Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: EdwardS on November 15, 2016, 08:03:03 pm
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Yeah, that's DL, not OL. I was born with Marfan syndrome, a genetic disorder that makes you excessively tall and skinny normally, as well as making your arms and legs oversized for even your height (I stand 6' 7" in my leg braces, but have an armspan of 7' 4".) It causes a lot of other serious problems as well, like multiple organ failure in my case (under control at the moment, though) but I've been an ardent archer and bowhunter since about four or five. I've made my own bows before, and I've even been able to make one cable-backed red oak that would draw to 36" but I took too much wood off as it was my first bow and it got overstressed. Still draws, still shoots but has no cast.
I own a horn bow that handles my 36" arrows just fine, I have an osage longbow that draws 34" and a bow of materials that shall not be named that can do 36". But even that feels short and unnatural. I use thumb draw, as my fingers were mangled in a wreck and while I can shoot three under, I have some trouble with a clean release. I can honestly draw to 42" but every inch makes getting shafts harder and harder to do. I studied kyudo and Manchu archery, so long draws are something I'm very accustomed to.
At this point, I have roughly one limitation on what I will do-I am allergic to osage, to a point that requires hospital intervention. So I can't use it. Other than that, I will take advice, listen, accept that people here have forgotten more about bowbuilding than I ever knew, and generally just be thankful for the help.
I have here privet (ligustrum sinense,) crepe myrtle, possibly some straight maples, silver birch, a 100 year old chunk of red oak, and I can buy 8 foot boards of ERC. I have enough sinew to make a few bows, plenty of hide glue, and enough rawhide for at least one backing. Toolwise I have various files, a farrier's rasp, a 9" bandsaw, and lots of knives. Most wood would have to be felled and worked green to be put up to dry (though I have plenty of dry space to do so) but it's cooler weather, so that's OK.
Anything else I would have to hunt pretty hard for, but I should have tree of heaven (ailanthus) and hackberry that I can cut, and there used to be a few hop-hornbeam and hickory saplings. All depends on how well I get around on my new hip.
Thanks in advance, even if all you got is "I got no idea."
Oh, and if you're interested in learning more, you can visit www marfan.org to learn more about my condition.
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With a new hip, maybe a board bow? just curious what poundage you prefer, and do you take a liking to bows made from lighter wood or simple designs?
and welcome
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I'm shooting for around 45 pounds, and I like Native American styles, but I own an Assyrian hornbow, a modern materials hockey stick style static, the osage longbow, and I made a hickory spliced static as my most recent. That's been a while, as I spent most of this year laid up. I'm enjoying being up on my feet again, but I'm unable to get any boards but red oak and ERC, so I'm not sure exactly how useful that will be.
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I was asking about preferred styles to see what kind of materials seem to shoots well for you so far. If you have to scale up a design to accommodate longer draws, 45# could be considered light for what longer limbs are capable of.
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Edward,
Red oak is a fine bow wood in board or stave form. I think you said you had access to it.
For a length for a selfbow double your draw and add at least 20%. If backed you can go shorter
Choose straight grained boards.
There's a buildalong on my site and you can use 1 3/8" for 45#.
You have a 100 year old piece of red oak? Interesting. Not sure if that would work though I've used 30 year old red oak boards.
Maple is a fine bow wood also. I have no experience with the others you mentioned.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/boardbowbuildalong.html
Jawge
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I have built bows from tree o heaven and privet and while they will make a decent bow i don't feel that they will work for that draw length. Now i am thinking a maple or a hickory core with bamboo back and belly with a bendy d bow design and static recurves. Make it at least 72" long and maybe a little more like 76" ttt. Come to think of it you probably don't need the boo belly
and maybe yellow heart would make a good belly wood in that case
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Would asymmetry help? Maybe deflex recurve?
I want to make a 50" bamboo nylon cable backed bow with a 33" draw length... and static recurves, and setback handle
Dowels from the hardware store get pretty long sometimes
Ali bow sells arrows up to a meter long I think (39"). There's also the bamboo shafts on ebay. I have some 4' bamboo sticks that are all crooked ... ...
Good luck
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Bamboo arrows are available - look for a fella named sventiger on atarn.net - that is where everybody else who is selling long boo shafts gets them from.
At the end of the day any bow wood will work. It is simply a case of scaling everything up to your drawlength.
40 inch draw compared to a 28 inch draw - 40/28 = 1.4286 so take the figures that work for a 28 inch draw bow and multiply width and length by 1.4268.
The key is going to be getting your tiller correct. Too much bend inner limb and you will get handshock. Make a parallel width bow that tapers to the tips about 10 inch from the nocks. Elliptical tiller. There shouldn't be any problems.
You can get boards through the mail. Maybe try trading with somebody on here?
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I don't know. I will guess. 84" 1 3/4 at fades. Using Osage . Ten inch handle. Get the ends narrow. Arvin
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Hello Edward, very interesting about your condition. I've learned some about that over the years. I hope things continue to go well for you.
