Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: osage outlaw on April 28, 2016, 12:30:33 am
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I saw a bow like this several years ago at the Classic and wanted to try to make one. The stave has paper thin rings. So thin you can't distinguish them on the top half of the stave. I removed the bark and sapwood with a draw knife. Then I used a scraper to smooth the back out. I never paid any attention to chasing a ring. The back has numerous violations. It looks like there might be close to 10 different rings violated on the back. I sanded it to 400 grit and coated the back with super glue twice sanding after each coat. Tomorrow I'm going to try to tiller it out and see what happens. I'm 50/50 on if it makes it or not. It will either be an interesting bow or an exciting explosion.
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I'm going to try to build it with zero heat corrections.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20160427_221636_zpswohu4kvx.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20160427_221636_zpswohu4kvx.jpg.html)
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(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20160427_221648_zpsa8nlnmws.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20160427_221648_zpsa8nlnmws.jpg.html)
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20160427_222202_zpsbbrrl7zz.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20160427_222202_zpsbbrrl7zz.jpg.html)
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This should be cool
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You taking bets? ;D
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I had about 20 of those in a years time. Theoretically fine grain like that should be less sensitive to popping than thick rings, I am curious to see what happens. I would sometimes have to chase 5 rings to get on not violated.
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I'd chase a ring :)
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You go for it... I'm still sittin' on that fine ring Osage 'cos I'm chicken.
I'm a great believer in challenging the received wisdom.
Del
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We will find out tomorrow. I'll post a picture of the outcome.
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I'll be watching should have video of this.
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Should turn out fine if the design isnt extreme. Knots and pins are often imo more risky than such shallow ring violations.
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Cool experiment, I'm betting that it holds Clint.
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I suspect that it will be OK but never having done a similar bow I am offering just an opinion. I haev violated tight grain around pins a bunch of times with no problems.
I saw a bow once that the woodwasp larva had made the back look like swiss cheese. The bow maker made a bow out of the stave just to see what would happen, nothing happened, the bow held up and was shooting fine.
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please just rawhide back it so it won't explode,,no need to risk breaking a nice stave,,
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I'd burnish it and continue on with the experiment. I'm betting it will be a shooter.
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I'm not going to back it. I want to see what it will do. I got it tapered and rounded the edges. I put osage tip overlays on it. It's going to be light draw weight because of all the early growth. When I'm done with my shark steak lunch I'll start tillering it. You got to love the meals at the classic.
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Hi there, If you see a faint ghostly figure of a wandering Brit at the stroke of midnight...it's me 'cos I'm there in spirit.
Have a grand time and tip a mason jar for me :)
Del
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Clint,
You said you weren't going to back it...The idea is to soak a couple of exposed rings with super glue which would be a glue backing? Synthetic? Trying to understand the experiment...
Don
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It's just to see if a thin ringed bow can handle multiple ring violations. The reason I soaked it in superglue is because the bow I saw like this was built that way. I'm trying to replicate his build.
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It might survive tillering, or even for a decent amount of shooting but it will pop rings on the back eventually.
I have also seen bows from staves like this go during tillering, especially in staves with thin rings that look on the end grain like predominantly early wood.
Nice experiment and I can understand why you might want to try it out, but it has been tried by plenty of people in the past(including myself), a rawhide backing before tillering will save the stave, and save you time in the long run.
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Hi there, If you see a faint ghostly figure of a wandering Brit at the stroke of midnight...it's me 'cos I'm there in spirit.
Have a grand time and tip a mason jar for me :)
Del
Explains why I have been so dis-spirited the last few days. If your ghost sees my ghost, tell 'im I said "hi".
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Hamish the point of the whole thing is the experiment, time and stave notwithstanding, believe me the outlaw has an abundance of staves
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Head'em up! Move'em out! Sorry...Anytime someone says rawhide, I can't resist.
:)
Jawge
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It's a bow! We pulled it to 28" on the tree. I've drawn it numerous times with no problems. The limbs are 9/16" thick out of the fades. It's taken a lot of set which was expected due to it being mostly early growth. The bow is massive but very light in physical weight.
