Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 05:42:01 am

Title: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 05:42:01 am
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_034723_zps6g9sbddr.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_034723_zps6g9sbddr.jpg.html)

I have been trying for a while to make a hunt worthy point. I get something that looks close and snap it in half, where i am not even working on it most the time. I do better with shorter pieces for that reason.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: iowabow on October 06, 2016, 05:53:50 am
I think you are doing a good job at learning to knap. If you do a little more you should be able to extend the length and have a better point for hunting deer. I think you have the skill to make a point more along the lines of 3 to 1 ratio. Your point would be more a style used to take smaller game. This is just my opinion others may have a different point of view.

Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 06:15:24 am
I appreciate the reply. I will just keep on then. My biggest problems are snapping them and thinning them.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: iowabow on October 06, 2016, 07:57:17 am
I appreciate the reply. I will just keep on then. My biggest problems are snapping them and thinning them.
Yep you and everyone that has traveled this path but if you can make that point you are well on your way.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: Redhand on October 06, 2016, 08:33:38 am
I use to snap a lot of points. Eventually I got the feel of how to hold/brace the point with out snapping keep at it.  And soon you will be a point making machine.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: Chippintuff on October 06, 2016, 12:20:40 pm
I see nothing deficient in that point for hunting deer. It looks great to me. The tiny "bird points" have been found at buffalo kill sites. All it takes to kill an animal, big or small, is a cut through something vital. My OPINION is that the size of the point depends more on the size of the bow than on the size of the game.

WA
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: aaron on October 06, 2016, 02:56:30 pm
I have killed only one deer with a stone point. My points are longer . A short point like yours is stronger, but longer has more of an advantage in cutting. Mine are about 1 inch wide, 2 inches long, and as thick as the arrow. Perhaps even more important than that is sharpness and arrow tune. Obsidian makes the sharpest point, but you have to get good at the final sharpening process. You cant really tell from a picture how sharp it is, but the edge should be as straight as possible and with no leftover grinding marks, crumbled sections, or other dull areas. Getting the right spined arrows for the weight of the head will ensure that the arrow is traveling straight into the animal, not with its tail end wagging one way or the other. Only you can decide when you have an ethical combination of gear and technique.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: aaron on October 06, 2016, 03:00:19 pm
Also, with that style of notching, the ears behind the notches need to be just as sharp as the whole blade..especially if they stick out like on yours.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: JW_Halverson on October 06, 2016, 03:07:02 pm
I see nothing deficient in that point for hunting deer. It looks great to me. The tiny "bird points" have been found at buffalo kill sites. All it takes to kill an animal, big or small, is a cut through something vital. My OPINION is that the size of the point depends more on the size of the bow than on the size of the game.

WA

Then again, think about how hard it is to track a 1,500 lb animal that looks and is as big as a VW Beetle on the treeless prairie where it is so flat you can watch your dog run away for three days! 
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:51:22 pm
Thanks guys. Jw, I love that expression.

So, i will make certain the ears are sharp ( they arent ) and i need to get rid of the zig zag pattern on the edge if i understand correctly? Thats how you sharpen them?
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:54:30 pm
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_135308_zps9vmvuowp.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_135308_zps9vmvuowp.jpg.html)

