Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Clovis6 on April 19, 2016, 09:48:50 pm
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Somewhere on the Primitive Archer website I read that the only way to become a bowyer is to start making bows. So I was wandering around Home Depot a couple of weeks ago and found a 1"x2" piece of oak that looked like it just might make a bow. Having never made a bow before, I figured it was better to learn on a $12 piece of "lumber" than on an expensive Osage or Yew stave. With a little help from the Bowyer's Bible and several "Make a Red Oak Selfbow" websites, I got after it. Was targeting a 40#@28" bow hoping that it would be light enough that I could get away without backing it. Everything was going reasonably well with the tillering process until tonight. At 24" it developed a slight crack on the back of the upper limb and then just exploded. Have attached a couple of pictures just for fun.
So I guess my question is, this. Is there a "safe" weight on an oak bow where you don't have to back it or is it just one of those "must do" things? I have another piece of oak in the basement that I am planning to start work on soon. Also, should I continue learning with this wood or make the investment in something else where the probability of success might be a little better?
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No need to back if the grain is right. You got a bad swirl and run out
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I haven't made many board bows but like Paul said, the trick to board bows is grain, grain, grain and when in doubt, grain. ;) Stick with it and you can make a fine bow from a board. Glad you're here, Bob. This is the best place short of an experienced bowyer's shop to learn how to make a bow.
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Yup, just a stumble. Brush yourself off and find another stick with straighter grain, start over.
Gotta say, she was looking pretty dang sweeeeet until the fatality!
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The break itself indicates the side grain ran steeply from belly to back. It broke along the grain. That side grain is as important if not more so than the back grain.
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Good for you for jumping in, Clovis.
Yes, making board bows is all about the grain.
Look for straight grain tip to tip.
More on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Note that there is a red oak board bow build along and it is a bend in the handle build without and added handle piece. Easier to tiller.
Jawge
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I have made a red oak board in the high 40's range without backing. Its all about grain and tiller. Build yourself a tillering gizmo. It works like a dream. And go slow. If you screw it up its only wood. It literally grows on trees.
George's Website was a huge help to me! Check it out
This one is 48lbs at 28. died black with vinegar and steel wool mixture. My buddy has this bow now and has killed a nice goat with it. It is also made out of a 1x2 with perfect grain. Here is the thread with pictures.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=56021.0
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my advice for you would be to buy a couple ebay staves and have at er.
White wood staves are not that expensive, and a good stave is much more forgiving than an iffy board.
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It also looks to me like most of your bend was at the root right out of the fades. I second the tillering gizmo suggestion--it is the beginner's best friend. It won't tell you everything, but you will definitely seem much better with it where the flat spots and hinges are, and it will help you to train your eye for what to look for. I still lean heavily (but not exclusively anymore) on mine. Use it to mark up the belly then scrape off where the marks are. Exercise the bow. Rinse and repeat. Go slow. once you succeed with one bow you will just want to make another, so what is the rush?
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Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. Will be looking at wood differently from now on.
Not sure if I'm going to try for another oak bow or do something with Hickory, another whitewood, or maybe invest in a piece of straight Osage. I like the idea of not having glue on a separate handle piece and I really am not into gluing together several lams at this stage. Wood recommendations anyone? Also, lots of wood sellers online, need names of a few that people have bought from and been happy with.
In the meantime, can someone provide a picture of the "tillering gizmo" or a link to one?
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Go to the how to section and find The sticky topic titled "Eric Krewson's tillering gizmo". It will tell how to make it. Very simple. Some just use a straight edge without a pencil, but I like the visual mark and the sound it makes on each high point
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If you buy boards that are 1 1/4 you don't need to glue a riser piece on.
Don't think that red oak is inherently inferior wood, it isn't. As already mentioned it was the woods fibers being cut through (when it was milled into a board) that made the bow break. If that same piece of wood had been split out of the tree and the bow laid out with the grain it wouldn't have broken. Board bows (unbacked) can only be made from super straight trees that have been milled parallel to the grain.
Think of wood like a bunch of ropes stuck together with weak glue. Your bows back has to have uncut 'ropes' from end to end. These uncut fibers can then take the tension that you put them under. If the grain isn't dead straight on a board bow then for the back to stay together you are relying on that weak glue..... = broken bow somewhere near mid-fulldraw. Think how easy it is to split firewood with the grain.
Good luck in the future.
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Clovis,
Don't give up on red oak. It is so easy to find and will make a good bow.
I have a couple of other thoughts. I get some once in awhile. :)
Even if you go to hickory, you still need straight grained stock.
If you stay with red oak you can amend that buildalong on my site to 1 3/8" which makes it a bit
easier to shoot and still potentially get 45-50#.
A backing of silk, linen or burlap may not be needed but still give the budding bowyer some peace of mind.
Jawge
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The bowyer's learning curve never stops, it just gets better tillered. Stick with it. Go out in the woods and harvest you some staves and let them dry out completely. As my Jedi bow professor tells me, "A stave either wants to be a bow or a tomato stake!" Remember gorilla in and baby out!
Stay with it! When you finally do get a decent shooter made with your own two hands, it will ring your tuning fork!!