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It's a bow! We pulled it to 28" on the tree. I've drawn it numerous times with no problems. The limbs are 9/16" thick out of the fades. It's taken a lot of set which was expected due to it being mostly early growth. The bow is massive but very light in physical weight.
Stand it up in a fight with Gun Doc's catalpa bow in the match of the century...bows made from wood that doesn't make bows! After all, what is the use of establishing boundaries if we aren't going to play hopscotch with 'em now and then, right?
Well played, Outlaw! Now post pics for those like me that can't read!
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It might survive tillering, or even for a decent amount of shooting but it will pop rings on the back eventually.
I have also seen bows from staves like this go during tillering, especially in staves with thin rings that look on the end grain like predominantly early wood.
Nice experiment and I can understand why you might want to try it out, but it has been tried by plenty of people in the past(including myself), a rawhide backing before tillering will save the stave, and save you time in the long run.
I wasn't trying to save this bow. I would have burnt this stave if it wasn't for this experiment. I wasn't trying to prove something new to the bow building community. Like I said in my first post, I've seen bows like this before that had been shot a lot. I was having fun with friends at the Tennessee Classic and seeing what would happen with it. I have my answer now. I will find a stave with rings like this but with more late wood and try it again.
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The catalpa bow isn't fairing to well JW.
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The catalpa bow isn't fairing to well JW.
Ruh-roh, Shaggy!
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My assistant Captain Red Beard holding it for the braced picture.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20160428_205957_zpsolnyj0yp.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20160428_205957_zpsolnyj0yp.jpg.html)
The tiller isn't perfect. I didn't spend much time on it. I got the brace evened up some and pulled it straight to 28" on the tree.
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(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20160428_210510_zpsxyrnaqdg.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20160428_210510_zpsxyrnaqdg.jpg.html)
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Head'em up! Move'em out! Sorry...Anytime someone says rawhide, I can't resist.
:)
Jawge
I hope you you are making the whip crack noise when you say that :laugh:
@ Clint:-
Nice experiment.
I can see why thin rings will hold up better. The elongation between adjacent tough* rings is very little if they are close together. With a fat ring there will be a lot of shear force between each tough ring and the soft* ring will gust give up.
* I can never remember which is early growth and which is late... so I'll just call 'em tough and soft :-[ ::).
When I'm explaining what Osage is like to folk whove never worked it, I say it's like alternate rings of cast iron and chalk :laugh:
Del
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That's a good way to describe it Del. This bow is 80% chalk.
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Well, I know you have a lot of osage. If its me I would have chased a ring just to be save, but I don't have that much sage.
Looks not bad so far!
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I have often wondered if just plan glue that really soaks in and penetrates wouldn't tie growth rings together and act like a thicker ring almost like backing. I found your experiment very interesting and if you build another with better hard soft ratio to make real shooter I' ll watch that too. Nobody looks to scared holding them😊
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Look good buddy! It might just full you and last for ever.
Oh and tell captain red beard to take off that girly footwear!
Patrick
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How many pencils is Captn' Red beard carrying these days..? Tell him that Paul says Hi.
Oh,and I think the bow looks pretty good too.
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I saw at least one pencil in the red beard today. Could have been more but I couldn't tell.
I don't think I'm going to finish up the bow. It's a junk piece of wood. It's all early growth. I just wanted to see if it could handle the bend with the back violated.
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Good experiment outlaw.Proves even poor osage makes a bow of some sort.Really can't say that about most other woods without some composite or lamination help.
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you could sinew back it and I bet it would hold reflex and shoot great,, :)
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Might as well pull it to 32"! Don't forget to film it though ;)
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We did Goat and you were right on the mark. Both limbs snapped off at 32" we got a slow motion video of it.
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Haha please text me that vid!
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It broke clean across the back. It didn't break at a ring violation. I cut it off at mid limb and took a picture of the rings. Bubby is posting some pictures for me.