I'm sure its all very doable but the trick will just be to find staves cut to what you'll need...
Years ago I tought a young fella and he made a hickory stave flatbow that we took out to about 33". He is 6'11".
Wish you the best in your pursuit.
Steve Parnell
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It's a bit of a challenge but I see no reason why it can't be done. Could possibly get the bow length down into the low 70" with the right materials and the right design.
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I don't know if it's something you want to try yourself but I would honestly look at the Japanese Yumi, a tried and true design for a long long draw, and Ya, or yumi arrows are up to 43" or so. Just thinking out loud.
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I can make quality split lumber, machine-spun, non-tapered shafts of any length. Im currently set up for 21/64, 11/32 and 23/64. I'm very picky about grain orientation and use only the most carefully selected dimensional lumber. If you'd like, I would be happy to send you a dozen as a Christmas gift, if you're inside CONUS. Douglas Fir maybe?
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I would absolutely love that!
I'm leaning toward a Manchu style bow right now. I can hit at roughly 72" what would take 76-80" to hit otherwise. Plus, it would be easier for me to find the wood or bamboo necessary since longer staves are harder to find.
At 45 pounds, do I absolutely need horn or will a heavy backing of sinew work? Any resources you guys can point me at will help. I have Karpowicz's book, and follow Peter Dekker's Manchu Archery FB page, and I may still have an ATARN account lying around. Even so, studying is not doing, and I would be very appreciative of any experiences you guys want to share.
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This is a challenging project to come up with a good shooter. Simply scaling up would suggest a bow of heavier draw weight. I would try a light wood like poplar or soft maple. I built a 40" draw poplar bow once but it was too short and took excessive set. At 80" I think you would be fine. As you already know arrows will be a challenge, you will need well over 100# spine measured at 26" centers. Most likely this will require at least a 13/32 shaft. You will have a lot of stored energy so you should be able to tolerate heavier arrows like maybe 650 grains and not sacrifice too much speed, lighter would be better of course but I would look for lighter arrow woods. Some of your straight grained pines might work well here.
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I don't know if you have any interest in hard backings but the bow in this thread here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58509.0.html is 61" long. It's tillered to 28" but I know it would go to 30". If you add 10" to the length I'm sure it would handle at least a 38" draw.
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Mark, I think something like that would work very well, love that design.
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just a question... what kind of reaction did you have to the osage?
from what you said it was quite strong and harmful...
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I was thinking that a lighter wood would work well in this application, but could not reason just why. Maybe just a subjective inkling from building underweight bows? I am glad Steve made this suggestion.
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Badger, I've got some really dense Douglas Fir that spines at 80+ at 23/64 diameter. If I turn him a few real long shafts with those numbers, you think the deflection would be acceptable?
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I would be curious what the doug fir weighs at 3/8, he will need more than 100# spine and weight should be no more than about 500 grains bareshaft.
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The shafts are going to be heavy by themselves so if they are tapered and a light point used then a more reasonable spine could be used
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Pine? If going with wood, Saami bows look slightly like Manchu, I would maybe look into that.. Should shoot faster than the gigantic horn bows with lighter/medium arrows, I think. Especially at a lighter draw...
(https://i.imgur.com/UxERFEs.jpg)
^ Those are from Ivar (Kviljo)
He basically said compression wood from a crooked trunk backed with something like birch, hazel or maple would work well.
Man, I wish I had a lot of free time and ability to just fell pine trees or something. Then I would definitely like to try to make a 80" Saami style bow with a 39" draw length. Wonder if I could draw that long with Kyudo technique.. Hmm, maybe ERC boards could be used instead of pine, like Marc just did!
If you shoot with a high (straight) wrist like Japanese archers, you could maybe try a low (collapsed) wrist like Korean archers do to get a few inches less draw with the same 'anchor'
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My reaction to osage is respiratory distress and unconsciousness. Had to go to hospital, IV steroids and hours on oxygen from cutting and shaping a thumbring from it. My osage bow has a leather handle and is coated in poly and I still get red hands if I'm sweaty when I touch it. I should note that I've got pretty bad lung damage from Marfan so I'm not normal.
These are interesting options. As I understand, there are two ways to effect a long draw-either a longer bow or a design that keeps the string from popping off at that draw length. A yumi is an example of the first, and the Manchu bow the second. Both have their merits. The longer the bow, the simpler the materials can be, but finding good materials that long is always a crapshoot. The other way is a more complex bow, but can be assembled from wood of more manageable lengths. Six of one, a half dozen of another. I'm trying to feel out my options before I go cutting any wood.
I'm hoping to get this out next year to hunt. This is not a weekend project to me. I want to do this right.
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A simple wood and sinew modified "Manchu" could be made to withstand a draw of that length without getting into ridiculous bow length. Especially since your draw weight demands are not great.
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A simple wood and sinew modified "Manchu" could be made to withstand a draw of that length without getting into ridiculous bow length. Especially since your draw weight demands are not great.
