Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Parnell on September 14, 2016, 10:01:07 am
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You all see this story in the news?
https://www.rt.com/usa/359135-blm-shoots-horses-dont-they/ (https://www.rt.com/usa/359135-blm-shoots-horses-dont-they/)
45,000 horses on federal land to be destroyed for what I'm reading as "making room for cattle"?
I'm hoping there are some educated points of view on this that will enlighten me, because I'm not getting it...
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Here in Utah the herds go unchecked. They did do roundups and sell off some of the horses for a time, but it has stopped. Fro a while they were sending them to the prison, the prisoners in Gunneson were able to train them and then the state sold them. They have looked into sterilizing some of the horses to reduce the numbers, but there isn't any money to do it.
http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/prog/wild_horse_and_burro.html (http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/prog/wild_horse_and_burro.html)
Also, the estimated number of wild horses in the US is only 33,000
http://theweek.com/articles/460722/american-west-being-overrun-by-wild-horses (http://theweek.com/articles/460722/american-west-being-overrun-by-wild-horses)
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It all comes down to money. It says they spent 45 million to hold and care for them last year. I'm sure the cattle ranchers are willing to pay to lease the grazing land. What doesn't make sense is the part of the article that says the horses are damaging the earth with their hooves. The cattle that will be brought in will do the exact same thing.
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It's all just another case of a governmental con job there is no need to put them down, they really don't want to lease the land to ranchers. Just going to be a land grab in the name of environmental issues
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Amen to that bubby.
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The logical solution would be to put buffalo in there and phase out some of the horses. As for money, our government has money to do anything they want to do. Their cup knows no bounds.
WA
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at least process them and send them to food banks....
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I'm not sure where the Article you linked got it's information. The BLM stats are all laid out, and the total wild population as of 2015 is 67,000, and the total captured population is 44,580. It doesn't make much sense to me to keep paying to house these animals. They wouldn't be killed to make room for cattle, they have already been removed to make room for cattle. The damage is done. So, Either start eating Horse meat, Raise your own cows, or this is what you get.
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/quick_facts.html (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/quick_facts.html)
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at least process them and send them to food banks....
There is a big market in Europe for horse meat.
I bet there would be a big boo-ho from the American people
if the meat was sold.
Zuma
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What do they do with the carcasses, pet food???
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at least process them and send them to food banks....
There is a big market in Europe for horse meat.
I bet there would be a big boo-ho from the American people
if the meat was sold.
Zuma
Sadly it is acceptable to kill animals that can't find homes in a shelter setting if they are dogs or cats, but not horses. I'm willing to bet once people got passed the "Horse meat" mentality, they would eat it as readily as beef, or lamb, or any other meat deemed ok to eat.
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I remember when I was a kid there was a small shop in Vancouver BC that only sold horse meat only. My Dad said it was for Europeans(well, he didn't say Europeans but I have to be politically correct))
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Horse ,cow, deer, pig, goat ... I don't get it....
What's the beef with eating horse? ;) The French manage it ok... mind they also eat snails ::)
Del
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Hold your horses!! We may need them for transportation and companionship when the gas money runs out.
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Boy that would be some great sinew
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Horse ,cow, deer, pig, goat ... I don't get it....
What's the beef with eating horse? ;) The French manage it ok... mind they also eat snails ::)
Del
And for all you neigh-sayers, I have eaten horse on several occasions and it is fine food. My "beef" is the same I have with any and all commercially processed meats, has the animal been humanely treated and killed? Sadly, many processors do not want to be saddled with the responsibility of simple respect for the animal.
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The meat is good. I ate it in Europe and South America. And what they are doing now is no different then what I saw in the 70's in Wyoming around Rock Springs and Green River. BLM was rounding them up them and the majority went to dog food factories.
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I just got done reading a book on the Lewis and Clark expedition. While crossing the Bitterroot Mountains on the way to the Pacific they had no idea how long it was going to take and how poor the hunting would be and had to eat their horses. They barely made it. On the way back, they planned ahead and bought extra horses from the Nez Perce to slaughter along the way. The Nez Perce were appalled. Horses were wealth and status to them, so it would be like watching someone using a wad of cash as toilet paper.