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Here are Clint's pics(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/bubncheryl/Mobile%20Uploads/20160430_212146_zps02j4kdhu.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/user/bubncheryl/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160430_212146_zps02j4kdhu.jpg.html)
(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/bubncheryl/Mobile%20Uploads/20160430_212203_zpsivkyfxsd.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/user/bubncheryl/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160430_212203_zpsivkyfxsd.jpg.html)
(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/bubncheryl/Mobile%20Uploads/20160430_214146_zpsp64rr0lu.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/user/bubncheryl/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160430_214146_zpsp64rr0lu.jpg.html)
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I'm sure you can fix that! ::)
Del
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Bowmo offered to make me a spoon from it.
That wood was total junk. No backing was going to turn it into a shooter.
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I saw that video on Facebook! It didn't say this was ol' paper-rings, but I had my suspicions. It's all good, it's all good.
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You've got plenty of wood like this? Then you owe it to your inquisitive nature to try making one with a backing to see how it will go.
That is an experiment I'd like to see.
Like you said that one had plenty of "chalk" in it, even rawhide and a more even tiller might not have saved it in the long run. A piece of bamboo or hickory I reckon you would go alright.
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Classic to much early growth ring break right there !
sorry I missed the explosion.
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No amount of backing would have turned this bow into something worth shooting. Just because it is osage doesn't make it good bow wood. It was 80% early growth. Now if I can find one with the opposite ring structure, that will be interesting to experiment with.
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No amount of backing would have turned this bow into something worth shooting. Just because it is osage doesn't make it good bow wood. It was 80% early growth. Now if I can find one with the opposite ring structure, that will be interesting to experiment with.
Yeah, your probably right. Still you have made me want to sort through my stock of osage to find some billets with questionable ring quality, for my own experiment. I have a fair bit of thin ring stuff, though from memory the early/latewood ratio is probably 50;50, though no thicker than 1/16"max. Even that would make a lot of difference compared with 80% earlywood.
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Yessir, lotsa learnin at this years classic
Hey..
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Osage doesn't break straight and clean across the back unless it has no structure. This bow was thick and physically light in weight. I was surprised it made it to 32" before it blew. It would have been a waste of good materials to back this bow. Boo or even hickory backing would have crushed it.
My thoughts were that it would not lift a splinter because the rings were so thin and the early/late ratio was way out of whack in the negative direction.
Del, the early "wood" is the honeycomb stuff and the late wood is the hard, slick stuff. Like Clint said, this bow was 80% honeycomb.
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HEY!
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HEY!
What?!?
...oh, hey.
:laugh: ;D :laugh:
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Ok I am still not convinced,, I think it would hold the compression,, if sinew backed it could have made a shooter in my opinion,,
I think if you had been shooting it through a chrono when drawing it to 30 plus,, you would have seen that the lighter mass of the bow was allowing pretty good performance,,,you did prove it would break, but alot of bows would have broken at 30 plus draw,,
maybe the bow would have been a dog,, but I have a feeling there was a shooter in there if sinew backed,,just my thoughts,, I don't think it can be fixed now :)
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Classic to much early growth ring break right there !
sorry I missed the explosion.
Lol I witnessed it .... As load as it was when it exploded I don't know how you didn't hear it ... If I remember correctly Clint said it snaped at 35#
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Take that back ... 32# .... It looked like it would be a 90 # pull as thick as it was
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The bely side looks like it has a bit more latewood to it. With sinew and the pithy part acting like a foam core it seems reasonable that a fast shooter could have been possible.
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To some, the world will always be flat...
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So... It did break.
I had to hit the road brfore the last 32" test.
David
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The bely side looks like it has a bit more latewood to it. With sinew and the pithy part acting like a foam core it seems reasonable that a fast shooter could have been possible.
