Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dictionary on August 13, 2016, 07:52:36 pm
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I've come to this conclusion after more or less getting the last 3 or 4 bows I've built bending a bit too much in the handle and searching through old posts and seeing many members who have done the same. These bows have the handle as the widest part and taper to the nocks. Simple design...in theory. I'm finding that the amount of wood to get the handle flexing at full draw is very precise, and it is very easy to end up with the handle being stiff or bending too much. The result is too much set in the inner limbs with hand shock or having a 1 3/8 inch wide handle that does nothing for you other than require more specifically spined arrows.
First bow I posted a few weeks ago was the first one I'd made in a long time. It was about 43# or so and bent too much in the handle which jarred my hand slightly when I shot.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/r9qxbc.jpg)
Second bow is a longbow 71" tip to tip pulling 52#. My desire to have it bending in the handle and inner limbs for a full compass tiller resulted in too much set near the handle with less than ideal cast after 100 arrows or so shot. A stiff handle with an elliptical-like tiller would have been easier to build and would have performed better.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/r8c6lt.jpg)
I typically tiller the limbs then work back towards the handle. This is very time consuming trying to figure out how much wood to remove exactly at the handle before it begins to flex slightly without it bending far too much, taking set at the handle. Lastly, I have difficulty balancing the two limbs with one another as the handle begins to factor into the tiller which easily results in one limb being weaker than the other. I d say now for myself I'm foregoing the bendy handled bow to go for a stiff handled bow and would advise beginners to do the same. I appreciate their design and use, but I find them annoyingly difficult to tiller sometimes.
Just my thoughts on that....
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You are right. I never looked at them as Beginner's bows. You can make one fast, and it will shoot. But to be perfect, it's not easy.
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Dictionary, I would be interested in your tillering process. Do you use a tillering stick or tree? I have come to prefer stiff handles and shelves these days, but still make a bendy handle bow every now and then. I don't stay on the tiller tree past about twenty inches of draw. If I can get the limbs bending evenly to twenty on the tree, the rest is done in the hand. I get some friends to look at it or I look at pics, shadows, or reflections of it being drawn when I am alone. I think the feel of the bow in the hand is a big deal with bend in the handle bows. I try to shoot for it BARELY bending - just enough to feel it. Once you can see it bending on the tree, it has been my experience that it will thump your hand pretty good. When it comes together, they really shoot great.
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When I build a bendy handle bow I save the center section until last and bring the bend back into the handle. I like to feel the handle give just as I reach full draw.
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This topic should open the proverbial "can". I disagree with the original post but that is part of what makes this hobby so discussable. I think "discussable" is a word. :o
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Yeah same here, I started making rigid handle bows and had a dozen or so of them under my belt before I tried a bendy handle bow. I was reluctant to narrow the handle so it was too wide to suit me when done. I just kept at it until I had it figured out. They are harder to get right in my opinion, but once you do, they're sweet. My go to bow is a longish bendy handle I built maybe 3 years ago. Knotty Boy, there's a post on it. Sweet shooting, spine tolerant, hard hitting and simple in design, but the execution was not so easy.
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H Rhodes- I used a tree when I lived in a house. Now, here in my apartment I use a stick when long stringing then use a mirror and sighting down the limbs until final tiller.
Pat- I do the same thing and I try to achieve that too. It is just hard to get it kicking in at the right time.it's either too early and too much or not really at all
Slimbob- I love the design too. They are functional and beautiful when drawn and very useful for short bows with long draws. Just difficult to build
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I don't think tillering anything is easy.
I like to make bend in the handle board bows and I leave the handle area alone. At 3/4" it's tough to keep the handle from bending too much.
On log staves, the handle is the last part I work on so I can finesse the bending.
I always tiller from the handle out.
Jawge
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I, as a beginner, would say that making every part of the bow is difficult, from tip to tip. Anyhow, I tend to leave the handle alone until I get the mid limb portions bending well. Then I make the handle bend and leave the very tips for last. Perhaps I should leave the handle for the last moment, but the thin, narrow tips always scare me.
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I'm a newbie and have made 2 bendy bows one osage one hickory /sinew the osage I got the middle bending a little to much it has a little thump but still nice accurate bow 66 in, the hickory is a very sweet shooting bow zero thump in the hand , the osage I'm working on now I'm going to work real hard to to get it flatter in the middle but your right it's a real art to get these right I'm going to try like was said take it of the tree early & go by feel , I wouldn't give up on these just keep going tell you get it right.
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I think you're a bit more than a newbie if you've sinewed a bow... ...
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Thanks loon I have sinewed a couple but only made 8 bows & only 4 are shooters so yes I am a newbie , some of the guys here that Im friends with that have made tons of bows are open minded & looking to learn when it comes to making bows so I will always be a newbie theres so much to learn & so many ways to go with this craft if I would ever stagnate in my learning I would move on to something else so Im a for ever newbie.
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I like that mindset Stick Bender. I will always have the beginner's mind willing to learn new things at any time, never saying I have learned enough. Those are some nice shorties by the way. The D Bow is perfectly suited for those designs. I'm going to stick to the American Flatbow/Longbow design for now though.
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True, but don't discount the bendy's on longer bows as an alternative. If made correctly they stack up well with any of them. On some staves, getting one working in the handle might be the best prescription regardless of length.
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Every design has it's problems that seem to only bother YOU! I had the same problem with bendy handled bows and I think it is because I always had problem getting any bend at the fades on stiff handled bows that I built exclusively for the first 8 years of bowmaking.
