Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Knotty on July 12, 2016, 12:53:20 pm

Title: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 12, 2016, 12:53:20 pm
Hey everyone!
It's been a while since I last posted a thread since I'm getting better from a bad intestinal infection..

Anyway,
I was wondering why Copper is pretty much the only material I see in Flintknapping tools..
Is there a Scientific reason for that?
Would any other metal (such as silver) be suitable?

Just a question I had in mind, I hope you guys can take the time to answer me 😊

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: nclonghunter on July 12, 2016, 03:16:19 pm
Hey Knotty, I do not know the true reason but I believe it has the correct tensile strength or hardness. It needs to slightly grip the rock to pull a flake off. Too hard or too soft does not work as well. i also think that copper has different hardness and some will work better than others. Cost of metals with correct hardness may be a cause also.

Antler is also suppose to have a gripping texture or sufficient hardness. I have noticed some of it is harder and softer as well and the harder antler seems to work better for me.

For the little knowledge I have of metals, that's about all I can offer. Maybe someone with more info can help out here.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 12, 2016, 03:17:38 pm
Awesome , thanks!

If anyone would like to contribute to the answer, please do!
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: mullet on July 12, 2016, 07:36:45 pm
I read somewhere that it mimicks the gripping properties of antler but holds up longer between having to dress it. I've tried brass and it is too hard, along with steel and bronze. Aluminum is too soft. Horseshoe nails and old, antique nails are made with a softer steel and work pretty good.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 12, 2016, 08:11:17 pm
Alright great, thanks for the answers! 👍
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Outbackbob48 on July 13, 2016, 03:30:11 am
Knotty, copper plumbing caps filled with lead are softer than  the solid copper type billets, I started with the caps and have a hard time with the harder solid heads, Antler can also be effected by humidy and wear on tools, less dressing on copper tools, as other have said steel and brass is to hard, I have seen a few knappers using aluminum but I have no experience with them, also caps have that nice antler dome shape. A lot of tough stone knappers use dense wood billets (dogwood, European boxelder and such) By tuff stone I mean Ryholites and Quartsite and Argualite type materials, Some of the man rock knappers :o ;D produce amazing pcs with there wood billets. hope this helps. Bob
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Dakota Kid on July 13, 2016, 06:57:34 am
I read somewhere that it mimicks the gripping properties of antler but holds up longer between having to dress it. I've tried brass and it is too hard, along with steel and bronze. Aluminum is too soft. Horseshoe nails and old, antique nails are made with a softer steel and work pretty good.

While it is much lighter, pure aluminium is harder than pure copper. It not much harder, just a bit.  I use aluminium from time to time and it performs almost identically to copper, at least for me. I switch to an aluminum point on my ishi stick when I seem to be dressing my copper one too often. I use the old gutter spikes I've twisted and cut to size for my source for aluminum tips. Siding nails seem to be even harder, I'm guessing they're some type of Al alloy.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 13, 2016, 08:59:36 am
How do you guys think Silver would do? (Yes , the precious metal).
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: GlisGlis on July 13, 2016, 11:01:28 am
try depleted uranium!
they say your arrowhead will be a bomb  >:D
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 13, 2016, 11:44:43 am
Hahaha! I imagine so 😊

I'm asking about the silver because I've got some old silver knives and forks laying around that are un-needed, and don't have any significant value, if it's deemed a good knapping material such as copper , I could make use of it too.. At least it won't go to waste.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: caveman2533 on July 13, 2016, 12:18:15 pm
if it is sterling silver it indeed is more valuable than copper, current  price is about 16 dollars an OZ. copper is about 3$ lb.   I suspect it will be too hard, I know when trying to hammer silver to make jewelry it must be annealed every so often as it work hardens.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 13, 2016, 04:07:57 pm
Ah , alright, thank you For the answer 😉
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Electricfrontporch on July 13, 2016, 06:21:15 pm
Probably would be better served selling the silver for scrap price and using the money to stock up on copper.  Noah
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Chippintuff on July 13, 2016, 07:10:30 pm
Most knappers, including me, will tell you that copper is the perfect knapping tool. It is available, cheap compared to antlers, requires less care during use, and can make any flake that other tools can make. The Indians who had it used it.