Don't forget the horn belly and glue a giant siyah on each tip. Of course the limbs will be 2" thick. I'm sure that will be a reasonable fast shooter
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After reading through this thread I find myself mildly amused. Some of you seem to be under the foolish belief that Clint doesn't know Osage. Furthermore I can almost feel some of you giving Clint the stink eye through your screens for the audacity to suggest that there is such a thing as bad Osage and worse...being brazen enough to demonstrate said woods poor qualities. Sorry....that particular piece of Osage was absolutely junk. But that was not the point of the experiment. The point was to see if he could get away with purposely violating multiple rings with thin ringed Osage without it lifting a splinter. That was it....the whole point. It did not lift a splinter. Aside from the ring violations this bow was tillered as normal and not abused for the experiment. It took 3"+ of set on the tillering tree. The only way you would get a good bow out of this junk is glue on a 3/4" thick backing strip of good wood and then scrape all this stuff off the belly of the backing strip. I suspect that the thing only failed in tension after the belly collapsed and hinged focusing all the bend in the one spot. Aside from dry rot, that's about the only way you're gonna get a straight across back break with Osage. Ya'll keep on throwing out how you would of made a good bow of that stave though. It's quite entertaining. Josh
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Nobody suggested anything but an alternate plan for the wood if it had to be used ::)
That's how an Eskimo makes a good bow from Douglas Fir or Spruce.
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I didn't think of that, that would have been pretty good wood for an Eskimo bow,, :)
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What Josh said........
I got a chance to put my hands and eyes on that piece of sage and I agree it was junk......
DBar
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Pretty cool experiment clint. Im gladni got to see it bend and wish i coukd have seen it break, but seeing the aftermath was enough. Im glad you got my good side in the pic too. Lol
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If you guys want to get a junk piece of 80% early growth and try to make a decent shooting bow out of it go right ahead. You can bring it to the Classic next year and we can test it out. Like Josh said, I just wanted to test the growth rings being violated. I got my answer so the test was successful as far as I'm concerned. The bow wasn't worth finishing or trying to save so I thought it would be fun to blow it up. Everyone there seemed to enjoy it. I'd like to do it again next year. We try so hard to not blow up a bow, it's a lot of fun to do it on purpose. I'm thinking maybe a red oak board bow with bad grain. Or maybe a Ryoon inspired poplar bow.
Here is the video of the bow breaking. It's not in slow motion.
(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y406/Gsulfridge/Mobile%20Uploads/th_CE028CE8-A563-4AFE-9BC4-C8A4CD60D8A0_zpsmzgu2ixw.mp4) (http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y406/Gsulfridge/Mobile%20Uploads/CE028CE8-A563-4AFE-9BC4-C8A4CD60D8A0_zpsmzgu2ixw.mp4)
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Any red oak bow would work in my opinion Clint. Especially if I am the one that made it.
Patrick
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The bow wasn't worth finishing or trying to save so I thought it would be fun to blow it up. Everyone there seemed to enjoy it. I'd like to do it again next year.
My dad & mom put on a car show each summer, and one feature they had on and off was an engine blow up contest. Drain all the fluid out of a junker's engine and let it run until it stops. Bet on a time, if you win you get the pot. You could make this a feature at any shoot or bowyers gathering, only using draw length, or number of shots for the test.
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I thought it was a great experiment, and totally agree that it was junk wood and not worth anything more. Clint knows his Osage and has plenty to work with. I saw it drawn back to 28" and was surprised at how light in physical weight it was. Too bad I missed the explosion, but thanks for the video.
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I loved seeing that thing blow! suprising that it just broke across the back instead of at a violation. Next experiment would be to violate good growth ringed osage
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Well done Clint. The way that thing broke goes to show you what it was worth. Good Osage does not shatter like that.
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I loved seeing that thing blow! suprising that it just broke across the back instead of at a violation. Next experiment would be to violate good growth ringed osage
It could answer a whole bucket full of questions, couldn't it? Especially if it was a solid piece of wood, designed properly and executed correctly. Ultimately, I think there would be a lot of various ways to violate growthrings that would not be automatic death sentences, and others that would all but spontaneously blow!
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it would be interesting to know what the cast was on the bow say at 30 inches of draw,,even though the wood was of poor quality, the cast may have been exceptable ,,or equaled the cast of any wood bow with same string follow,,,, I was impressed it drew as far as it did,, and I learned from the experiment myself,, if the bow had been weighed ,,, it would have been informative to know where it would fall as far as mass weight to draw weight,, and if the bows mass and draw weight were in the ball park ,, compared to other osage staves,, etc etc etc,, thank you for posting :)
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I'm still playing Devil's advocate, theoretically if you had a wider stave of the same crap osage, and you gave the bow wider limbs, you could get a safe bow, with better performance and less set. Same principles from Tim Baker's extensive experiments with various woods. Rawhide backing for extra insurance. It may not ever be a favourite bow, but it wouldn't shoot like a total dud either.