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I don't know if anybody said it yet..but if ya ain't breaking bows ya ain't making bows. all part of the process!! as long as you keep learning.
good board stock can be hard to find...but those boards are out there just takes patience to find the right one.
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That might be right the first year or so your building bows.
More like if your breaking bows your doing something wrong.
I hav'nt broke a bow in 18 years and it was a 110# Osage.
Get a stave.
Staves have so much more of a advange than a board.
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A 3/4" thick board doesn't need built up not to bend, you can just ad some cork to fill your hand if it needs it. Wood preference get an osage stave, why mess with the rest start with the best😉
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That might be right the first year or so your building bows.
More like if your breaking bows your doing something wrong.
I hav'nt broke a bow in 18 years and it was a 110# Osage.
Get a stave.
Staves have so much more of a advange than a board.
You must just be the best or your just a one upper... I know I'm not alone when I say I break one here and there.
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I haven't broke one in 19 years. And the last one that did break was #111.
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That might be right the first year or so your building bows.
More like if your breaking bows your doing something wrong.
I hav'nt broke a bow in 18 years and it was a 110# Osage.
Get a stave.
Staves have so much more of a advange than a board.
You must just be the best or your just a one upper... I know I'm not alone when I say I break one here and there.
+1
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It has been 4 days, 4 hours and 45 or so min since I broke my last bow, making me 2 for 7 so far lol, not having to wait on staves to dry is at least saving me a lot of time and boards are quite accessible for me. Plus with each one a different concept becomes a reality, the handles look a bit better , the nocks become a little more refined.. If what they are saying is true by the time you or I get to a stave it'll be a breeze. crooketarrow I appreciate your passionate contributions on pa, tell it how you see it
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I broke 14 log staves from '89-'92.
Then I ran off 6 or so black locust and white oak bows, all from logs.
When I ran out of staves, I started using red oak boards.
I am not one to brag but ...I will. I found board bows too easy. No challenge.
But I was careful to use straight grained stock.
Jawge
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Osage is about the most forgiving wood, but why bother spending money on such expensive staves when you can find about any other wood much easier and cheaper.
The advantage of board bows is that they save you a lot of cutting and chopping wood from logs into staves and so on. All you need is a table saw, circle saw or band saw, a rasp and a scraper and you can make a shootable bow in an afternoon. So what if the first five or so break, as long as you learn from them you'll make progress. Chasing a ring on an osage (or black locust) stave will teach you much less and take as much time as building five bows, while being boring as hell.
Say you make 5 cm (2") wide inner limbs of 14 mm thick (a bit less than 5/8"), the handle only needs to be 19 mm thick (3/4") to just have a bendy handle 1" wide. There's plenty of boards you can use for those bows. On a 66" pyramid board stave this will give you the required draw weight, if not more.
Gluing a handle to a flat board surface isn't a big deal either. If you find a board that is already the right thickness (some 12-14 mm thick, 1/2"), cut it into a pyramid shape and just glue a handle to it, and it might not even require tillering, like this one here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56290.msg769585.html#msg769585
From the pics you posted, it seemed the outer and mid limbs on the long string weren't bending enough, and the inner limbs a bit too much. That may have contributed to the break. Also, it seemed the limbs were still rather thick (how thick were they?), putting a lot of strain on the back.
So while you're looking for decent white wood staves, try some more straight grained boards and learn from them.
Joachim
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Went back and measured the thickness at various places on the limbs:
Top: 3/4" at the riser fade, 7/16" at midpoint of the limb, and 3/8" at 3" below the nock
Bottom: 11/16" at the fade, 7/16" at midpoint, and 3/8" at 3" below the nock.
It was 1/2" thick at the point on the limb where it broke (a little closer to the riser than midpoint of the limb)
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Could get hickory if you want forgiveness, but you'd probably learn more from a less forgiving wood like oak, no?.. I didn't know about the importance of side grain.
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www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php
This may help you out
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Chasing a ring on an osage (or black locust) stave will teach you much less and take as much time as building five bows, while being boring as hell.
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I would have to disgree...chasing a ring teaches you valuable lessons in using the tools of the trade. It shouldn't take that long to chase a ring and I really don't find it boring...but that up for opinion.
The hardest part of building a bow is having patience to build one. It is not a process to rush through. I have nothing against using power tools but have found it is much easier to ruin a bow when trying expedite the process. Take your time and enjoy the ride! 8)
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It's is true if a bow breaks something caused it. I pertty sure everybody that's built them broke them I know I did. You have to figure out why and learn from it. I haven't tried board bow cut my own staves rush dried a few to start the learning process. I have a bunch curing now. Hang in there when you shoot your bow it's something money can't buy.😊
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I agree with ajooter, now I'm not the fastest guy chaising a ring it gives plenty of knowledge to do it, but to each his own
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Boards are cheap, but you will spend a lot if time looking at grain, at the same time you will learn a lot about grain. When I first started, all I had to use was boards from the wood stores, I broke a lot of "bows," when I finally got a stave, I couldn't believe how much easier it was. I learned a lot about tillering and grain through all those boards. I have a had great luck with hickory boards, even with some violation. You'll make some nice bows from boards, once you learn from those boards, get a nice stave and make that dream bow. No matter what you do, you'll learn a lot, and from the look of that bow you started, you are on the right track. Good luck with your next one
Eric
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High-Desert makes a good point. Board bows will teach you a lot of lessons about grain. Staves will teach you a lot about grain, too. Both make bows. And yet, some people just can't let go of the notion that somehow a board bow is a lesser bow than a stave bow. I know, I used to be one of those people. I started on staves for my first bows. I made about 5 or 6 without a failure. Staves were bloody expensive and western South Dakota really IS a bow wood desert, so I started fooling with boards.
