mouth and open my eyes to my elders.
i have learned much around many campfires/and tables.
i have no more money than the local convienience store clerk just getting by.
what i want to do is help others understand the way i do things.
and that is simple things, and how to make simple bows.
i will not say that math and science are the "devil" lol.
i will say,you dont always "need" them.
hope you enjoyed my little STAND of sorts.
hahaha.
now to hunker back down and keep lurking around.
mbg!
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The one thing that is comical about this sport of making bows is that we as a group have so successfully passed on the information of how to do these things that a newcomer can come in and build a bow almost as good as our best efforts in a relatively short time from when he began. We have a group that meets in pasadena once a month for bow makig sessions. After just a few months some of these guys are putting out beauties. My true love will always be a straight stave bow, I don't like too much character and prefer nice clean staves with as small of flaws and knots as I can get away with. My true joy comes in when I hear stories about my bows that I give away. My buddy was out hunting this week and I had given him an 85#@31" hickory long bow about 70# long. One of the 17 yr old kids on the ranch was admiring the bow and mu buddy said if you can draw the bow back I will give it to you. I guess the kid drew the bow back to his ear. My buddy called thinking I was going to be mad, That tickled the heck out of me knowing my bow found a good home on a ranch in the mountains loaded with pig and deer. Even more that the kid seemed like he wanted to throw away his coumpound in favor of the old hickory bow. I have to buy my staves and they are not cheap so I am limited to buying 1 or 2 a month as rule. The bamboo backed bows I can produce for about $12.00 each. This is the only reason I build more boo backed bows than stave bows. I also still build a fair share of board bows. Mostly from maple and red oak. These are great starter bows to learn tillering and tecniques also great to experiment with as they are relatively cheap. Steve
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Mbg, 35 years for teaching, 2 wonderful daughters and a dear loving wife have made me used to having my ways questioned. It's ok. Justin, if nothing else I am good for comic relief. Jawge
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jamie i wish we lived closer cause we'd have a blast ;D
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Al of you make valid points and it proves that there is no one way to make a bow! What works for you may not for me.
The key ingredient is patience, take your time. If yer a beginner make a simple bow that shoots and don't get caught
up in making it pretty with fancy dye jobs, skins, tip overlays etc. They do nothing for the performance and the critters could care less
if their kilt with a pretty bow or a plain bow. Focus your attention on tiller rather than cosmetics.
I could not have said it better.....a Pretty Wallhanger is not my Cup-O-Tea....give me a Bow that I can take out and crawl through the Brush and climb Trees with....and not have to worry about mussing up the Play Purdies that adorn it......... ::)
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jawge, like i said i wouldnt be whare i am today if my mouth was bigger than my ears.
jamie 1, i wish you did to buddy,i realy do.
and dear badger, your screen name says it all! lol
chill out my friend.
if you choose to title me as a newcomer...so be it.
i respect my elders as well,so i will not attack on ya.
why do you get so hot headed when i come here and try to shed light on the ways i make bows?
or possibly what i have learned while in the woods?
tell all your bowyer buddies that a newcomer has taken over the forum. lol
it will never happen.
as i will never know your vast knowledge about cast,flightbows and getting peak performance out of said piece of wood.
this i can say truthfully.
can you truthfully question my abilities in the woods to choose a stave?
can you truthfully state that what i bring to the table is cheap nonsense?
badger.
you know what YOU know and learned.
I know what i have learned,and it is probably way less than you as you have many years of making bows than i.
i for one do not fear change, or try to grasp new concepts, or fail to recognize that we as bowyers need to NOT dismiss any new way of doing things. we just would not grow,mentaly and our bows would always be the same.
sorry i called myself a bowyer again.
i see that you help many people out there.
i read your posts quite often,and still will. i like what you have to say.
so why the ill temper twords me/my ways.
some people...like me cannot grasp mass calculation,wood densities,forcedraw curves, that well.
so i chose to take alternate routes to get to a finished bow.
is your way best?
maybe.
is my way wrong?
maybe.
im just not twisting my brain around a calculator,compass,straightlines,calipers,etc.
mbg
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this is a response from our beloved badger,and my reply from another site concerning the same thing....
