Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DC on July 05, 2016, 01:01:15 pm
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If my nock point seems to be a bit high, which limb is too strong? I pondered this while I was trying to get to sleep last night and my logic seems to think that the top limb is too strong. Am I right? ??? ???
It did put me to sleep ;D ;D
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I set my nock 3/8" above horizontal and I nock the arrow on top of the nock point. That seems to work for me on almost all the bows I make. I usually shoot a bow in with no nock point. I can feel even tension on the string and shoot like that...pretty accurately too I might add.
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I don't think you answered my question. Reading Badjers "engineering " post I got the impression that raising and lowering the nock point was just compensating for a tillering imbalance. That said, you've brought up another question. When you say that you can feel even tension on the string, can you elaborate on that? Do you actually feel the nock point/arrow lift up or pull down or do you feel the bow torquing toward/away from you?
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What is it, DC?
I would not worry about it.
I think a better way of looking at the limb imbalance issue, assuming you have one and if you did the bow would feel tippy when you draw it, is to move the arrow pass up or down. Down would strengthen the bottom limb and vice versa.
I think Badger was thinking aloud but I never did fully understand his point.
Jawge
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What is it, DC?
I would not worry about it.
I think a better way of looking at the limb imbalance issue, assuming you have one and if you did the bow would feel tippy when you draw it, is to move the arrow pass up or down. Down would strengthen the bottom limb and vice versa.
I think Badger was thinking aloud but I never did fully understand his point.
Jawge
What do you mean, "What is it?"
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The only time I fret about the Nock point is when the arrows are going to high, low or nock high on the target. That is my last adjustment. By far the biggest problem I have is the handle area. But then again I'm shooting off the shelf.......... ::)
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i think the top limb is too stiff for where you are shooting the bow,,or where the arrow rest is,,,what
if you lowered the point where the arrow is resting it might shoot better???
but usually if I have to raise the nock point much,, its because there is no positive tiller,, even though it may appear that way at brace,,hmmmm,,,
the longer the bows seem to be less sensitive to this,,
the shorter ones seem a bit finicky,,
I have a long bow I am shooting now,, it has a sweet spot,, for sure,, i have moved the arrow rest up and down and there is one spot is gets the best arrow flight,,,, there is not any positive tiller on the bow at brace,, but the arrow flies great,, so I am not worried,, yet :)
and everything could vary depending the the shooter and release,, isn't that fun,,,
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Damn thats a "I drank too much coffee before bed" kinda night lol! I only worry about nock point when my arrow is swimming at the target like a seal. A slight change in brace can change it pretty quick. I am not sure that the limb balance has much to do with it? But thats me keeping it simple.
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DC, when I shoot in a bow I place the arrow on the string about where it should be(no measurements)and feel the tension on the string above and below the arrow as I draw to see if one feels stronger. On some "primitive" bows I make I never use a nock point. I just give it an educated guess and usually they shoot just fine.
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DC....you can feel which limb is stronger drawing with a loose or no grip as you stated.It will show on my tillering tree even before I draw it.With the bow straight up and down as you draw it the stronger limb will tilt towards you.The pressure point on my bow hand is pretty darn close to the center of the bow.
What always seems to work for me DC is that initially I mark my handles at 4.5" long.I go 1/2" down for my arrow pass.That puts my arrow pass at about 1.5 or 1.75 inches above the center of the bow.My actual handle then is 4" long.Then like Pat B says I put my string knock on the string 3/8" above my arrow pass on the handle for the shaft to be level.That's the way I was shown and it has worked for me always,but I usually don't shoot bows shorter than 60".Like Brad said longer bows are more forgiving when it comes to accuracy it seems.I was told that by my mentors who've shot traditionally for over 50 years and they are right.Does'nt mean it can't be done though.I can't comment on arrow flight of shorter bows because I don't have enough experience with them.That's about as technical as I ever get.You do what feels good to you.
Badger wants better arrow flight period.