Which reminds me of my wife's favorite joke. Two guys went camping but forgot the toilet paper. One guy really had to go so his buddy tells him, "just use a dollar." So he goes off and does his business but comes back with his hand covered in crap. "Why didn't you use the dollar?" "I did!" Three quarters, two dimes and a nickel."
The wild horse thing is a political mine field. No matter what they do they will end with crap all over their hands. Best to just leave them alone and let nature sort it out.
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Mullet,
Pre 70's you would be correct,but after 74 it would not and especially not by the BLM.
I have been involved with this issue,from all angles for the majority of my life.If you folks just want to vent and discuss possible senarios or judgments from a political or special interest point of view,then have at it,but if you want the facts and an unbiased view,from someone who has been raised with it and had family involved with it,since the turn of the last century,then ill be happy to take the time and deliver a simple solution,that i have recomended,for at least 30 years,that not many seem to want to hear.Seems its all or nothing for all sides concerned.
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I would suggest they use them just like the deer in the "Hunters Feeding The Hungry" program. I don't see anyone protesting all the tens of thousands of deer that go to soup kitchens.
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Actually Eric...
There are those that protest deer killing for soup kitchens.Can you imagine it with the American stigma,attached to the horse.
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We need to clone up some Paleo hunters.
Case closed >:D
Zuma
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Actually Eric...
There are those that protest deer killing for soup kitchens.Can you imagine it with the American stigma,attached to the horse.
There are people that protest everything. I think us people that don't protest should start protesting all those that protest every little thing that comes along. Or something like that ;) ;) ;)
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Ok traxx i am all ears i would like to hear your solution
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From my point of view, they are an invasive species that causes damage to the environment and reduces the viability of native species in their own environment. They are just a prettier version of the wild hogs wrecking Texas and other states.
How's that for stirring the pot?
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I kinda agree with you JW. If you can't eat them or capture them for personal use, they're not of much use. Especially since they are a feral animal.
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Here are the facts concerning "Wild" horses in the Western states,that many,especially those in "Protection groups dont want you to know,even though its documented fact.
Dont get me wrong,im not a anti wild horse advocate,but i think they need to be managed as every other animal on public or private range should be.
First and foremost.....
By all rights,there shouldnt be any free roaming wild horse or Burros on public range today,PERIOD.
It is another case of federal incompetence once again and had they done their job,based on the laws they passed and expected others to follow,it wouldnt be the issue,it is today.
In 1937 the Taylor grazing act was passed by congress.This law ended open range free grazing.All range land was sectioned off into grazing allotments and issued to applicants for grazing rights.All animals within private ownership,were to be removed by 1939,or considered feral and under the ownership of the federal govt.ALL and i repeat ALL animals on Federal land at this time,were owned by someone at some point in time.Some were under current ownership and some had been abandoned by owners who had either passed and family had not claimed them or the ranches had gone out of business and these animals had not been branded and or claimed.Some of the feral equine,belonged to the Govt as Remount breeding stock,and were under management by civilian contractors .In all cases it was under the Jurisdiction of the Govt,to remove all un gathered and unclaimed animals after 1939.For several years up into the 40's the Federal Govt did remove many by several different methods and did keep the animals in check,for the most part.throughout the years from the 40's through the early 70's it was common practice for the feds to ignore and look the other way,if civilians wanted to gather these animals and relieve the Feds of the responsibility.After the Wild horse and burro act was inacted,due to lobby by velma Johnson aka wild horse annie,the horses had full protection from the public and also subject to legal red tape and battles,concerning their managment,resulting in the mess it has become today.Velma even admitted on her death bed,that she may have gone about things wrong and created a monster.
There were NO animals that were remnants of Spanish herds or prehistoric herds left in existence at this time,regardless of what some would have you believe.All feral horses in existence in the western states can be identified in their herd management areas,back to their owners of origin.The horses closest in genetic makeup to the Spanish barb horses,is within the Kiger Herd in Oregon and that is a distant match,brought into the country at a later date.Any horses,in Native Herd that may have carried some of this genetic makeup were eradicated or bred out by the late 1800s.
So....
