Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: arachnid on March 19, 2016, 04:02:23 pm
-
Hi Guys.
I got my hands on a very straight grain white oak board. I wanted to get as many bows as I can out of this board so I cut it to 1 3/4" wide staves. I want to make two 30# bows (one practice bow for me and one for a friend starting archery). I was thinking on a pyramid design but I'm not sure about the width- is it too narrow? I've made a pyramid bow out of white oak but it was 2" wide at the fades. Should I make a parallel limb bow? (I'm making one bow for a 29" draw and one for 26" draw, both stiff handle)
Second question- I got some short pieces about 1/2" thick out of that board. Can I splice them and make a bendy handle?
Third and last- I want to add some reflex to the bows. I have bad experience with boiling the tips. Will steam work better?
Thanks
Dor
-
You should be fine at that thickness, start with the limbs even taper about 5/8" thick to start and tiller to weight from there.
Soak the tips a few hours and then steam 45 min and you should be hood i kind of steam/boil mine
-
1 3/4" is plenty wide for a 30# bow. For the 29" draw make it a few inches longer.
-
:'(thanks guys.
How about making bendy handle from spliced billets ?
-
Not the best idea, make a nice pyramid with stiff handle and flipped tips, plus white oak likes a nice belly toasting
-
When do I toast the belly? Before/after/during tillering?
And about steam bending- How much time to I need let the bow dry again before shooting it?
-
I`ve noticed that one stave is better then the other.
This one has a bit of a run-off on one limb (on the rest of the board the grain is straight):
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WZr3sOAfhc1rBrkoLWP5UmxdFb-mCzEH-rUef-cK8rCB_esdco60jCXWS65U5yEI8zS6nIo1tv-tB2oVHGd_p1ngri3zyQTDOLV9osCzsFksW5KY1vN_nnu21C-17bAOj4T4M008VUcAryxv8-vxgwi-9Y1TVG0Wsl5QJv7yNoGAUgzOrpqby5DQVLf5nH9xOP9ZFhX5rr-rdLNB5rtswhAQhuSJTWiXLP6zBz2Vm2otPWpjKPb3u09hlfGDRgVvTxYofzF5SwfJQauwiktiJ49BvchSrJbXgOYBRKtkdM3e3ZKpb4Bkuu7Oh_igM_H1rBf9nmSnXpb111BcuKEHOuSpa_QBdaQaADvdA2nt1jZnenR6s5-VWtqng6Mz7AufSFI6NkXvpMcXOXIzUYaleSR_ug00niyOfdHa3LSX-xeXlIiyCBvGktA3LlSKtake_UXEiKDVMyGaBLah5sKusJZdsdsh1WE4pqQXh151Xt0pSJcCsVauuzGNhZlHIexm7vVSVNziRM35xW-f7ABLMM2PTK5pcbTjEnaynFOdA78GmCvjIPm4jCP8tVd6adHyqqdv=w538-h955-no)
What do you say? Can I leave it unbacked or should I back it (I have a paper-thin stripe of rewhide for backing)?
-
I see grain running out on a severe angle half way down the board?
-
I see grain running out on a severe angle half way down the board?
What do you call a "severe angle"? There is a grain run out, that for sure. I don`t know if it`s "severe".... :o ;)
I guess I should back it?
-
A few run outs are ok. But I see at least 5-6 before it gets blurry. I would back it, but I'm scared of boards. Nothing gets me running the other way like bending wood in a direction nature didn't intend.
-
Since I have no execs to staves, it's board or no bows for me :-\
I'll try to take a clearer picture.
-
Just don't let my fears scare you! We all have our own quirks.
-
How is the grain along the sides? That is as important as along the back.
Rawhide will help prevent splinters from lifting but it won't prevent a lethal flaw.
-
If the edge grain is good i would go ahead with it, your not building a heavily strained bow at 30#.