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First if you lower your nocking point do the fletches scuff your hand?
I only ever need to go 1/8 higher than square to the string. 3/8ths seems like a lot to me?
lower limb is too strong and therefore returning to brace too quickly if you have to raise the nocking point excessively.
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Man you guys get technical, never have figured out how one limb returns to brace before the other when the are attached with a string :-\ If the bow feels balanced in my hand when I draw it back I set my nock about 1/8 high to start and adjust from there if needed to get good arrow flight. :)
Pappy
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Mike, I set my nock point at 3/8", measured from the shelf to the bottom of the nock point. When I put an arrow on the string, which has a 1/4" thick nock, it results in the aft end of the arrow being 1/8" above square to the shelf.
Pappy, just because the limbs return enough to make the string straight again doesn't necessarily mean the limbs are done moving at that instant. If one returned before the other, it will have gone beyond where it resides at brace, before the other gets there, and they have a bit of settling to do before they find their brace height equalibrium again. This is what creates handshock.
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Asharrow said, "Since we hold the bow below the arrow, on release, there will always be a force tending to rotate the bow's top limb toward the archer. (As someone noted about a video early in this thread)."
I don't think this is true as it stands. It's just as much because we draw the bow above its center. Bows can/should be designed and tillered so that this tilting back of the top limb is minimized, and often, some 'tipping' can be 'recognized' in design, and then eliminated completely through tillering. That's what tillering and limb balance is about. If a bow does in fact act that way in the end, I feel safe to say it could have been designed and/or tillered better.
"This idea is similar to the issue of making the limbs equal length or making the bottom one shorter. (And whether to make a shorter lower limb stronger than the upper limb--I say that latter practice makes no sense, because a shorter limb of equal strength will return faster anyway)."
I think it makes no sense as well, but perhaps for different reasons. I think that regardless of whether the bow is symmetrical or asymmetrical, its limbs should be balanced in strength relative to the archer's holds on bow and string, and then the braced profile is what it is.... a result of our tillering efforts... not a mirage of a beacon to guide us throughout construction... which basically amounts to a guess of what is best for any particular bow. I also contend that when the bow's center is within the grip of our bow hand, and we pull the string above center, if the strength of the limbs is perfectly balanced, relative to the shooter, on a straight standing bow, the result will most likely be negative tiller. If in the end it IS in fact negative, then a shorter lower limb isn't necessarily going to return faster then, is it? It won't because it's limbs have been made to work in harmony.
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Man you guys get technical, never have figured out how one limb returns to brace before the other when the are attached with a string :-\ If the bow feels balanced in my hand when I draw it back I set my nock about 1/8 high to start and adjust from there if needed to get good arrow flight. :)
Pappy
Pappy, I do it exactly like you do, as long as the string attaches the two limbs they have to return at the same time.
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I second that, Badger. Or was that third?
Remember fellas, this is "primitive archery." I wrap my hand around the handle area while applying light tension on the string with my draw hand. I adjust my grip hand up or down until the bow feels balanced. Then I nock an arrow on the string where it appears perpendicular to the top of my knuckle. I loosely clamp a nock point or wrap masking tape there and shoot it for a bit, paying attention to arrow flight. I adjust the point from there.
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Not me. I want to lay my bow out so that the bow center and grip is exactly where I know the bow will balance perfectly in my bow hand as I carry it, and then tiller it so it balances when drawn. I predetermine the nock height, and then adjust limb strength relative to those things. Quick and easy. Predictable and repeatable. I want to make the best I'm capable of and don't care if others deem them 'primitive' or whatever. To each their own.... lots of ways to skin a selfbow.
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If my nock point seems to be a bit high, which limb is too strong?