What woods are best for sinewing, though? And resistant to chrysalling and breaking?
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Yew, Elm, Red Cedar, HHB.
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i wonder what draw length a sinewed ERC 'saami' shaped bow could take, if it was, say, 68" long? maybe with red oak tips spliced on. wonder if they always had the limbs like an english longbow, all thick and narrow, or if they ever had narrower handles but wider, thinner limbs. but maybe the latter design would allow for more d/l from a shorter overall length?
would ERC give that allergic reaction?
Maybe it could be asymmetric? But then it'd hit roofs and branches more. heck, shooting in my garage i have problems even with a 55" symmetric bow hitting the roof... I have to shoot longer bows sitting down
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loon
the sami used compression pine in the bellies, which does not chrysal easily.
the elb like limbs may have been ok for that belly wood, but if you propose to substitute with another, then design accordingly
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i wonder what draw length a sinewed ERC 'saami' shaped bow could take, if it was, say, 68" long? maybe with red oak tips spliced on. wonder if they always had the limbs like an english longbow, all thick and narrow, or if they ever had narrower handles but wider, thinner limbs. but maybe the latter design would allow for more d/l from a shorter overall length?
would ERC give that allergic reaction?
Maybe it could be asymmetric? But then it'd hit roofs and branches more. heck, shooting in my garage i have problems even with a 55" symmetric bow hitting the roof... I have to shoot longer bows sitting down
If you switch from specifically Saami to "Northern Eurasian" you'll find many bows with that wider limb narrow handle style.
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someone made a sinew backed compression pine bow and it seemed to work pretty well
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Sure but how accessible do you think compression pine etc. are to people not living in the typical areas it is found?
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Could take a Korean design (bamboo/sinew?) and scale it up to maybe 62"?
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I doubt there is that much pressure to achieve the draw length with the shortest bow ever made to reach that draw.
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Ed,
The problem you are facing is the same we all face when trying to make the shortest bow for our draw lengths. The difference as mentioned is that as bow length goes up, the ideal draw weight for best performance also goes up.
I would personally recommend ipe backed with bamboo or hickory.
If you wanna keep it simple as possible, bendy handle 1.25" wide, 76".
If you wanna keep it shorter, you will need reflex and deflex. I build a DR longbow at lengths of 60-68" and I've tested one 66" 65# of that design to 31". I'm sure that at 45# it would handle a lot more. Probably 34" or more. I suspect a DR hickory or bamboo backed ipe can be made for your draw at 70-72" length.
For arrows I would consider 1/2" poplar dowels which come in 48" length. If they are too stiff you could consider 3/8".
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'Poplar" dowels come in 7/16 generally as well.
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If there's any ipe in this state I haven't found it. I'm not averse to trying it, but building a BBI would require buying a lot more than just materials-I don't have near enough clamps and I have a few pounds of hide glue so that's all I use. Fixed income makes this harder than normal.
For arrows, I can always just order 500 4' tonkin stakes for 65 bucks and be set, but I'm working on making my own eventually. Trying to ease back into working on this full time.
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You only need free inner tubes and some glue.
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I'm not averse to trying it
Ed,
If you do consider ipe, be sure to investigate the woods reputation for respiratory reactions.
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Ed, you definately don't need to go with ipe, any reasonable belly wood is fine given the relatively low draw weight. But, being able to glue up a bow with an RD shape will go a long way to getting to the draw length without just building an 80+" bow.
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Yeah, ipe was out on cost alone. Hickory is looking like the winner, as I can heat bend my D/R in and then sinew back it for good measure. That will give me all the room I need-I've made hickory bows that drew 36" before.
Now I just need to locate a good source-it's not sold in the hardware stores around here as boards. The search goes on, but it gets narrower every time.
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Good luck Edward, interesting build. Sometimes I'm glad I'm only 5'5". It does seem to me thought at that weight and a long enough bow the bend should be the same and stress from that weight not that extreme. I would think it's very possible but I'm a short draw guy. Good Luck and I wish you good health too.
Bjrogg
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If you choose to go the longer bow route, I have some very long
yew staves, and some yew heartwood lumber
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Lumberyards. All they sell at the hardware stores I've been at is fir, pine and red oak.. and "poplar" I guess
Wonder how much bamboo backed hickory can be stressed
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This was a bow mike from boarior bows made. It looks like it will get back to wear you want to be.
https ://youtu.be/wS4Et8fxNe4
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I made an unbacked hickory static that is 72" and can be pulled to 36". My goal is definitely possible with whitewoods.
As for yew, I would love a board. Let me know how much and I'll see how I can afford it.
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I made a non-working handle short bow 43" NTN that can draw 26". It has a lot of sinew on the back though and is darn near its limits. Its weaker at 30#. If you were to take those same proportions to your desired draw length of 38" then the bow would be 63" NTN. However, I don't think you would want a bow that week so I would go longer and do a working handle. It's definitely possible to do it in the mid-high 60" range, especially if you make a composite but if you don't want to take the risk I would do 70+".