-
Here are some more pictures:
From the other way:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qr9WK_4QITP9F3YhKFQIia2f0zPMEYBCIqrI_f5c-DugCDgGsPiKEs0UfOHttpdrV0cRuoNF7tiHNCOhQWa-xSHet7d2PnK_TxHUa_ELzST0Z6PBFKdeY21LpoAogE1OC5djPS4RztR6q9wS7R9pMXrdo8n1N4WqKwh4ngIG8dJBAXc2mm6qiPwbmRilc3iIr2o42EHOyRUpfd2cAixvRYwXWn_3SgRHgQS8RMH1MyCrppbfZM2uQFkm0K9WeaePWGHUxrcOCyL9311gj0LmEUNsbpt6azZI-BEu2wSk1Px6IL5d2Dy2YdQ_UrzIk-C1XgJJR13GQluPB4-KidQtjadhd9nevno2GWxGu6HVEgzPqkoma0BoQkzDzWnvr96DqETa7EiU0ivpr7woMAxE12erucv9-dHxWmUznMKh661FbjTeoA8qCcOl_iHI-SSJOBGmbhCeFwJs470c0uFtw1MRIWDl9ou1hTNwi33tfO-oSNwcjWC1kTtR37BZDJ3MM_SdQSyH4CKmdXRIhL-8Zf3TbH7tTlcnFkiyUXesRkUYqTQWdDQu5WTJ6j36rf1Iw0w0=w538-h955-no)
From above:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xOJqjSAAncPzJIYBZm6hJ6ZmJOLTXWfShDOyNQ_NUKZ5prOHUwNMuRWntXJ6NuMSCBetOi0QhKKX4nrgO7ZmRNbxScwRJ4d19pRvzDam4dUk0P14ah5hO89Nyy0dSbqvK3-Q6MZS1_f7e60fBXA0DXaup1ZnQ8Slly9yVDrFLWnkJDlCdMo57lMMDUbRI9X1QBIF-72JYs35kLcd5NlEtj2gMCItcfzsW47fO7c9S1-38C0y0h6-1QhSLi1-MROiqSby4pexSXMf8x3QMB9Mcq4IYuEkCZq-ClfTxQ4Bz0gM3xGlECcJvPzTp47YGxeXZ9pm6u9sEWLbQHkllCNINc6R2mIjTE7MPGNESVUtP5_LwMbZtiH41I4oIRG57lr_qtf9Kj-I_8hOPfeVOv0MfdvUAFUA8wXSOp83GQFX1LiUs-sxAiAEbmx6qG0fjYLc3Bet431H6LpI8nhuKi1IxdpVa9a3gp0a7K9AhLPjSTBXr6Z8ZlcowmB65znQfPAsOLAnGK-GcAl1MMG5OJfTyv21Hrk0YHIX4j_Htw0GHMmW2xfq2jTtGJ6K5fgDCkp3gmlB=w538-h955-no)
Edge grain:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blO1BxLgUxy0-f0KcTDYtleKcSZwC9Ok7RdXFw5vkPw2mBk0kai8TEZZGih8TKji2jjqmlcy70ZbMQ_Hvffbn1-Kapv0_3RJzRx0xj-ZKeFsM8ZkY-_6qV7a5R8LpSQ4-g8fkTPqkZAvr1xh8zSZXSpAYmiNtXhF3WEY7B4kUB3_QpkQHKPjRdD3QMdrCR8BvFnaaAj3agwdwT5AapE80zAaDgeg6mpgL3BCKk0lagux1msHTa85aF0tqWP9redIWgwFI1OApg6qEylYsbvg6y8JiFaOpOPpSjaJllsMhuoahsQE0w_JWBRjxf-MqGMDvf9yS2Ed36YWxZx5LUnxeUBllwAXX0L-l0LS2z3oxVUNgXTLGp-O65BPDW9YGNEkVG2NSaksoR_uJaeO00X9AS0oiJWKGeSkhR_37G0ZiBT4RHssjlAg_3UGYpuFJTYg1Osx3QCYpJyWmziZ8oC2bfyYQO0IVPdQiF4qwZcR-52Rzg3LfHanjEqOSQK9P_d0N00lQUINjYMkjvR99T71itRGwTB57mDn1Xg2uaMBlskmX9WzjIBUwFJyeD-hTyUbzUic=w538-h955-no)
I can spot 4 run-outs in the intended limb profile.
There question is not should I use it or not, it`s should I back it or not.
(I just realized that after 4 years of building bows, I still have SO much to learn.... thank God for PA :laugh:)
Dor
-
Dor, after over 30 years of building bows I still have a lot to learn
If these staves were mine I would back them both. My preference would be a good hardwood backing but rawhide would be better than nothing. Most of us here in the US and parts of Europe and elsewhere have pretty good access to bow building materials so it is hard for us to imagine what it would be like to use only what we can get, no matter what. If that is what you have to build bows, by all means, build a bow. If it fails, learn from your experiences and make the next one better.
-
Thanks Pat.
I don't have a hardwood backing right now but I do have bamboo. My last bows were all BBI's (it's a lot easier to fing straight grained ipe and I really like that combo) but I wanted to try something different, not a laminated bow.
I'll just go for it and see what happens
-
Can't see your second batch of pics so that didn't help me to evaluate what you've got in store.
I don't have good access to either rawhide or hardwood backings (or the power tools to help me apply it to a back), and I don't like pounding and shredding sinew.