Here I am quoting myself. It seems that if a question even remotely involves balance it breaks down into a great long pissing match. I don't think my question is too technical or controversial. I would think it would be a rule of thumb that, " If your nock point seems too high you should reduce the weight on the (blank) limb." Brad tried to answer my question but he said ,"I think." I always like more than one answer, especially on the internet. Sorry Brad. If it turns out that there are two answers then maybe there is room for a urination contest :) :)
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If my nock point seems to be a bit high, which limb is too strong?
Here I am quoting myself. It seems that if a question even remotely involves balance it breaks down into a great long pissing match. I don't think my question is too technical or controversial. I would think it would be a rule of thumb that, " If your nock point seems too high you should reduce the weight on the (blank) limb." Brad tried to answer my question but he said ,"I think." I always like more than one answer, especially on the internet. Sorry Brad. If it turns out that there are two answers then maybe there is room for a urination contest :) :)
I think the reason you are not getting a straight snwer is because most of us just tiller the bow out watching the limbs to see which is stronger, we never look at nocking point and ask ourselves which is stronger. So in that sense I think we are not comfortable answering the question directly.
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will add that I have some tendency to tiller my bows even at brace and find I have to raise my nocking point about 1/8" to 1 /4". So I would guess the top limb is too strong but I am not certain.
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I think the reason you are not getting a straight snwer is because most of us just tiller the bow out watching the limbs to see which is stronger, we never look at nocking point and ask ourselves which is stronger. So in that sense I think we are not comfortable answering the question directly.
Exactly.
Now entertaining your question, I would say that a high nocking point compensates for a stiff lower limb.
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Thanks Steve, at least that's an answer. I thought there could only be two, but I was wrong. :) :)
Oh two new replies, one top and one bottom. Great ;D
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That explanation nailed it for me Badger. So much of this for me is by feel without having given much thought to the actual mechanics. Zen and the Art of Bow Making I guess. Tiller for balance in the hand and fine tune arrow flight with the knocking point. I admire those that bring the mechanics into the equation and borrow from their work.
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The original question was that "If my nock point seems to be a bit high, which limb is too strong?"
The answer is that neither of the limbs. The problem is that nocking point is not a parameter relative to tiller, so you can not deduce anything from nocking point. Second, nocking point is just there where you put it, it does not settle somewhere. Nocking point is high if you put it high.
The right nocking point is where the arrow passes the hand (do a bareshaft test) and is has nothing to do with the tiller or geometry of the bow. If bareshaft test result indicates an unusual (what really is unusual high nocking point?) high nocking point, reasons may be in arrow, release or gripping the bow.
See my slow motion videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCsED0f-CV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1EoHfjftQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKIlomh-kos
And finally this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iHEiBa7zMg
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The original question was that "If my nock point seems to be a bit high, which limb is too strong?"
The answer is that neither of the limbs. The problem is that nocking point is not a parameter relative to tiller, so you can not deduce anything from nocking point. Second, nocking point is just there where you put it, it does not settle somewhere. Nocking point is high if you put it high.
The right nocking point is where the arrow passes the hand (do a bareshaft test) and is has nothing to do with the tiller or geometry of the bow. If bareshaft test result indicates an unusual (what really is unusual high nocking point?) high nocking point, reasons may be in arrow, release or gripping the bow.
See my slow motion videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCsED0f-CV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1EoHfjftQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKIlomh-kos
And finally this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iHEiBa7zMg
What if you have to nock "too high" above the perpendicular of the arrow rest to avoid the arrow slapping into the rest or hand or flying tail down somehow? That would say something about the tiller..
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Man you guys get technical, never have figured out how one limb returns to brace before the other when the are attached with a string :-\ If the bow feels balanced in my hand when I draw it back I set my nock about 1/8 high to start and adjust from there if needed to get good arrow flight. :)
Pappy
Pappy, I do it exactly like you do, as long as the string attaches the two limbs they have to return at the same time.
Sorry but this isn't correct. Make a bow with a much thicker limb than the other to prove it.High speed videos also prove this. The string isn't and cannot be tight the whole time from release to brace height. Does a thicker tuning fork vibrate faster or slower than a thinner one? If you tied the two ends together do you think they would vibrate at the same rate?