[badger]
When you see someone simply pick up a branch, put a string on it and shoot an arrow faster than someone who has spent 20 hours building a poorly designed bow then you realize paying attention to design is important. Not math, not science just learning sound design tecniques based on science and math. I would much rather have a crummy tillered bow that could cast an arrow 200 yards than a perfect tillered bow that could not hit 140 yards with the same arrow. Just being honest here as I see examples of this all the time. Sometimes I feel that guys who care about performance almost have to apologise for it. Thats a crock in my opinion, becomming a bowyer also means making a bow that has some cast to it. If you hand over an old blocky built stave bow to a glass bow shooter to take a couple of shots with he will be amused but likley never shoot another one. If you hand him one to try and he shoots his arrow 12" above his target he is impressed and suddenly becomes interested. Steve
my response[mbg]
i wish it was as simple as picking up a branch.
i was sure some would get a little hot under the collar, probably because they have so many years vested in research and making bows they cant possibly believe someone could make bow just with a branch picked up out of the woods.
i am talking about the skills it takes to CHOOSE the SPECIFIC branch and WHY you would want that one over any else.
also who would hand over a overbuilt blocky handle shocky selfbow to a glass shooter...
POSSIBLY A NEWBIE WANTING TO SHOW OFF HIS VERY FIRST BOW? why pick it apart.praise him brother.if i was handed such a bow i would say good job,and try to give some tips about possibly shooting some heavier shafts to tame it down, or re work the tips.
maybe its just me but i wouldnt have it in me to ask if it cast 200yards.
why appoligise for performance if you did your homework better than the rest..you should be proud. silly.
chill out my friend.
i couldnt tell you if my bows could touch 200 yards, let alone a pooly made one that casts 140,and personaly i wouldnt give to shakes of a rats tail either because ....in the original post i mention flight bows are not my thing. AND I AM NOT BASHING THOSE WHO ENJOY IT.
next time i try to hit an animal [ias if i would try] at 150 yards ill let you know how close i get.
mbg
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to all who responded to this post...
thanks for the kind words. ;D
my intent was totaly taken out of content. ???
badger, someday when i become a bowyer i hope i am as good as you. >:D
mbg
budding bowyer.
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do any of you who do not cut there own staves, or even those wo do.....
know which side of the tree trunk was under some sort of tension whilst it was alive?
if not do you know how to tell?
MBG....down here it is really easy to tell what side is in compression and which is in tension....we have a prevailing S/Westerly Wind that blows all year at from 5-50 miles an hour.....so the N/E side is in Compression....and the S/W side in under tension..because the poor trees grow leaning with the Wind!!
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MBG I'm happy if a bow of mine
1) doesn't break ;D
2) flings an arrow with enough force to take game ;D
3) don't care what others think ;D
With that said we are all on our own journey I admire badger for his technical expertise and his years of research.
I also admire you for wanting to be primitive and do it your way. There is no one way to make a bow just as there is no perfect
bow wood. Sorry osage lovers but its not perfect :o The reason I quit compounds was the the unrelenting quest for speed and
perfection, primitive archery allows me to be what I want with no preconceived notions. If I want to make a simple functional bow I can,
if I want to make a prettified bow I can, and ifin I want to cut a green branch and fling some sticks I can. I like to shoot just for the fun of it
and I also like to hunt all on my own terms. There is no wrong way to enjoy what we do its a personal choice the main thing is don't lose the excitement you
felt when you flung that first arrow from your first selfbow ;D ;D ;D
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Well Michiganbowguy I hope you post the answers to all those questions you asked us ;D, but until you do I'm going to keep making bows like I'm doing em, and try and learn how to make my bows faster and more efficient. ;D . I was going to make the next bow I have started now without as much center cut like you instructed, but after reading all of what you wrote again, I think there may be a dark horse in your closet. ::) I read your post thinking you have a little nasty bow chip on your shoulder put there by some of the other bow makers methods which automatically branded some of the good bow makers as being insufficient. Including me which is probably true since that was bow number 2 I had jsut posted ! I was willing to change my style at that point on a bow or two to show you I had no predigest and I could and would make a bow that shot around the handle.
