Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: OldBow on March 02, 2008, 08:32:27 pm
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yankeemongiat - "So Don....are we going to start considering all Bows that are backed with Sinew and Rawhide and Fabric ....as Backed Bows??? I believe that they should be....since they are not a true Selfbow....what is everyone Else's thoughts on this???
OldBow- I have always considered that the Traditional Bowyer's Bible I described how one makes a self bow. In it is described various non-wood backings such as sinew or rawhide. So, I'm sticking with the Bible. A self bow can be backed but not laminated.
yankeemongiat- Buckwheat says.....OOOTAY!!!! :o
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I'm still a newbie so i don't know if my opinion on this is just.
but i feel as long as it is one piece of wood for the length of the bow excluding tip overlays and riser blocks or natural backings such as sinew or rawhide that its a self bow.
PEACE,
Tim
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A selfbow is one piece of wood or 2 spliced at the handle. A backed bow is a backed bow. It cannot be a selfbow because it consists of more than one material. I don't have a problem with however the contest is set up but a selfbow is a selfbow. :) Jawge
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Don: I like your system - if it's hard backed it's laminated, if it's some stretchy natural material it's a selfbow, albeit backed. Hmm, now I'm second guessing myself. Anyway, you gotta draw the line somewhere - is it laminated or not??
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A selfbow is one piece of wood or 2 spliced at the handle. A backed bow is a backed bow. It cannot be a selfbow because it consists of more than one material. I don't have a problem with however the contest is set up but a selfbow is a selfbow. :) Jawge
Like Jawge said...........bob
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if it went that way then putting a snake skin on for decoration would be considered backed bow
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A selfbow is one piece of wood or 2 spliced at the handle. A backed bow is a backed bow. It cannot be a selfbow because it consists of more than one material. I don't have a problem with however the contest is set up but a selfbow is a selfbow. :) Jawge
Thats what I was getting at Jawge.....but I will play by the Rules set......even though my Wife says that I dont play well with others!!!
And Kayakfisher....a Snake Skin does nothing for the Back of a Bow...Rawhide and Sinew do...so Hence no Backing....just Decoration...
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Any bow that you made yourself ;D
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Don, Personally I believe a self bow should be a bow with no protective backing. Whether it be wood,glass :o, rawhide, sinew or silk,etc. Anything that makes up for the poor quality of the wood or craftsmanship of the bow. When you start bending curves in wooden bows without breaking or lifting splinters, I think this shows real skill. When you have to back it to do it, well...., that's a whole different story.
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Don, Personally I believe a self bow should be a bow with no protective backing. Whether it be wood,glass :o, rawhide, sinew or silk,etc. Anything that makes up for the poor quality of the wood or craftsmanship of the bow. When you start bending curves in wooden bows without breaking or lifting splinters, I think this shows real skill. When you have to back it to do it, well...., that's a whole different story.
Well I somewhat agree but there are some designs that you can not make without a backing like those short highly recurved sinew backed bows. Its not a lack of skill its necessary for the design. but I do agree that if its working to hold the bow together like sinew or rawhide it is backed. Jesse
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Maybe there should be a category for a natural materials bow in which all parts are not man made you could use any backing you want as long as its natural materials applied with glue made from natural materials like hide or fish glue. I think it should include non working parts, tip overlays, and finishes also. Just a thought. :) Jesse
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I have to disagree, Jesse. RyanO, Marc St. Louis, Keenan to name a few, have made some really short recurved bows without any backing. And if it's necessary for the design, It means it wouldn't hold up without backing it.
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Probably stretching it a bit, but maybe three categories. One laminated, one self, and one composiite - backed with only pure natural parts like - sinew, hide or bark? Personally, I like it the way it is - simple..
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My personal definition of a selfbow would be a bow backed with nothing except air, except I would consider a bow of otherwise one piece of wood with a decorative non-functioning backing like snakeskin to be a selfbow. For the purposes of our contest, though, I see no reason to fix what ain't broke. It's already a lot of work for Don. At some point you can get so technical that it's just too much trouble to deal with. I think it works fine to have sinew, rawhide, or other non-wood backed bows in with the selfbows, and a seperate category for the wood and other hard laminated bows.
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I like it the way it is...stave based or board based(with wood to wood glue joints) Seems like yall are jus knit pickin to me...
dan
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Like Steve and Paul said, It's simpler like it is. But personally it's the difference I look at in a bow
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For the sake of a contest I like it the way it is. If it were a flight shoot or some kind of contest regarding performance I would want to see it more to the letter but it is what it is and it seems to work fine. Steve
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You are right I was knit picking but just for conversation I really dont care as long as the no fiberglass rule stays. I like that one ;D I dont want to make it harder on anyone
Mullet-- I have not made a sinew backed bow yet. I was just saying I think sometimes its used as necessity not to make up for lack of skill. example if all I had was birch and I needed a short high performance recurve I might use sinew because it would be a better bow. Not saying it cant be done without. :) I do see your point though. its all good :D Jesse
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I think the rules are ok.
A soft backed bow from one piece(rawhide, hemp, sinew, silk,...) is right in as a selfbow.
A hard backed bow or a bow with several laminatons (hick, bo,....) is a backed bow.
Go on Don.
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for the sake of the competition keep the rules (we should have done a poll) it was said before, why fix what ain't broke
now as far as definition goes, thin air is the only backing for a selfbow in my oppinion. you could stretch it even further: if rawhide is a backing because it protects the back from raising splinters, then a wrapping performing the same function should be considered a backing too, so where do you draw the line?
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well, since january the name's been changed to from 'backed bow' to 'laminatd bow'; i thought it was to clarify this point?!
frank
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Well,....Backed is backed. Self....backed...lam'ed. Just my 2 cents (Might be a penny short) Frank
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self bow can't be backed with that changes the bows performance. sinew completely changes the bows performance. but snake skins etc are fine.