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loon - good question. But what is too high? Normal range is around 3-15 mm, has anyone used more or less? If tiller really had a big effect to nocking point, there should be also negative nocking point.
But, I have to admit that tiller (positive/negative) has a tiny effect to nocking point but it realizes in fine tuning if an ultimate accuracy is the most important thing. Even then the differencies are very small.
Mikekeswick - you have to first define what "brace" and "same time" mean.
See these, my slow motion videos. The bow has 1500 grains extra weight in upper/lower limb tip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAXSMKogHgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pYVmrWzTP8
As you can see, the heavier limb is slower and is it moving very little compared to the other limb. The bow is also turning a little. But, both limbs will be at brace at same time. Lets suppose that "brace" means the moment when the string is straight, then both limb tips have stopped. Of course, both limbs continue to vibrate, as in any bow. That bow shooted just fine, nocking point was just normal and so on. Just a little more handshock because of the extra tip weight.
See this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGgWZYny9RM
I was shooting bow, whose tiller was off. Still both limbs returned at the brace at same time - bow continues moving straight forward. No horizontal turning. Vertical turning is because of the finger release and string hitting to wrist guard.
See also this video (at 0:52, yumi bow):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir5GKAQG14g
As you can see, the string is tight the whole time from release to brace height. Of course, the bow turns and the string and limbs continue to vibrate after that, as supposed. Limbs do not vibrate at the same rate but they will return to the brace at the same time!
The last video (at 0:52, yumi bow) also proves nicely the nocking point "problem". Very asymmetrical bow, but still the nocking point seems to be just normal, or a bit too high. So, tiller has no effect to nocking point (except fine tuning mentioned before...).
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I disagree. The limbs aren't necessarily back to their original position, as it resides at complete rest at brace height, the exact instant the string becomes straight again. It still has moving to do... as your videos show... and more of it out of sync if the limbs aren't moving/returning in harmony.
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Dws - thanks for the comment. But you disagree what? Seems that we have to define "brace", "same time" "original position" and "out of sync" also. For example, is original position limb tips (or any points in limbs) position in x-y-coordinates at time t=0? And so on...
I think that the problem is that limbs are thought to be independent but in reality the whole bow with string is an integral, one part system. Think of one-limb bow (which in reality is not possible) or bow where the second limb is absolutely stiff (an extreme example of asymmetrical bow). When bending that kind of bow, are the limbs out of sync or are the limbs returning to the brace at the same time, etc.? When bending, the bow tilts, or rotates, just like bows in those videos, just more pronounced.
Thus, I think that most bowyers think that limbs are in sync, etc., when the bow is not tilting, rotating in horizontal plane. Which is not the case.
There is much more interesting things what I don't know or I am not sure but would like to know. This "limbs timing" debate is very old but no one has presented a really good answer.
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I'd like to see a perfectly "timed" bow in slo mo too.
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Tuomo, I agree with you. The limbs will both return at the same time. They will always have exactly the same amount of tension. Any slack in the string will happen after the arrow leaves the bow. I never think of limb timing in terms of when they return. I do think of limb timing in terms of how they unwind.
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"They will always have exactly the same amount of tension."
I disagree again. They will only have the same amount of tension during the draw if they're balanced in strength relative to the archer's holds. I can easily apply more tension/load to one limb than the other by changing the fulcrums in my bow and string hands. For instance, if the bow tips the top limb forward as I draw and I grip the bow tightly and apply enough heal pressure that the handle area stands straight, I will have applied more bend, load and tension to the bottom limb. Put load cells in the string and see for yourself.
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I don't use a visual nocking point any more -- meaning a knot, etc. on the string. I just place the arrow slightly above square to the string visually. I think I probably adjust the actual nocking point unconsciously depending on how the last arrow flew. Strings can change, and so can limbs for various reasons, humidity, etc. So my guess is I may not be nocking at the exact same point every time I string the bow. This didn't answer DC's question. But it's a preface to why I have an opinion about it, and what that opinion comes from.
