Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: loon on August 27, 2016, 07:31:55 pm

Title: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 27, 2016, 07:31:55 pm
Just got one from Lowe's for $12, cut it to 75", 2.5" wide. Grain seems fairly straight to me though it's a tad wavy.

I'm not sure of what design I want to do (one of pyramid, D bow, mollegabet), which draw weight from 30 - 45#, or if I want 28" or 32" of draw.

dunno what length.. I suppose I want to do a longer bow, so from 68" - 75"? I have some kind of hesitance to make a longer bow with less than 32" of draw though. So I guess I'll do 75" with 32"-33" draw.. thought of giving it away or selling it but maybe not, I could keep it as my first bow. so full length

75" Pyramid ~2.5" to 1/4" tips, 5" long handle 1" fades, 2.5" asymmetric (1 bending limb 31.5 the other 36.5?)

or same thing mollegabet, levers + lever fades same length as bending limb

or same thing D bow but limbs up to 1.5".. or 2" wide? Handle narrows to 1"? the board is .75" thick i think

Pictures later..
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: DesertDisciple on August 27, 2016, 08:35:23 pm
Loon, how tall are you? Are you planning to draw to the ear?
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: Dictionary on August 27, 2016, 09:35:38 pm
Lol we can't decide your draw weight and draw length. Figure that out then tailor that to your design.the safest and easiest design that I, and Tim Baker for that matter, recommend is make the bow as tall as you and make the handle the widest part of the bow, adjusting the width to be comfortable in the hand. Then taper from midlimb to the tips. Handle can either be stiff or flex slightly at full draw depending on how you tiller it. It should be tapered into the limbs to avoid the need for long fades.

This is a simple design good up to high draw weights and draw lengths with just about any decent bow wood.. It is illustrated in TTBB vol 1. You have to decide what you want though. No one else can.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 27, 2016, 11:16:04 pm
Hahaha thanks Dictionary, I'll try to look at it..

Loon, how tall are you? Are you planning to draw to the ear?
6'1"

57#@33"
(https://s3.postimg.io/rowskjxwz/13912849_10207212273721037_6081392546104480377_n.jpg)

42-44#@32" hickory flatbow from ringing rocks
(https://s21.postimg.io/6x3t63zwn/13892019_10207235427099857_3728019057426627009_n.jpg)

yeah, not bending the bow arm is hard

What worries me about this technique is that it may be significantly less suitable for hunting than a shorter draw??.. (more movement) and it tends to annoy normie range coach people. "blah blah you're gonna rip your ear off"
I can also draw ~28" to the side of my jaw of course..
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on August 27, 2016, 11:39:46 pm
With a thumb ring i think you get a couple inches more draw length, red oak i would go at a minimum 72" ntn, basic twice the draw length and 8" for the riser, layout is up to you
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 28, 2016, 06:00:28 pm
76" x 2 1/2" x 3/4"

There's a bit of a lengthwise crack in one side.. and vise teeth marks

Would it be less likely to break with a pyramid or D bow (handle width 1 1/8") style? I'll go for 35#@32"



(https://s25.postimg.org/9ifq1gt2z/CIMG0307.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9ifq1gt2z/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/dsudx1y63/CIMG0308.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dsudx1y63/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/f9ahsxqgr/CIMG0309.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/f9ahsxqgr/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/lbi4jfewr/CIMG0310.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/lbi4jfewr/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/ojmlwh16j/CIMG0312.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ojmlwh16j/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/a1peoh9vf/CIMG0313.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/a1peoh9vf/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/om6hjb4u3/CIMG0314.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/om6hjb4u3/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/kebpak3ej/CIMG0315.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/kebpak3ej/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/80yv3ndq3/CIMG0316.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/80yv3ndq3/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/l6ed9r7ln/CIMG0317.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/l6ed9r7ln/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/iqcjvwpiz/CIMG0319.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/iqcjvwpiz/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/ayvtxcldn/CIMG0320.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ayvtxcldn/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/6r5n2c9bv/CIMG0321.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6r5n2c9bv/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/c3uhggx8b/CIMG0322.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/c3uhggx8b/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/ssvxcdttn/CIMG0323.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ssvxcdttn/)

