Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Dustinhill on April 05, 2016, 12:52:02 am
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Hi, I'm in the process of finishing up a short hickory d bow with the help of everyone on this site and I encountered a problem that I thought might be more appropriately posted here. When shooting the bow in, I noticed that my arrow which was fletched with goose feathers and sinew, (I posted it under viburnum arrow a little while ago) had left small cracks in the side of the bow (not the back) after a few shots. They definitely weren't there during Tillering. Is this normal? Right now I have no handle wrap and would like to keep it that way if possible. Has anyone else experienced this?
Thanks,
Dustin
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Yes, probably from arrows being too weak spined or your release causing the arrows to slap into the bow somehow. It's been plaguing me for a while.
(It might be for a different reason?...)
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Thanks loon, glad to know I'm not the only one.. the arrow spine being too weak would make sense, and my release, particularly with the new bow because it's heavy is far from consistent. Do you think maybe a buckskin handle would work to protect the bow? Any other options?
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Proper spined arrows would be your best bet to start with.
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Now I would have said it's arrows that are too stiff ??? Could this be caused by either too much or too little spine? A while back someone on here said(unless my memory is wrong) that if an arrow is too stiff you can hear it as it whacks into the side of the bow. I know I've seen the youtube where the guy goes lighter and lighter until the arrow breaks and I can see where the really light ones could leave a mark as they snake around the bow. So now I'm left wondering. My arrows are rounding off the edge of my rest a bit also and I was going to try lighter arrows.
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Thanks everyone, the arrow didn't shoot too far off to the left or anything... I'd imagine it was too light because it was a long arrow with a relatively heavy tanged broad head. I'm going to make another arrow soon, but I'll keep the middle fatter than the ends so it will be easy to adjust spine. I'll post pictures and let everyone know what I figure out. Thanks again for the tips. I'm excited to be learning so much and hope to be able to pass the knowledge along!
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when applying your fletching, is the cock feather oriented so that the stiff side of the arrow is towards the bow? If not the arrow will not snake around the bow properly causing contact with the bow.
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Now I would have said it's arrows that are too stiff ??? Could this be caused by either too much or too little spine? A while back someone on here said(unless my memory is wrong) that if an arrow is too stiff you can hear it as it whacks into the side of the bow. I know I've seen the youtube where the guy goes lighter and lighter until the arrow breaks and I can see where the really light ones could leave a mark as they snake around the bow. So now I'm left wondering. My arrows are rounding off the edge of my rest a bit also and I was going to try lighter arrows.
Try drawing at different draw lengths, and shooting at short range and see where the tail of the arrow is (where the arrow points) when it hits the target, how where it is pointing changes depending on draw length. I think tail left when shooting off the left side means the arrow is weak, and it also slapped the bow causing the tail to go left.
Thanks to a member here for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuzeMoQIlQ
Interesting. I wonder if a stiff arrow can also cause slap. I've been trying to make stiffer and stiffer arrows to prevent it. though it sort of makes sense as well, like the arrow would pivot and the tail would hit the handle anyway
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when applying your fletching, is the cock feather oriented so that the stiff side of the arrow is towards the bow? If not the arrow will not snake around the bow properly causing contact with the bow.
I don't get this about the stiff side, what is the stiff side? Is this not only with bamboo arrows? So can an arrow bend more easily one way than the other, without rotating it?
So far for bamboo arrows, I just rotate it until I find a part that is less bendy, and it always seems to bend equally both ways. but I guess that doesn't make sense with people recommending to nock the arrow the other way... maybe I do need a spine tester
I wonder how different the arrow dynamics are with thumb release vs 3 fingers
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Cane/boo arrows and some wooden arrows will have a stiff side to them, usually not a lot of difference but enough to make a difference. Watch u tube videos of arrow paradox in slow motion and note how it appears to swim around the bow riser and that will help you understand why it needs to have the stiff side towards the riser.
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So can an arrow bend more easily one way than the other, without rotating it? Or does it depend on how it's rotated?
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does not have to be rotated. if the arrow is straight fletched it will not rotate when shot. the left or right helical fletching is what causes the arrow to spin left or right. The spine is the strength of the shaft as related to bending under a load. you are correct that it will bend more one way than the other. you spine test it to find the weakest side( where it bends the most) and that determines the spine of the arrow which must be correctly matched to the bow draw weight and draw length as these three factors help to tune a bow to the arrows or vise versa which makes the bow more accurate thus improving your accuracy with the bow.
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Good, thanks
I have however heard that feathers do make the arrow spin a bit even if straight fletched. I didn't mean spinning in flight, but whether what you meant was 1 or 2. I assume you mean 2.