WA
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 13, 2016, 11:01:33 pm
Mhm, but it's not pure silver, probably mixed with other materials.. I don't think anybody would want to buy it.

Thanks to le0n I got a couple copper points to knap with,
And thanks to Eddie, got some rocks aswell!

Thank you all for your answer.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: le0n on July 14, 2016, 01:38:32 am
Here's my newest copper percussion tool.

Not sure if it will work, but it feels like it has enough weight to work just fine.

The solid copper sphere is attached with fer-l-tite. We'll see if the glue has good enough shock resistance.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Sd6mBMkNgYY8Rs69aIIr3PJ7gxzjDADfOv6ga86PfFIsKXLsEcClYbpqU6OVtBEFnORwEgKjqcIjT-utMQJlBEBuGfmIiAhbUfo8YtRHbx6XZc31sSscNWDl-M9s7lMKVesqaBCWmtZT8e3OyaT-5ZXD_aMikaZdom7rclUQCCn1vNs6_BTzKHYzLIb8qK0K0NDpXbdSAlCS8_AV2rOIP3QPoBy5HRBGoVDBWMJOJSNyX6qWjIDM3d0iqWznsLyzeE-XOFxgxKaRZRNaxn6RFrHDm6ss1WNhJ8Y6h4DEH8yzezwhUo02dgmNcy1N0fuToFKLF8cO4YWI_lnOTb54n_LjI3Sm8R09vgFl_h9TxaLRsshPQe0GuReYaQq9nJXhsCrpZzVNqS64eOOYdS6iVcpLGObka-t0a3PbkeqFRb85srbdElc6dUyzOb6ClJqROyxAwPzYi62pazE6Bp2Anp3StmIQ19UROpzFFO7bJHwuUEv9VRsYGm1jYppoZNGc09D6HKuAulqSzWuZHjm1QvT2LChw6qP-BoZHirJfNjVimjgslKkrN7wF3uzVq-JbhKOXoVfzQ9PLukSdAbDWA719vYvo-ro=w720-h1280-no)

I cupped the end of the dowel with my lathe. 
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Dakota Kid on July 21, 2016, 03:57:50 pm
Did that ball pop off yet?

 If it held, I have a new found respect for fer-l-tite. You may need to tap out the bottom and use a double pointed screw and put one end into the ball and the other into the handle. Wrap the end of the handle where the screw is with sinew or synthetic braid string soaked in glue. I'd imagine that would keep it in place.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: le0n on July 21, 2016, 07:55:55 pm
^^ yep :laugh:

it never even saw rock. i was testing it in the palm of my hand.

it definitely needs a stem. i'll sweat a copper rod into it.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: mullet on July 21, 2016, 09:21:13 pm
Drill a hole through the center and drive a copper nail into the wood with JB Weld.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: caveman2533 on July 22, 2016, 08:27:08 am
Knotty,
Is your silver   ,,,, silver plate or does it have a hallmark as sterling.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: Knotty on July 22, 2016, 12:44:59 pm
It doesn't have the mark on it, but it was brought to a couple jewelers to test, and they assured it's silver.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: le0n on July 22, 2016, 01:50:34 pm
^^ sell the sterling to buy rocks 8)

Drill a hole through the center and drive a copper nail into the wood with JB Weld.

because i can't drill straight into the end of a dowel, i don't believe i'll magically be able to drill straight into the center of a sphere.

i've decided to just flare the end of a small handle-length section of 1/2" or 3/4" hard copper tubing (whichever one i have in my junk box). then sweat/solder the sphere on the end of it. i can always leather wrap it.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: mullet on July 22, 2016, 03:40:53 pm
Guess it would be difficult if you don't have a Drill Press with a clamp.
Title: Re: Copper Question!
Post by: crooketarrow on July 24, 2016, 05:21:20 pm
 Vice, drill hole thought the copper ,throught the woods lenght. And get a peice of all tread, washer tighten it down.

Coppers use because it's a solf metal. Its right there with lead then gold its our softest metal, we have.
 Like solf antler when pushed into the edge. Even though the edge looks,pointy,smooth to us it's not it's felled with cuts,grove holes etc. When pushed in the solf copper fills these places enabling to hold so you can pop a flake off.