That was crap osage but how many bows from other woods are going to survive if you overdraw 4". Hickory and white oak might have a good chance, even good osage might not survive, but ash or maple and many others would blow.
I think OO's experiment shows is how good even a really bad piece of osage is, when compared to other woods. Yep its still a long way from an average piece of osage but it surely must be similar to an average piece of ash or some less dense timber. Really thin rings are not good in any ring porous timber even when they aren't violated or have a better early to latewood ratio, but a wider limb and rawhide would get around those deficiencies.
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Apparently you're not allowed to speculate like that. ;)
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I'm sure Clint will give either one of you guys the take- down bow if you think you can get it to work.
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To late Mullet. One limb tip is headed to Mojam or Ojam, I can't remember which one. Somebody was fascinated with it and wanted to show it around there. The other tip is being made into a spoon. I signed the riser section and stashed it away in Pappy's bow shop.
If it's not raining tomorrow I'll try to find another micro ringed tree to cut. I'll find one with a better ratio to experiment with.
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I'm sure Clint will give either one of you guys the take- down bow if you think you can get it to work.
I'd be all over the other half of the tree. ;)
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Me, too, Pat. I hate to waste Osage.
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PatM and Eddie .................
I had my eyes and hands on this piece of osage and it felt like a piece of water maple (silver maple)in the hand . Making a bow with "good " cast from this wood/tree would be nearly impossible. You would have to have it in you hands to believe it......
DBar
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maybe I am missing something, if the bow was drawing to 30 plus,,, then it would have been able to shoot an arrow,, if the bow was as light in mass as stated, it may have had good cast,, even with 3 inches of string follow,, the longer power stroke compensating for the follow,, ok at least average cast,, :) am I allowed to speculate,, :)
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The limbs didn't have much spring back when I let down on the string after drawing it. It felt as if they had been soaking in water for a few days. The only other time I have seen that in osage was the super curly bow that I tried to make a few years back. It was beautiful wood but garbage for making bows. For you guys speculating on how it could have been turned into a good performing bow I'm not sure what it will take to convince you otherwise. Everyone that saw and felt it in person knew it was junk. I guess it feels a little different through a computer screen ;D
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your are probably right for sure,, I am just speculating for fun, kinda like back seat driving,, :)
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I saw it first hand and it was junk ..... It looked as if it was a 90 pound plus pull bow and was lighter than my red malberry bow. Like Clint said it had no spring back.
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This was an experiment! Clint wanted to see if this thin ringed osage would lift a splinter causing it to fail. The experiment came out successful, the bow did not break due to violated grain. It did fail by breaking across the back...on both limbs simultaneously due to being overdrawn and being weak wood.
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But,but,but,,,,,,Osage is King!
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But,but,but,,,,,,Osage is King!
Exactly Mullet. If it was any other wood it would have broken way before 32" ;D
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Oh, I don't know about that....
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That's all you got Pat? I'm disappointed.
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Oh, I don't know about that....
It was the worst possible quality of wood and was violated through 10 rings or so on the back and it held up to over 30" draw for a 66" straight bow. I'm not sure what other woods could handle that.
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At 30 odd pounds? Elm, Hickory, probably Ironwood. Of course it's harder to judge what is "bad" quality in some woods until you start bending them.
I had a featherweight Elm stave that my intuition said was poor quality and it has been shooting at over 30 inch draw for about 10 years.
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Was the back violated through multiple growth rings?
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No, not that one although someone dropped it and gouged the back and I sanded the gouge out and kept shooting it. Certainly it was through multiple lunar rings. ;)
I have radiused the back of a HHB bow through multiple growth rings with the intention of rawhide backing it and deliberately broke it at well over 30 inches though.
Few people deliberately break bows but when you start doing that it is surprising how far many will go.
Manny broke a couple of Guava bows at around 40 inches of draw. :o
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ok since this is still going I will chime in,, oh boy,,
I realize it was a successful experiment ,,, did anyone ever shoot the bow,,,???
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I tried to break a 42" vine maple bow that had a weak spot.