(https://s25.postimg.org/6i82cewjf/CIMG0324.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6i82cewjf/)
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: Eric Garza on August 28, 2016, 07:39:07 pm
I don't think I'd use that board to make a bow unless you back it. What do you have to back it with?
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: DC on August 28, 2016, 08:10:53 pm
If you don't mind Eric, what do you see that you don't like? I have never made a board bow and have no idea what to look for.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on August 28, 2016, 08:16:32 pm
Are the vice marks on both sides if not make that the belly and fill the crack with good super glue
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: George Tsoukalas on August 28, 2016, 09:30:26 pm
It seems to have ok grain for a light bow.
Eric, what don't you like?
Jawge
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 28, 2016, 10:12:20 pm
I was thinking of backing it with 1 layer of paper & hide glue, maybe some thread wrapping in the more sketchy areas

I am wondering if a 2.5" wide pyramid or a 1.25" wide D bow would be more durable.. I don't want too wide of a handle. On the one hand I'd have the extra width and on the other I'd have a bending handle, so not sure what would strain the wood less

Would 3/4" thickness be enough for a 76" D bow at 35#?..

thanks
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 29, 2016, 04:09:31 am
Is 0.75" thickness, 1 3/16 wide  enough at the handle for a very long "stiff handled" D bow? again 35#@32" 76" long

if so I'll go for no 'riser' with as stiff a handle as I can. if not I'll glue on a handle/riser block and make a really long pyramid bow.

thanks

Lol we can't decide your draw weight and draw length. Figure that out then tailor that to your design.the safest and easiest design that I, and Tim Baker for that matter, recommend is make the bow as tall as you and make the handle the widest part of the bow, adjusting the width to be comfortable in the hand. Then taper from midlimb to the tips. Handle can either be stiff or flex slightly at full draw depending on how you tiller it. It should be tapered into the limbs to avoid the need for long fades.

This is a simple design good up to high draw weights and draw lengths with just about any decent bow wood.. It is illustrated in TTBB vol 1. You have to decide what you want though. No one else can.

What do you mean by tapered into the limbs? Narrowed handle? Or bow is narrower in the center than mid-limb and very slowly increases in width?

Also, how thick was your 71+" D bow in the handle?

It'll take me a while until I can get TBB.. think I'll just go with volumes 1 and 2
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on August 29, 2016, 10:26:50 am
Loon he is saying leave the limbs parallel to mid limb and then make a straight pyramid type taper to the tips so at the fades if you are 2-1/2" wide there stay that wide to mid limb, half the distance from fade to tip, then taper to 1/2" tip
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: willie on August 29, 2016, 01:16:36 pm
Loon

not all lumber is created equal, and in spite of the nice grain on this board, there is a distinct possibility that you found it at the discount supplier for a reason that cannot be seen in the pics or easily ascertained. Of course this does not mean that the board will not make a bow, just how "much"  of a bow is the question.
I would go for a design that does not push the strain too far in any portion of the limb. Keeping it long and minimizing the stiffer handle and tip sections, especially if you begin to see set as you are tillering.


willie
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 29, 2016, 02:26:23 pm
2 1/2" is way too wide for me at the handle, though... if I'm making a D bow I'm not gonna make it more than 1 1/2" wide

I guess 3/4" is too thin for the handle, and this will have to be a pyramid or flat bow. in Tim Baker's tutorial which I just found he makes the bow be 7/8" thick at the handle... I'll go with pyramid