I foind a broken piece of really beatuful tile on the beach when I was in Charleston. I noticed some of the scaring on it and picked it up for later to try and knap. Id give an osage bow for a bucket of this tile. It knapped sooo beautiful for me. I am proud of this point. Hope to get a little red on it that isnt my own sunday :) I feel this one is sharp enough.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:55:02 pm
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_135308_zps9vmvuowp.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_135308_zps9vmvuowp.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:56:10 pm
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_135338_zpsx56gqk1j.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_135338_zpsx56gqk1j.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:56:42 pm
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_135332_zpsjgpirse3.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_135332_zpsjgpirse3.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:57:15 pm
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_135150_zps0yxvzgj4.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_135150_zps0yxvzgj4.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 03:57:45 pm
I really do need to get better at thinning these things though.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: half eye on October 06, 2016, 04:12:05 pm
sleek,
    Seems every time I throw in my two cents....it gets real ugly real quick. Here are photos of the ones I use, they are patterned and sized from actual artifacts of this area. They dont seem any smaller than your example. I've killed several deer with them, one arrow each, and no long trails. The DNR Regional Commander said they are perfectly legal as well.
    The last 2 pictures are artifacts from a dig in OHIO and they are smaller than mine or yours.
I dont consider myself unethical, and would not use them if I thought that they were.....but the final decision is yours to make....get close, shoot well, the head will kill cleanly.
rich
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 04:17:26 pm
Rich, i am always happy to hear ypur opinion. Thanks for the pics. I wish i could nap like you. Those are some amazing looking points.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: aaron on October 06, 2016, 04:30:36 pm
Sleek, keep in mind that if the stem on the green one is narrower than the shaft, any sinew wrapping will not grab the point. Mine are shaped pretty close to that, but with a stem that is a tiny bit wider than the arrow shaft. How do they fly and how does their weight compare to the field points you use?
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: half eye on October 06, 2016, 04:41:23 pm
Sleek,
    The knapping is done by Dan Hamblin (UTAH)...I am lucky enough to be his friend and he knapps them to my specs ( we call them girly points)....Dan is a member here. I also like my heads to be flint/chert and not obsidian, also they are "well ridged" meaning they are not super thin as I believe the point is better supported AND the thicker head "pulls the hide/meat" into the cutting edge and will make the wound bigger than the head is wide.
    I posted a deer kill using a 42" and 42# bow that was gifted me....shot that big doe clean through using a girly point.
rich
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 04:45:07 pm
Thats some interesting logic there Rich. Makes sense.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: Outbackbob48 on October 06, 2016, 06:26:19 pm
Sleek, just make sure when you attach your head that you have a smooth transition from the arrow to the point. Your points will get better with time also. Just my .02 worth, My first point that I killed a deer with was kinda thick and ugly but sharp and flew well. Bob
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: aaron on October 06, 2016, 08:07:59 pm
I also like em thick.like 3/8. .the stem tapers in thickness.  Besides what has been mentioned , it also keeps the weight up, which, for me, helps with tuning. In obsidian, the thickness helps offset the inherent brittleness of the material.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: Zuma on October 06, 2016, 08:10:16 pm
Please, Have a half dozen matched shafts and points ;)
And at least 45# of draw. Most important-- target shoot until
you can hit a pie plate at 30 yards consistently. :o
You won't regret it.  :) I'd be glad to overnight you six points if
you think that would help until you are confident with your own.
You pick up the postage. >:D
Zuma
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 10:23:55 pm
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161006_201045_zpsyfxkmltp.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161006_201045_zpsyfxkmltp.jpg.html)
 

Zuma thats an amazing offer. I am considering it. But i went through and mocro flaked the edge. Look sharp enough now?
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: mullet on October 06, 2016, 10:26:26 pm
I don't see a problem as long as it is scary sharp, and no rough edges that will impede penetration.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 06, 2016, 11:49:40 pm
Well its certainly pointy enough. The edges leave scratches on my fingers when i drag them across, i dont know how much pressure would be needed to draw blood, pushes through paper easy enough.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 07, 2016, 05:24:24 am
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20161007_032722_zps3d8qy7mq.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20161007_032722_zps3d8qy7mq.jpg.html)

Now I have three. I am still on a steep learning curve. Getting a flake to trave right now would be a great thing.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: lebhuntfish on October 07, 2016, 08:43:41 am
Looking better with every one you make bud. Keep at it,  you are leaps and bounds ahead of me for sure.  I know you will get it lined out!

Patrick
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: Redhand on October 07, 2016, 08:44:23 am
Nice points Rich

Sleek those points are looking good. Indirect pressure is like using a punch usually made of antler. You put the antler punch on the plat form you want removed at the right angle you give it a smack and you flake come off. Sounds easy lol. It takes practice.
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: Outbackbob48 on October 07, 2016, 09:23:26 am
Sleek, grind the rear of tang so as to not help in splitting your shaft, also abrade any parts that the hafting touches.  Bob
Title: Re: Is this an ethical point to hunt deer?
Post by: sleek on October 07, 2016, 04:18:00 pm
Got that done. It mounted and the arrow weigjt 456 grains. I was wanting more like 500 but, oh well. The bow I will shoot it from has a fps of 156 with an arrow weighting 571 grains. Will this be enough speed and momentum to do the job?