I pulled it past 30", and it didn't break. Took a little set though...
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ok since this is still going I will chime in,, oh boy,,
I realize it was a successful experiment ,,, did anyone ever shoot the bow,,,???
Nope. I never finished shaping the handle or tips. It wasn't worth doing that work.
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Did you get to shoot the bow that inspired trying this?
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No but I could tell that it was well used. The shelf showed lots of wear. The ratio on that bow was much better than the stave I used. His bow was normal osage dimensions. Mine looked like a 90lb bow.
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I can't do quotes, but I had a Manny Guava bow That came to me with 4 fretts and everytime I pulled it , another one would pop up. It's in my garden right now. I had another one that Ryan O' gave me at the Classic one year that is holding up one of my pineapples.
But, the toughest piece of wood I've ever seen is Casarina, Australian Pine. Parnell brought a little bow up to my house one weekend and I tried to break it. it did around 35" and 50#. We left it leaning against the shelf with the top limb folded over, didn't break, just collapsed. We ate lunch , came back out about an hour later and it had recovered to
, almost it's previous form. But still broke. Hell'aseous, interlocking fibre in that wood.
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Are you saying Manny and Ryan can't make a bow? :-\
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Since when is a man not allowed to do what he wants with his own wood >:D
In all seriousness though all the guys that are questioning his motive haven't you ever just had a piece of wood that you knew would never make a bow? Happens to me all the time and I don't hesitate to break or burn. If I'm following this right he saw a guy that had a bow with thin rings and multiple violations that was finished with super glue. He tried to copy the same situation but the piece of wood had no cast on it....
I love super thin ring Osage but some of it is complete junk. Just like some thick ringed Osage is complete junk. If you've ever sat down and cut up 60 to 80 staves in one shot you'd soon realize that not all Osage created equal.
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Well said Paul. Most of the time if you cut a good looking tree it will be good bow wood. Besides this experiment bow I've had 2 other times where I tried making a bow out of osage that I knew was terrible quality before I started to tiller. One was the super curly grain. It cracked while checking the weight. The other time was the bow that had the bullet stuck in the knot. I had to make that bow over sized to keep it from breaking. I could tell it was junk when I was chasing the ring. the late wood felt dry and crumbly like early wood. I only shot that bow a few times and put it away as a wall hanger.
I cut and split a lot of osage staves. I feel I am a pretty good at judging the quality of a piece of wood. If I thought that violated bow was worth finishing up I would have done it. The grain violations on the back would have been very cool looking under a glossy finish.
Paul, I'm liking the thin ringed stuff more lately. When I first got into bow making I started cutting a lot of osage. I burnt piles of staves because they didn't have thick rings like some of the books recommend. I didn't know any better at the time. I wish I had all those back.
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Not saying that at all, Pat, you must have pulled your thin ringed, Osage spoon out. Ryan made the guava bow for me as a gift one year at the Classic. Shot it all weekend, got home and it broke the first shot. I was really bummed out, it was a great shooting bow. But, I was disappointed in the other bow. I left it in Tenn.
I'm not impressed with Guava, yellow or strawberry.
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Clint, i know you're the man with osage experience for sure. Looking at the vid I never seen a break like this, esp. on osage. I'm with Paul, I love thin ringed osage.
Could it be there was a fungus in the wood, the brek was like a clear cut with no fibers visible. Is there an untypical color in it?
Or is it super light by mass?
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There were no signs of a fungus or any other defect in the wood. It was just a terrible ratio of early/late wood. It was very light compared to the mass.
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Any idea on the density of the wood / specific gravity?
Low density bows should be made wider or they are junk too.
I realize the goal was not to make a shooter but to test if the violations on the back would hold. They did. Good experiment that confirms what Tim Baker's been writing and telling about grain violations: it's the angle of violation that counts.
Still, I would never tiller a white wood low SG bow like that (hardly bending in the outers, most of it in the inner limbs).
Now it seams you're comparing typical .80 sg good osage to something that appears to be just over .45 sg. Sure it looks bulky for its draw weight, but volume is not a good bench mark.
I guess the discussion with PatM boils down to this.
Joachim