In shooting a new character bow with asymmetric limbs I built early on, I found that I needed a low knock point, rather than the more standard slightly high one to get decent arrow accuracy. But the feathers did hit the hand fairly hard. If I tried to nock higher, the flight suffered.
Because the limbs were asymmetric, I wasn't sure what to do to correct this problem. Since the bow was also under weight, I was not keen to tiller either limb further. I was thinking of piking one limb as a possibility. But didn't know which one to pike. Before I did that, though, I tried shooting the bow upside down, and was surprised to get accurate shots and a normal square to the string nocking point, and light feather contact.
Unfortunately the handle had been carved biased to gripping the other way round. What really surprised me though was that the upper limb was now shorter than the lower, and if you figure in the movement of the location of the arrow pass on the bow the effective length of the upper limb was greatly reduced.
What I wasn't counting on was that the grip was forcing a lower contact point than I had been using before, which was more of a pinch.
Sorry DC, I'm still not answering your question. Because I'm still not sure of the answer to the specific of it. But what I did learn then, was that the handle shape can greatly affect the arrow flight and nocking point, and degree of limb asymmetry, too.
I'm sure this is obvious to the more experienced here, and they have settled on handle shapes and arrow pass location which they repeat consistently, so it doesn't become a question. And then setting a nock point at a specific distance that they have found through experience works best is consistent with that set of givens. But I think it's not possible to separate nocking point, limb symmetry, tillering, handle shape for bows built by different and less experienced people.
If you think about it, bow-hand fletching contact, and arrow flight are two different effects, both of which may be altered independent of each other by raising or lowering a nock point on the string. So a single answer -- tiller or pike one or the other limb -- might not solve the problem, or might induce another, if the grip or symmetry is a cause.
I have to admit that lately I have been building symmetric length limbed bows, and I am paying particular attention to how the grip hits my hand. And, at least for me, the results tillering and shooting have become more consistent.
Sorry to add one more non-answer here to your very direct and simple seeming question.
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I think, assuming the grip doesn't rotate while the bow is drawn, if the nocking point seems too low then the upper limb is too weak? Meh, I should build a small test bow..
I GUESS you'd then have to pike the upper limb. You could maybe make one of those bulby sinew nocks that aren't permanent, lower on the top limb instead of piking? just to test
That would also explain how I don't have to nock so high on my horn bow when I choose top limb as weaker one
edit: Actually, from what I learned from that tillering thread, I think the lower limb is weaker if you have to nock low for good arrow flight. Because the bow rotates on its fulcrum... or something, when it is not balanced? ie the stiffer limb appears to be pulled in more with the vertical as the 'arrow'
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Some of the answers to our questions are within these posts. The problem of course is that much of the info offered is contradictory.
I plan to do a bunch of testing on this subject soon. I have two test bows glued up, sensors, meters, and such wired and rigged. I just have a few more things to make before I get started.... well that and the other 10,000 things I have to do.
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Don't forget the special gift you were going to send me. How's about you do that first, then play mad scientist :)
I cant answer any of the questions in this post. I cant even answer why I do what I do. Its all feel for me, however it works out in the end.
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I'm with Pearly. Not too sure why I do what I do. Sometimes I think I nailed a bow, but just can't seem to figure out why it's not shooting perfectly, and other times they just do.
When you make and shoot a lot of bows, you really start to feel and notice the small things.
Maybe one day I'll dive deeper into that stuff, but for now I'm jusy happy when I make a bow that shoots great.
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"They will always have exactly the same amount of tension."
I disagree again. They will only have the same amount of tension during the draw if they're balanced in strength relative to the archer's holds. I can easily apply more tension/load to one limb than the other by changing the fulcrums in my bow and string hands. For instance, if the bow tips the top limb forward as I draw and I grip the bow tightly and apply enough heal pressure that the handle area stands straight, I will have applied more bend, load and tension to the bottom limb. Put load cells in the string and see for yourself.