Basically,if it were not for those livestock grazers,that activist claim are stealing the range from the horses,there wouldnt be any horses,for them to "Steal" it from.They are predominately descendants from those ranchers herds.These same ranchers that not only pay grazing fees,but also pay for and provide range improvements, that not only benefit their livestock but wildlife and yes,even feral horses,on top of the same taxes that others pay.that.Of all the animals on the public range,the Feral horses and burros,actually have the least right to be there,and in fact,due to mis management,are the most damaging to the public range and riparian areas.This is due,lack of monitoring and rotation of their use and how they physically graze and utilize water holes.
But,the numbers have increased through the years to a level,that something must be done and done in a more effective manner.With the stigma of the "Wild Mustang" that has been presented to the public in later years by advocacy groups with their celebrity spokes people and hollywood movie portrayals,the idea of total eradication,will never fly so....
I have proposed on severall ocasions a way that will compromise all involved if they would allow it.Its really very simple.
Sanctuaries.
They could set up sanctuary HMA's that allow some to roam freely and allow the public to view them in that state and limit the amount of numbers on other ranges that are in competition for grazing.This would still be under federal jurisdiction and managment,but at a much smaller scale and therefore more efficient and at a lower cost to the tax payer.There would have to be some sacrifice by all parties involved,but that must be accepted to compromise for the best for all.
Unfortunately,most are not willing to compromise.I will say though,that there seems to be more willing acceptance,from the livestock production side,than the horse advocacy side.
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Also...
I wanted to adress a previous comment.
Best to just leave them alone and let nature sort it out.
That would,eventually work in managing the horse numbers,but would also effect others within the multiple use spectrum and would result in eradication of other species and usage to the point of no return.
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Here's a pretty decent article with lots of detail and seems fairly neutral.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2016/09/16/the-government-is-not-going-to-kill-45000-wild-horses-not-yet-anyway/
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I got a friend with a couple Kiger mustangs. Sure footed, quick stepping, hell-and-gone smart cowponies, flint-hooved and shoeless, and more than just a little intolerant of a less than skilled rider! And absolutely willing to debase and humiliate themselves for a little Pizza Hut peppermint!!!
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Yeah....
The popularity of the Kiger horses,skyrocketed,when Bobby Ingersol,took one to the Snaffle bit futurity and beat out,most of the bred up quarter horses.
The First time i ever saw or heard of T Boone or Madeline Pickens was at a BLM auction,Where T boone bid and won a kiger for his then wife Madeline,for a sum of $25.000.
She is now the self appointed,bought and paid for,queen caped crusader of the Mustang protection cause,yet several were found dead recently from lack of water on her private sanctuary.
She tried to make it out to be a case of outside sabotage,in the media and to the uneducated public,but one look at the evidence by anyone with any horse sense,told a completely different story.
Coincidentally and of interest to many on the site is this....
Feral horses are extremely territorial and protective of a water source.They will not only run other livestock off of a source,but wildlife as well.I have witnessed it many times.
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I find it odd when most of the people that battle the loudest FOR the feral horses that have usurped and destroyed habitat for the local native species are the same people that rail AGAINST the European treatment of Native Americans.
Granted, I am beginning to stray into politics at this point, so I will stop.
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Also...
I wanted to adress a previous comment.
Best to just leave them alone and let nature sort it out.
That would,eventually work in managing the horse numbers,but would also effect others within the multiple use spectrum and would result in eradication of other species and usage to the point of no return.
I understand where you're coming from. I got my wildlife degree in the early 90's and that type of thinking was pretty well drummed into my head as dogma. Since then, some historical perspective and observations of the bigger picture leads me to believe it's a bit overblown. It seems to me that wildlife habitat cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. Nature is extraordinarily resilient and adaptable. Look at some of the huge changes we've made to the landscape in the past few centuries that by classical thinking in wildlife biology should have been utterly catastrophic: We completely eliminated the alpha predator, wolves, from vast areas. We completely changed the wetland ecology of at least half of what is now the United States by the near extinction of the beaver. In the blink of an eye megatons of highly nutritious wildlife food were lost with the chestnut blight. And what happened? Not much. Nature finds a way.