But I regularly back decrowned staves with plant fibers or occasionally with linen (flax) canvas. Works like a charm for me.
Few people use it, probably because they use the above alternatives.
Of plant fiber backings, I prefer sisal for backing. When I take a single fiber of 15 cm, I can stretch it till it breaks around 15.4 cm. That means it stretches e-nearly 3%, which is plenty for a normal bow.
It's not overly strong like flax or hemp but more like bamboo, so it doesn't overpower the belly. Works best on wide bows, so a pyramid design would be pretty good. I get the sisal from hay bale twine and apply it like sinew. It's coarser than sinew and more stubborn, so the hide glue needs to be less runny / tackier than for sinew (or flax). If you add 15 g of shredded sisal per limb in bundles of 20-25 cm long you get a layer of c. 1.5 -2 mm thick in the center, which is enough for a 50# bow.
To patch lifting splinters, I prefer raw flax, as it is extremely strong and very soft. Occasionally, I back a bow with flax, but only a very thin layer, otherwise it forces the entire underlying wood into compression. In my experience, flax has the tendency to lift with lower grade hide glue, especially if not wrapped tightly with bicycle inner tire after application. Makes me nervous when it does. Here in Belgium, flax is sold in bundles of 300 g (resembling long blond hair ??? in a plastic tray) for 5€ a bundle in any DIY store.
As for your boards: I recently made a board bow from norway spruce (about the least wanted bow wood in the world). Grain didn't run off as much though. same width as your intended bow (4.5 cm). Pulls 35# at 28". Seeing your white oak boards and the low draw weight, I would dare to just go for it, bare backed... But I couldn't see the detailed pics so I might change my mind.
Maybe you could turn the grain runoff to your advantage. Mentally peel off the rings where the run-off is, and see what you get. You may end up with a nice trapezoidal cross-section, which would fit white oak perfectly. You could even cut the pyramid diagonally (leave one side of the board as its current edge, and vice versa on the other end, so as to have less grain runoff. But of course, the lateral grain runoff is more an indicator of harder to see grain violation on the back.
Lots of 'if ... then's. Good luck with it.
Joachim
-
Maybe you could turn the grain runoff to your advantage. Mentally peel off the rings where the run-off is, and see what you get.
Joachim
Thanks.
I thought about trapping the back, but I don't understand what you mean by "mentally peel off the rings". Can you explain please?
-
Basically, it's explained already very well in TBB2: board bows, picture on top of P41.
If you're going to build a bow from a wonky board, this chapter is a must-read. It will tell you all about how to read wood grain in boards.
-
It'sbeen a while since I read TBB. I'll give it a look. Thanks
-
Ok, so I went on and built my bow unbacked, and it hold up fine. Finished at 34#@26" which is well enough for a practice bow.
Now the problem is that I started with a deflexed board and now after tillering, the bow has 3" of string follow. I think I've made a mistake- The bow is 67" ttt and I left the last 6" of each limb stiff. I think it caused the limbs to overstrain and take unnecessary set.
Question is- will reflexing the tips help or will it cause the limbs more strain resulting in more set?
Thanks
Dor
-
You didn't say how much deflex, but if its anything over an inch then 1" deflex plus 2"set equals 3" string follow. Two inches of set is really not bad. I'd say you did fine. You could heat treat it to reduce the string-follow.
-
You didn't say how much deflex, but if its anything over an inch then 1" deflex plus 2"set equals 3" string follow. Two inches of set is really not bad. I'd say you did fine. You could heat treat it to reduce the string-follow.
Haven't thought of that this way.... But bottom line- I have 3" of string follow. Will steaming some reflex help or overstrain the limbs?
-
White oak (or at least the European counterpart, pedunculate oak but they are closely related) likes belly tempering.
Put it on a caul, and toast it to add some light reflex (10 cm). It will lose most of the reflex later on, but the string follow can be reduced considerably.
For simplicity, you could also reverse-brace it and add a stick between string and handle to increase tension during tempering. But that's a bit more risky than a caul for belly cracks, and it eventually keeps the reflex even less as the reflex is typically more pronounced mid-limb and less in the other parts of the limb.
I always trap the back of oak and ash bows (if they aren't crowned by nature already) for the same reason, about 2/3 of the width on the back versus full width belly.
Heat-treating will make the belly stronger, which is what you need. Steaming it out won't change that, and it's more difficult too IMO.
-
The grain looks good for 30#.
When I build a 30# bow I rip it about an inch and 1/8 wide. I let the handle bend and double the draw and add 20%. Gotta go. More on my site.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
-
Sounds like a plan.
I'd love to have some plans for a caul since I don't have one and never made one.