(http://i.imgur.com/bazshKj.png)
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Wow that's a lot of information! Thanks everyone! Any suggestions on where to start as far as testing and tuning my arrows? I have some seasoned shoots approximately 3\8 thick x 30" long, back sinew, turkey wing fletchings and some tanged medieval style broad heads I forged. My first arrow, the one which started this thread, was approximately 27in long with a smaller broad head. I thought a longer arrow would work better with the low brace height on my short bow (45-50# at 16") Any thoughts on an initial size to start and what to do from there?
Thanks,
Dustin
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I would bare shaft test. Stand about 4 or 5 yards from a target, shoot shafts with light arrowheads. If tail goes left (assuming you're an average archer, left side of bow), I would guess that the spine is weak, and you need to draw less or reduce the weight of the arrowhead. If stiff, draw more or increase arrowhead weight. Once they fly pretty straight, then I'd fletch.. but that's just me. Maybe I'd try different distances as well before fletching like 10 and 20 yards and see how they fly.
Besides that, a spine tester should be useful. If you're way off then adjusting arrowhead weight probably won't help much.
Something.
What sucks is I'd like arrows that can be nocked either way with the Y style fletchings so I can nock without looking and maybe shoot pretty fast one day.. maybe I'll just find a side such that the stiffness is the same both ways
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Straight fletched arrows will spin due to the different texture of either side of the feathers.
The stiff side of the arrow should go against the bow. All shafting has a stiff side. with doweled arrows the grain edge will go against the bow. For safety sake only one side of that doweled arrow can safely go against the bow because of the grain "flames should point forward.
On cane arrows the nodes will be up or down and because of the natural taper only one other side can go against the bow.
Are all of your arrows hitting the bow? The ones that do, try flipping it over and shooting it with the cock feather in, towards the bow.
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Definately, a proper spined arrow is a must.
But have you also considered the shape of your grip? Anyone who knows me knows that I often refer to "Archery: The Technical Side." In it, they recommend a handle of the cross section shown below. It is large enough to be comfortable, and yet presents as little wood to the arrow as possible, actually making it possible for the bow to not be quite as finicky over spine weight.
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Thanks everyone, I'll make some arrows this weekend and try to err on the stiff side so I can reduce the spine gradually and see what happens. I will also experiment with bare shaft tuning, I'll post pictures and results asap. And wooden spring, that handle design seems very practical but I unfortunately can't do that with my current bow as it is a short plains style d bow. I'll keep it in mind for the next one.
Thanks,
Dustin
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WS, the back is up in that drawing, right?
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WS, the back is up in that drawing, right?
Correct. Sorry for the confusion there. The 7/8" is the dimension of the back of the handle.
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I saw something similar in TBB, I think. It was just the arrow pass, not the whole handle. The idea was to make the arrow touch the bow as close to the back as possible. Makes it think the brace height is higher.
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The handle shape doesn't have as much to do with it as much as properly spined arrows do. An Eastern Woodland style bow has a wide, thin handle(rectangular cross section) and properly spined arrows fly well from them.
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The handle shape doesn't have as much to do with it as much as properly spined arrows do. An Eastern Woodland style bow has a wide, thin handle(rectangular cross section) and properly spined arrows fly well from them.
I didn't intend to emphasize the one over the other, in fact both handle shape and arrow spine are important according to the physicists who contributed to the book.
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The picture shows an almost trapazoidal cross section right (birds eye view) I want to make sure I'm looking at it correctly. Basically the narrowest and thinnest part is where the arrow pass would be. Is that correct?
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The arrow would pass on the right or left. The top is the back
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Ohh, by the stiff side, is this what was meant?
But then the flipping arrow so cock feather goes towards bow thing doesn't make sense..
so it's both
(http://i.imgur.com/Ajt52u9.png)
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Nope, those are ends, not sides :D Don't feel stupid, I'm still a tiny bit unsure of this but I can't come up with a way of phrasing my question.
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To clear up a little confusion on the picture...
If you cut your bow in half through the center at the handle and then look at where you just cut, the 7/8" wide portion is the back of the bow, and the 3/8" portion fits in your hand between your thumb and index finger.
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OK try this. In the picture you're looking at the end of the arrow. Imagine the arrow is supported at both ends. Push down on "a" and measure the force. Now rotate the arrow 90 degrees. Push and measure again. Do this until you find the stiffest one. Say it's "d", side "D goes against the bow. You do this before you fletch.
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Cool thanks got it!
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Nice illustration DC a picture is worth 1000 words but with the picture you need far less words to convey the message. I agree 100% with the explanation, that was what I was trying to explain at the beginning of the thread.