The difference when you are drawing a bow is that you can apply pressure in more than one direction. When you shoot the arrow suddenly it no longer matter where you are holding the bow, the arrow will instantly go up or down according to relative strength of limbs and they will instantly become identical in tension regardless of their shape.
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At the shot, it may not matter as much how you are holding the bow, unless you were and continue to torque it, but it still matters a lot how you HELD it, string too, when you loaded each limb with energy.... and WILL matter until those forces are expended. When one limb is storing more energy, it has more to transfer, and won't be instantly, magically equalized just because we let go of the string. The proof that a disparity between them isn't INSTANTLY equalized when the string slides free of the hand lies in the effects produced... which are partly associated with what you said, Steve, "the arrow will instantly go up or down according to the relative strength of the limbs." Yep, that is one of the effects of unbalanced limb strength relative to the shooter.
If they were instantly equalized when the string was released, there would be no such affect on the arrow.
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At the shot, it may not matter as much how you are holding the bow, unless you were and continue to torque it, but it still matters a lot how you HELD it, string too, when you loaded each limb with energy.... and WILL matter until those forces are expended. When one limb is storing more energy, it has more to transfer, and won't be instantly, magically equalized just because we let go of the string. The proof that a disparity between them isn't INSTANTLY equalized when the string slides free of the hand lies in the effects produced... which are partly associated with what you said, Steve, "the arrow will instantly go up or down according to the relative strength of the limbs." Yep, that is one of the effects of unbalanced limb strength relative to the shooter.
If they were instantly equalized when the string was released, there would be no such affect on the arrow.
It happens withing the first couple of inches of power stroke and the arrow has to move up and down for this to happen.
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then hand shock is still a mystery,, :)
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then hand shock is still a mystery,, :)
I have my own theory on handshock. A few years ago I started using the gizmo to tiller bows cause it was easy and quick. I got the whole limb working and not much set. All of a sudden I have handshock. If a bow starts to bend near the outer limbs and progressively bends inward toward the handle it wont have any shock as a rule. beautiful round tillers are wrist breakers. The elyptical tiller unfolds the way I described and I feel is best for a number of reasons including no handshock.
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exaggerated picture of what my horn bow looks like (not as unbalanced) - the top limb bends more. I imagine if I shot it upside down, I'd have to nock much higher, but I need to test
(https://i.imgur.com/IXpsADU.jpg)
I imagine with a weaker top limb, it shoots a bit up more than otherwise, requiring a lower nocking point, am I right?
I don't have to nock very high for the arrow to go straight and not hit my hand. Yet it has handshock, maybe because of the twisted top limb. Maybe because the tips are rather thick and horn covered
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exaggerated picture of what my horn bow looks like (not as unbalanced) - the top limb bends more. I imagine if I shot it upside down, I'd have to nock much higher, but I need to test
(https://i.imgur.com/IXpsADU.jpg)
I imagine with a weaker top limb, it shoots a bit up more than otherwise, requiring a lower nocking point, am I right?
I don't have to nock very high for the arrow to go straight and not hit my hand. Yet it has handshock, maybe because of the twisted top limb
The limbs are probably moving a lot after the arrow leaves the bow. Once the arrow leaves all kinds of things can happen. The string can go slack and each limb will do its own thing.
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"It happens withing the first couple of inches of power stroke and the arrow has to move up and down for this to happen."
I know the nock end of the arrow moves up or down upon release if the bow isn't balanced relative to the shooter, I just don't believe it's instantly resolved.
Further, for you to say that the arrow DOES move up or down upon return of the limbs counters your theory of the arrow instantly balancing relative limb strength because it's the only thing holding back the string. If it did, it wouldn't move up or down. Pick your battle.