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I'm okay with it the way the competition currently is...no use making it more complicated and with added work.
I'm presently making a bow that had a couple of large worm holes through it. One of them is going at an angle through the center of the upper limb in a bending portion. Wouldn't be a candidate for a wood plug due to the size of the hole and angular track that little devil chewed in. :) We also plugged the hole itself with tb3 and osage dust mixture. For that reason I'm backing the bow with rawhide as insurance against it breaking. Otherwise CastIron was going to cook brats with it, and I couldn't let that happen. ;D
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Greg, on worm holes through the side of the bow there is a mixture of epoxy and glass dust that works pretty wll for filling them ( not primitive but at the price of staves today it beats throwing them away or breaking them, Steve
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George said: It cannot be a selfbow because it consists of more than one material.
Hmmmmm....what about different materials like paint? Waterproofing (like pine pitch)? Finish coats (like tallow or beeswax)? Bark left on? Mica mixed with hide glue for that "glitter" effect? George's definition seems to define a "naked" bow....kinda like "naked" furniture.
I always thought a self bow was a single (not spliced/hinged/takedown) piece of wood with either it's bark on or off, and with painted or rubbed-on decorations, stains and/or finish coat(s). The same definition applies to self arrows. And since snakeskin is not painted or rubbed-on....the bow should be considered backed.
The Penobscot bow might be an exception but I don't think it's a self bow because it's not a single piece of wood....even though the two pieces might have been cut from the same stave.
A self bow could also be made of a non-wood material such as a single piece of bone or horn.
>:D (Just doin' my part to beat this topic to death)
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Well you know what I mean. :) Jawge
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when i first time came here i was surprised to see (sinew-)backed bows to be NOT in the backed bow category; than i thought'well that's probably the way it's'! --- and i'm totally fine with it ever since.
frank
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Experiment breaking them up into different categories when convenient based upon the submissions when the numbers get too high to make an easy vote.
If only 10, lax rules for self bows.
If 30 break it into self bows and backed bows, or what the submission fits into simple lots.
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One option would be to keep it the way it is and rename the categories "laminated" and "non-laminated"
Dave
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I say ya all have too much time on yer hands and just leave it alone. Its Don's show so he gets to make the rules up ;D
Technically the words "self bow" implies that any bow made by ones self is a selfbow. So that could be Fiberglass with a CNC machined riser
if ya do it yer self ::) We could have 10 or 12 categories the we all could win :P
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Even if 34 is too many for me to vote on, it is so cool that that many people, and more, are cranking out quality bows.
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If some of the 37 bowyers are discouraged this month, then there won't be so many next month ;) Anyway, Turkey Season is about to kick into gear, the snow is melting, and the birds are chirping. More people will have something to do besides build bows and pester Momma. ;D
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Eddie I'm not discourged, I post my bows for fun, winning doesn't matter. After all if ya win BOM
its not like ya get a parade in yer honor and become rich and famous ;) :P
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Eddie I'm not discourged, I post my bows for fun, winning doesn't matter. After all if ya win BOM
its not like ya get a parade in yer honor and become rich and famous ;) :P
.........YA DONT .................DANG ! ;D..bob
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Think yer right Eddie - huntin season's been over for awhile now but has still been ice locked in a lot of places. What else to do but build bows and dream about huntin ;D? It'll prolly taper off - turkey season, fishing 8), spring cleaning >:D.
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Its Don's show so he gets to make the rules up
Its not my show. I'm just a secretary here.
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Its Don's show so he gets to make the rules up
Its not my show. I'm just a secretary here.
Ho........."You Da Man".........Don....aint nobody arguing that one..we just like to argue and puff up like a Cock Rooster some times!!!
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And the beat goes ON and ON ! zzzzzzzzzzzz !!!! ;D ;D ;D......bob
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For the record, a self bow isn't named such because you build it yourself. The correct definition of "self' is:
"being of one piece with, or the same material as the rest: drapes with a self lining." from Dictionary.com, definition 6.
Jawge is right about the definition of selfbow. Regardless of how people want to define their contest, it doesn't change the meaning of the term.
Personally I'd rather see sinewed bows lumped with other laminated bows, simply so we can have a true selfbow as well as a sinewed bow winning. I'd always vote for the more primitive style/construction of bow because after all this is Primitive Archer.
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Here are my thoughts: Technically, I agree with Jawge on the definition, but understand and agree with the definition used for the purpose of the BOM competition. It doesn't make much difference what you call them to me, I make the bow the wood tells me to make, and without regard to rather or not it need/has sinew, rawhide, or snakeskin, backing and still call it a selfbow. As a side note regarding backing with a snakeskin, I use python skins (when I can get them) in place or rawhide because it is thicker then my antelope rawhide and looks better. I donate or give most of my bows away and have started backing most of them with python, antelope rawhide covered with a snakeskin, or sinew covered with a snakeskin, for liability reasons. I haven't had any break, but want some legal protection just in case. Just a thought, I never post my bows because I have no desire to enter a competition: Can we post them without having them automatically entered in the BOM competition?
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You bring up one of my arguements Slivershooter I think quite a few people don't post bows because they
don't want to participate in BOM. As a result we all lose by not seeing them. I think its perfectly acceptable
to post a bow with a disclaimer stating "Not For BOM" or just post em and don't worry about it.
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Slivershooter, sure-just put "not for BOM" or something like that in the subject line. We love to see pics of everyone's work (and learn from them), please don't refrain from posting your work because of a contest.
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Yes, please, lets see those bows!
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Can we post them without having them automatically entered in the BOM competition?
Absolutely! And a heads up with your post is appreciated.
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Post your bows Walt - we wanna see em ;D.