The deal is I got to thinking about it. Unless you just like em that way,why make a bow shoot around the handle more if you can make one shoot around the handle less. Sometimes less is more and I think Badger can prove it with the bows he makes. Also I cant figure out why anyone would want to make a bow that say shot 140 fps if you can figure out that it might be made better if you take a little more wood off what looks like a perfect bow, drop it from 50 to 48 lb's pull and make it shoot 160 170 instead. Also why you would bash the guy that is smart enough to do it and has made thousands of bows unless there is a horse of a different color in your closet. Also I dont think Badger was saying your bows shot slow I think what he presented was they may be made to be better. So here is what Im going to do. I'm going to make all kinds of bows and I'm going to make em like I want to, and make a lot of bad mistakes and my bow's probably aren't as good as yours but I'm going to have A lot fun doing it and not get rapped up in some dramatic cry to KISS (the last abreiavation for the word is the one that bothers me) the word is STUPID which I dont see any reason in staying that way more that once. ;D I never was lucky enough to be trained by on of those old masters and frankly after reading your post I think you may have missed the most important part of their training. THE SEASONS CHANGE, AND THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE DIFFERENT AND WAY BETTER THAN YOU SO YOU MAY AS WELL GET OVER IT GET OVER IT ;)
Just remember I don't sell em, I can barely give em away !!
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i believe you are all right.
and i want to apoligize to badger publicly as i did not understand his post.
i have no chip on my shoulder, and im probably one of the nicest uguly guys youll ever meet! ;D
i just wanted to sow some "other" ways.
that is all. im not here to argue.
can you all forgive the big guy or what.
::) ::) ::) ::)
the only chips that are on my shoulder is that of bow scrapings ;)
mbg. out.
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MBG, hey guy no need to apologise, having different opinions is fine. Yours is every bit as valid as mine is. Tim Baker and I argue constantly but I still consider him a close bow making comrad. I like it when we all express our own opinions. Steve
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I seem to always put my foot in the wrong place. ;)
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mbg, this is what we do here. Knock down; drag out fights about this and that. When we are done, this and that is still this and that as it has been for millennia with a few improvements and modifications or so we think. This thing we call the internet is a marvelous invention allowing me to communicate with others who are like minded. Often times these others are clear across the continent. It's an awfully long walk to Michigan, mbg. But it has been wonderful talking to you. Those of us who love wooden bows (or bows not so wooden but close enough) know that in the final analysis that love transcends distance and time. I'd like to think a bowyer from another state or country would pick up one of my bows and smile and may be shake his head. I'd like to think that a bowyer from a time long ago, perhaps from a pre Columbian Eastern Woodland tribe, would pick up one of my bows and nod his head approvingly, hunt with it and kill supper. That is my wish. :) Jawge
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and im probably one of the nicest ugly guys you'll ever meet! Grin
Man have you seen my pic?? You be way more handsome compared to me if that is any consolation. ;D
You know what that guy up in AK says about all that ugly business.
Quote.
If the women don't find ya handsome they sure better find ya handy!!!!!
My wife says I better get busy workin on sumpthin with my hands pretty quick.
I think she means it too!
She once said I could scare a hungry wolf off a fresh killed elk carcase.
I gota get rid of that woman one of these days!!
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Cut, you can come stick up for me any time you want!! I can use all the friends I can get!! Steve
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I seem to always put my foot in the wrong place. ;)
I know the feeling ;)