I was so ashamed, that I worked only at night, with the doors and windows shut tight and locked. I was so embarrassed that I wouldn't even turn on the lights...these were worse than the unspeakable "effing"-glass bows, they were *spits on the ground* board bows. Nonetheless, I turned out a bunch of really danged nice hickory kids bows, and even a few dozen mighty fine adult weight shooters! But I was still stuck thinking they were somehow worthy of less respect than a stave bow.
Then I came across the P.A. website and saw people talking about red oak board bows, Jawge's information, and more. I destroyed a hundred bucks worth of red oak without turning out what would qualify as a handicapped tomato stake! Needless to say I was, and remain humbled. Even now, after something over 200 bows, my latest red oak is coming in with more set than someone of my experience should be seeing.
My point, and I have one, even though you can't see it when I wear a hat, is that you should make bows from wood*. Whether that wood is a stave, or if that wood is a board, make a bow from it.
*Unless you have access to nice sections of rattan. If you have access to rattan, then make bows from GRASS!
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lots of great info, sometimes one can't afford a stave,,maybe the 12 dollars is a stretch,,I have been there,, so sometimes the best option is not the best option,,, you can make a bow from a board,, over build it, make it longer and wider than normal,, it will shoot fine,,, it will work,, when you can get one,, stave bows are nice too,, but like all bow making,, it is a trade off too,, a stave won't reveal itself so easy as a board,, and you have to work around unseen flaws in the stave, that takes experience of a different kind,,
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I think a board is a great choice for your first bow, whether you go with a pyramid or flat bow profile, although a pyramid is easier to tiller IMO. Are there any hardwood lumberyards in your area? It could be worth checking into. I found one an hours drive from me that stocks hard maple, hickory, and Eastern Red Cedar boards. Boards straight grained enough for bow making are tough to find even there, and I have look through their entire selection to find a couple that will make the cut. As has been mentioned, hickory will tolerate a bit of grain runoff and is pretty tough to break. O/w keep going back to the big box store and checking their inventory for straight grained red oak. I really like the nice taper you did on your handle fades. Looks way better than my first few.
Most of my bows are from boards, because of availability. I have a small, inexpensive table saw that I can rip backers (usually hickory or bamboo) with and made a form that I can change to glue up Perry reflex, deflex/reflex, and even recurve profiles. Over the years, I've seen those type of bows derided as "plywood" or "cookie cutters" by the less aware. Believe me, I don't care. They are sweet, fast shooting bows when I do my part laying them out and tillering them. Make the bow that you like to make.
I do love osage selfbows, though. Check out ebay or maybe somebody on here will set you up with a stave. You'll want to buy a heat gun to flip the tips (and more than likely do some straightening) 'cuz that is one sweet profile. Good luck on the next one. :)
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You do not have to overbuild a board bow to get it to last, heck i see guys on here blowing up osage stave bows. I can probably build a bow with boards that will outcast many a "stave" bow from guys that spit on boards as low class, jeez people it's all wood
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This thread has been LOTSA fun to read! Ya'll would be a blast round a campfire. Thanks, fellas, for taking the time.
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This thread has been LOTSA fun to read! Ya'll would be a blast round a campfire. Thanks, fellas, for taking the time.
Yeah, we'll all bring our famous failures and have a bloody BONFIRE!
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if you are experienced you do not have to overbuild a bow, if you are a beginner,, overbuilding will give you better chance of success,,most the time,,
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Welcome to the last hobby you will ever have.
Just a tip when scrounging for boards. If you find a local hardwood mill, call ahead and tell them what you're looking for and why. The one I frequent was interested and helpful because it was outside the norm from their typical customers. After my first trip out and letting them watch me pick boards, they knew exactly what I was after. If I need a board now, I just call ahead a day in advance. When I get there they already have a half a dozen sorted out for me to choose from. I would also suggest Ash as an option for you if your lumber yards have it. It's a little easier to work with hand tools than hickory and I prefer it to red oak.
PS. Don't force the wood, ever. If you learn to "listen" it will tell you what it's capable of.
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I still always browse through the red oaks when I go to home depot or lowes. If I find a nice straight one I pick it up. I think boards will always have a higher failure rate than staves. The denser specimens of red oak will tend to work better than the lighter specimens from my experience.
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I was thinking the same thing Knoll, Mr JW obviously is a bit of a raconteur, I am going to have to try and road trip to one of the get togethers on here