Since bows can be a little unbalanced or a LOT, I don't think we can say the effects of that unbalance is resolved in all of them within the first couple inches without hard proof... and personally I don't believe it at all anyway :^) I'm confident negative effects on the arrow are produced if the limbs aren't balanced, that it's also a major cause of handshock (something else I've tested), and design and tiller my bows to eliminate these things as much as possible. Handshock due to limb imbalance also kinda blows your 'instant fix" and "instant arrow balance" theories out of the water, so I understand why you're coming up with your own handshock theory :)
I've seen bows so unbalanced that they reveal themselves before the first inch of draw and continue to get worse, and you've got your work cut out for ya to prove to me that this resolves on its own in the first inch of return from full draw. No way. Good luck.
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Very good discussion!
Again, I think that a lot of disagreements relates to the fact that terms are undefined. Dws has a good reasoning but, what for example term "balanced" means? Is it balanced with limb bending, force, momentum, limbs kinetic energy, limb strain, limb length or what? Without defining terms, the agreement is very difficult to reach.
This discussion relates to limb timing and a little to handshock. Limb timing (and related term) requires exact definitions to be continued. Hand shock is more simple, thus I think that it is still a mystery, beacause the exact reasons are not known. Of course, limb tip mass and so on but there are still more.
Sometimes I think I nailed a bow, but just can't seem to figure out why it's not shooting perfectly, and other times they just do. When you make and shoot a lot of bows, you really start to feel and notice the small things.
Wizardgoat said it, one bow shoots just great but second bow don't, and reasons are not evident. That is sometimes disturbing. For example, why arc tillered longbows have usually a lot of hand shock, although tiller ("balance") is good and tips are tiny? And so on. There are many unsolved mysteries of primitive archery and bows!
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DWS, I agree they need to be Balanced for the sake of the arrow. I think we disagree on the optimum balance point. I say the tension on the limbs will equal out but I don't say it will be a good outcome if limbs are not balanced. If the limbs are not closely balanced the arrow won't return level to the rest area.
I usually tiller for split finger because I feel it is the best compromise making the bow more balanced and steady on the draw allowing for better aiming. It is plenty close enough for a minor nock height adjustment for good flight. I will likely start tillering my flight bows where I will hold them at the arrow rest and pull straight down from the arrow rest because accuracy is not as important and I am hoping for a little cleaner flight there.
As for handshock I thin we universally agree that too much mass in out limbs causes shock. I think shock also has more opportunity to exist in bows with more working limb simply because there is more limb to vibrate. As for tiller shape, I am also convinced the the elliptical tiller allows the inner potions of the limbs to mostly finish their job before hitting brace height. Pyramid bows with round tiller seem to be shock free which contradicts this but I suspect that they also tend to unwind from inside to outside but not really sure.
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Tuomo, how would you know for certain limb balance is good and not the cause of the handshock? I don't trust folks' assessments if they assume balance in their bows by tillering to a predetermined measurement at brace. I also don't trust their 'feel' for balance at full draw, since too many have to adjust the height of the nock point to achieve good arrow flight afterwards.
I may have been guilty on occasion of using the term 'balance' without quantifying it with enough adjectives just because I HAVE clarified it so many times here that I begin to assume folks know what I'm talking about. But by relative limb balance, it means the limbs bend so that, when the bow and string is held as when shot by the archer(that's the relative part), the arrow nock comes straight back, perpendicular to the shelf/handle... neither drawn upward or downward by a limb acting stronger than its counterpart.
Also related to these discussions... there's a static balance point, where the bow balances without tension on the string, and a dynamic balance point, where the bow balances at full draw in the archer's hands at full draw.
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sorry for the redundancy :o
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Pearly, don't worry, you'll get what you got coming... and then some... and I'm not playing mad scientist... more like obsessed. You should see the carnage in and behind the shop right now >:D
I spent 5 hours yesterday driving looking for osage after work. You should see the size of the behemoth hedge trees I found... too hot to tackle... biding my time.