If I had a good piece of hickory I'd probably go for maybe 50lbs or even 70lbs. I hope 35# isn't asking too much :P

thanks
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on August 29, 2016, 03:28:02 pm
You we 're saying 2-1/2" at the fades with a stiff handle you can easily have a 1" wide grip the bow wouldn't be 2-1/2" though the handle area
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on August 29, 2016, 03:29:38 pm
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 29, 2016, 03:30:58 pm
yeah I'll just go with that and not a D bow

just found out Tim Baker's tutorial design is a bit of a D bow with a narrowed handle that may bend slightly, which i would consider w/ a thicker board

edit: Nah, Jawge has a tutorial of a D bow with a 3/4" thickness. I'll go with a long D bow w/ slightly narrowed handle :p
If it bends too much I guess I'll glue a handle block and wrap it or something.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: Eric Garza on August 29, 2016, 03:36:48 pm
If you don't mind Eric, what do you see that you don't like? I have never made a board bow and have no idea what to look for.

I see grain runoff. I've found red oak to be finicky as a board. It needs to be just perfect for me to use it.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: DC on August 29, 2016, 04:00:17 pm
Thanks
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 29, 2016, 06:07:38 pm
Thanks

welp... if it breaks, I can uh... yeah... maybe make a tool handle or something.

Fine I'll go with 30#, taper to 3/8" tips. I have work so progress will be slow :\
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: Pago on August 31, 2016, 11:28:39 pm
From what I can see that board is neither flat sawn or rift sawn and has multiple runoffs and change in direction of grain from one side to the other.  I hate to be negative but using that board you will start at a distinct disadvantage IMHO.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on August 31, 2016, 11:37:52 pm
sigh, grain looked straight enough but I figured I didn't know something
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: Dictionary on September 01, 2016, 07:41:18 am
I'd still use it. I've made a few board bows with awful grain backed with a layer or two of silk or linen that are still shooting just fine. Just make it long and bend throughout its length, and don't make it over 50# of draw. Handle doesn't have to be the widest part. You can leave limbs full width and  narrow the handle towards the end of tillering until it flexes a little at full draw or just leave it stiff and build it up with some leather. Options are limitless. I'd just overbuild it in length a bit it to insure it doesn't fail in tension or compression.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: Pago on September 01, 2016, 02:17:48 pm
sigh, grain looked straight enough but I figured I didn't know something

I had a very difficult time with this when I first started and have been working with wood a long time.  I stick to rift sawn or flat sawn boards for "staves".  Occasionally I find some heavier than normal red oak at the big box stores with acceptable grain orientation and I grab every one of those I can find. I don't know if they come from larger trees or what but they are better in both compression and extension.

The real trick for me was learning to decipher the original orientation of the piece of wood in the tree.  This was not easy for me, it took some time to train my brain to do it.  But, once I got the hang of it my life became much easier finding wood for bows.  The boyers bible series covers this well.
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on September 01, 2016, 03:16:27 pm
Go for it, you aren't trying to build an over stressed bow by any means if it breaks it breaks you can always build another😜
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: George Tsoukalas on September 01, 2016, 08:48:28 pm
There;s info on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Jawge
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on September 01, 2016, 10:02:37 pm
There;s info on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Jawge

aye, there are way more than 2 run ups in one side of the board (20 or something) while it seems pretty straight on the other. I imagine it'll be fine with a lighter weight, with a paper and hide glue backing and way overbuilt. And with a trapped back
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: chrisdaggs on September 02, 2016, 06:10:45 pm
You could keep a crowned  belly such as a English longbow
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: loon on September 02, 2016, 06:18:33 pm
You could keep a crowned  belly such as a English longbow
If it was weak in tension, whatever that means (stiffness? flexibility?) I don't think it is..
ie I think such a cross section would be good for yew, juniper, incense cedar.. but not for oak, maple, hickory?
I think it makes more sense to have a crowned back with red oak, but I think I will just trapezoid it with a rather slight rounding, not round it

Apparently the old Tudor English Warbows actually had an oval cross section..
Title: Re: red oak board
Post by: bubby on September 02, 2016, 06:56:23 pm
Flat belly