My game plan now is to use the shortest long string possible as early as possible and get the full round arc of tiller. Clear as mud? I realized here a while back that if I was getting too much bend in the handle, I needed to consider it for what it really was: a danged hinge! I have poor luck getting rid of a hinge and now my game plan is to not start a hinge. To not start a hinge, I have to be more careful in the early stages. And that means, long string tillering even if it means only getting an inch of draw in the beginning stages. Plus I am checking tiller more often and spending a little more time excercising the limbs.
I am not going to tell you to not stress out about it, because I know how you work. You get all balled up over things, it's your nature, your base operating system. Instead, I am going to encourage this new characteristic I am seeing in you....your willingness to not quit. So, go ahead and stress out and second guess yourself, but know that you are gonna stick with this and finish it in the end. You got this.
Keep making. Keep posting.
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That was a good post. I don't make a lot of elbs but sometimes I do struggle with the shape I want. Last week I made 5 bows to end up with one how I like. One of them took set mid limb, another took set in the handle, another came out light and another had too much mass for my liking.
If you are blessed with a good eye for tiller you can get away with a little more than those of us who lack the artist eye. I find it is important for me to not only look at the tiller shape but also manage my tapers on the limbs not matter what I think the shape looks like.
I start off pulling to full draw weight right from the first pull. If the handle area bends too much I know right off the bat I started too thin. So I would say manage your tapers carefully throughout the process as well as keeping an eye on the tiller shape to keep it in ballance.
As for long string, last week I started off with a string that hungdown 12" with a little tension on it. I got it to 50#@23" with this string, I changed to a shorter string and it read the same thing, I finaly braced it and I was still getting 50#@23". So don't let the long string fool you by thinking you are still far away from your goal because of a loose string.
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Badger, I really like what you said about keeping the taper, ,even if the bow does not "look" right,, :)
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Brad, evey bow I wasn't happy with I could see it in the tpers but chose to trust my eye on the tiller instead. The last two both came out pretty good and I cut the tapers into them right from the start and then adjusted them as I went.
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Badger did you start your tapers from the center of the bow or did you leave a neutral handle area I'm trying to get these bows right I have stumbled threw 2 of them but trying to figure it out constantly ?
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Stick, I left the center 4" untapered at the rough out stage and then blended them in durring tillering.
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Thanks I will try your system on this one I'm working on , sorry Dictionary not trying to Hijack your thread you have been coming up with some awesome topics latley
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Has anyone tried or done what appears to be a stiff handle with a shelf that bends? I had one once that you could feel that a bit but I always thought it would one day blow . It did but not in handle but mid limb. Number 7 was its name . My go to bow for years. I will conceded myself a master if I can do this at will. Arvin
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Arvin, that sounds like a dangerous design!
No problems Stick Bender. I'm glad Badger is sharing his method to making these bows a little easier. It's all about sharing and learning ideas that makes this fun and worthwhile. Now that I go back and look at the taper of my last dbow like Badger suggests, I can see it is a bit thinner by eye than it should be at the handle area.
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Arvin, a few lines from my favorite movie sums up my thoughts on the bow you mentioned.....
Texas Jack: Did you ever see anything like that before?
Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Hell, I ain't never even heard of anything like that.
:)
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I have had 3 D bows break all in the bottom fade, one broke last night after being shot in a couple weeks ago, all finished and no tell tale set in the area it broke
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I think that is a great point about getting the handle bending too early! I have a few close to final tillering stage that I will make sure to try and save the handle for last..
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Looks like runouts and square edges got that one.
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Has anyone tried or done what appears to be a stiff handle with a shelf that bends? I had one once that you could feel that a bit but I always thought it would one day blow . It did but not in handle but mid limb. Number 7 was its name . My go to bow for years. I will conceded myself a master if I can do this at will. Arvin
I try to make all of my stiff handle bows start to bend at Full Draw. When I feel it, I know to let it go.
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Runouts weren't the issue but squareness I'll agree
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I like that idea Eddie.
I have been working on developing my sense of feeling the taper by hand and I think this needs a really good lay out of the width first. In the past I found myself working out tool marks along the side edges when pretty much tillered and that could lead to slight variance in width down the limb. I now scrape the edges smooth and sand them before going much past floor tiller and then I know I can trust going more by taper of thickness.
I also have been paying close attention to grain down the belly. I like to follow the rings from one side of the handle area to match it up on the other side and it seems to leave a little thicker island of a ring in the area of the grip. I am coming to believe that nature knows what it is doing when it thickens rings up in one place and down in another and it is trying to tell me to pay attention and follow along.
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Duby I like what you said about following the grain this one looked to me to be in good tiller but the belly ring lines were of a little off so I centered them & there was a nice cicular Island dead center in the bow & all radius marks measured dead the same this bow shoots nice but still has a little vibration left after the arrow leavs I think I still have to do the center by feel in the future to get it a tad more flat. These bows are fun but challenging
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I have always found stiff handled bows easier to tiller. I failed miserably with bend in the handle designs for a long time. I now find going slow on the long string to get perfect tiller at the draw weight I want to aim for while bending to brace height on the long string makes the rest of the tillering when the bow is under tension much easier and allows the tiller at centre to be achieved much earlier and easier.
Dean
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D bows are a lot easier to tiller if you use a "gizmo" tool and check it often.
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Y'all are making me feel like a pro >:D, I've never had much trouble tillering so long as the bow isn't to kinky. Like y'all have all said leave the handle till last, but it has always seemed to me that draw weight is more sensitive to wood removal at the handle rather than farther out, something to consider. I've always been of the opinion that if your handle dosent bend than you're wasting wood, which isn't to say I'm against stiff handles but if I can make one bend I will.