The population of feral horses is a drop in the bucket compared to all the other non-native animals we have inflicted upon the ecosystem: European Starlings, House Sparrows, pigeons, nutria, black rats, Norway rats, house mice, pythons, feral hogs, feral cats, all of which are considered bad for the environment while all indications are that the environment doesn't really care one way or the other.
The creek bottom down below me is choked with Chinese privet, an invasive, non-native weed. The classically trained wildlife biologist in me hates the privet. The naturalist in me can't help but notice that the beavers love it and that it grows back faster after cutting than any native plant. In the middle of May it blooms with a nectar rich flower which the local bees and butterflies flock too, with no qualms about it being not supposed to grow there. The flowers form a blue berry that hangs in clumps all winter long to feed the birds, the leaves are evergreen providing shelter and cover and the dense stands make lovely places to hide a nest. Which makes me wonder what is so bad about it?
So I think if the horses are left alone, while there will be some bad short term changes, sooner than you would think everything will come back into balance, and the upshot will be not much of anything. Regardless, this is a political hot potato ten times worse than the wolf reintroduction (an utterly epic mess!) so I don't know that there's much else to be done.
Keith
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Near me Is CFB Suffeid.. Long story short.. They had about 400 ''Wild horses'' Mostly old nags released on the base.. They were doing damage to the prairie.. So round'em up sell'em off.. Let's reintroduce elk which have'nt been here for over 125 years... Let's get 700.. Fast forward to today 12,000 elk for the last 3 years they have a managment cull hunts.. There's no easy answer to these problems.. Leave well enough alone.. Rant over
Thanks Leroy
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People keep saying the animals are destroying the prarie. Well, are they? The ground is there to support the life, id it being destroyed when life takes from it, or is it just being used to its purpose? Elk, bison, all grass feeding animals do the same. What's the difference?
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Traxx; I was there in 77 and 78, and watched the round ups around Irish Canyon and read the stories in the Rock Springs newspaper about the Adoption Program. Whether it was true or not , the talk was the leftovers from the Adoptions were disposed of.
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Sleek,
The difference,is in the way horses graze,compared to wild ungulates.Horses have an upper and lower teeth system,that enable them to graze the grasses closer to the root system and often they pull it up completely while grazing.Because the horses are not rotated and removed from the range,like other domestic livestock,the horses will completely overgraze an area before moving on to fresh graze.
Also,concerning riparian areas,Domestic livestock,such as sheep and cattle prefer to drink without getting in to a water area,if they can avoid it.Horses,on the other hand,prefer to get at least their front hooves in to the water,to obtain moisture to their hooves for hoof health.
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Mullet....
In 77-78,there was no restrictions on the age a horse could be adopted,as there is today.If there were animals disposed of,it was due to illness or injury,that would prevent them from qualifying for the adoption process.
One of the criteria in the adoption process is,that an adopter must have the horse in their care,with periodic compliance checks,for 1 year,before they can obtain title to that animal.This prevents people from adopting the horses to sell for slaughter,as having them for a year,would negate any profit they could make on these animals in that capacity.Sale yards and slaughter houses,when they could legally operate in this country,wouldnt touch a adopted horse,without attached title for fear of federal prosecution,but that doesnt stop the activist,from voicing such propaganda to further their support.they use the media for this,constantly.
I am authorized to do compliance checks and sign titles,for ownership and have done hundreds of them,in the last 30 some years.
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Thank you, I'm always happy to hearing the real, truth.
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/09/16/blm-we-do-not-and-not-euthanize-wild-horses/90527106/
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You see what i mean about activist groups,using the media?
Ive seen it done,countless times and even been a victim of it personally.
Way too many uneducated and less than honorable,caped crusaders out there,these days.
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Don't forget "The Misfits"
Last flick for both Gable
and Monroe, I think.
Zuma
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Zuma....
I shoe horses,for the woman who owns the house from the movie.It still looks exactly the same.She calls it quail run ranch now.
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Zuma....
I shoe horses,for the woman who owns the house from the movie.It still looks exactly the same.She calls it quail run ranch now.
Wow! Way cool 8)
Thanks for posting all your info and knowledge.
Very interesting to a kid that grew up on Gene Autry
and Hopalong Cassidy. :laugh:
Zuma