Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on March 14, 2016, 11:12:49 pm
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Well I admit I dont know all there is to know yet but I feel I know enough to try for what I have been working towards. 49" ttt 1 3/4 wide, 60#@28. Going for decrowned sapwood back. Thinner tips, recurves static with stiff handle, deflexed fades, and will match what set I think it will take so it takes none. Looking for speed and power on this one.
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I'll be watching this.
Be sure to wear a helmet, eye protection and your athletic cup. ;)
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Lol, I will be sure too.
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DO IT!!!👍
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Good luck with that one. :-\
Pappy
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Might want to wear full body armor🏹💣☠ lol. I will be following along. Never know till you try😀
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I hope you use a rope and pulley. Jawge
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Good luck, you're gonna need it
P.S. If you are looking for power and speed then you are looking in the wrong direction, unless it's for flight shooting
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Power and speed are relative to the last few I built. If I can get average straight D bow performance from this I will be absolutely ecstatic. Out of curiosity though, why do you say that?
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Not sure what Marc meant but , but my thoughts are You may get power and speed for a few shots if it holds together but you just can't bend a piece of wood that far that is that short and expect it to hold up for very long. ;) :)
Pappy
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Thanks for the reply pappy. Its a tall order I know but I really believe that if done using the right design these bows can be reliable shooters. We will see though.
Ok, im off to decrown a stave and steam the handle to reflex. Then go from there.
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Trying something difficult is admirable. You know it may not work out, that's part of the deal. Every piece of current knowledge is based on someone earlier imagining an uncertainty exists.
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Sleek...I'm following here and would like to see your set up to steam and bend those handles.If you don't mind.Handy thing to have in someones' tool box of know how.Good luck with your adventure.Hope it works for ya to your satisfaction.
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That's a tall order, best of luck to you Kevin
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Beadman, I just lay it over a pot and use aluminum foil. The only thing I do different is I use a short caul and have the stave mounted to it with clamps while steaming. I tighten it while its steaming so no need to rush to the caul after getting it off the steam.
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Thanks Aaron.
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I see ok.Thanks.
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(http://www.dadbod2boxer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/you-can-do-eet.jpeg)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_092300_zpsoqid3szn.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_092300_zpsoqid3szn.jpg.html)
Since you asked here it is. Real simple. Somewhat effective. I do like that I can just keep cranking the handle little at a time without over stressing the wood this way.
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Thats funnyb urufu.
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when you get the bow done, if your scared to shoot it, I will shoot it for you! I'm done having kids, I have a good disability plan through work, and shooting a short bow that strong sounds like a blast! I'm betting that you have good success and I'm looking forward to seeing that bow.
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Getting power out of the bow is not a problem but short bows like that generally don't do as well in speed with hunting weight arrows
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Thanks mark. Is it because they are all torque and no horsepower?
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I would defiantly sinew back it. That's what make the incredible short, narrow, steeply reflexed, and very powerful ottoman bows survive
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when you get the bow done, if your scared to shoot it, I will shoot it for you! I'm done having kids, I have a good disability plan through work, and shooting a short bow that strong sounds like a blast! I'm betting that you have good success and I'm looking forward to seeing that bow.
Sidmand, im also done having kids but that doesnt mean im willing to risk my boys. Biggest problem for me is I dont draw 28. This could get comical.
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Not enough limb to store enough energy to deliver a 550 grain arrow with the same authority a 64" bow of the same specs will. Hence the reason it MIGHT spit a 300 grain flight arrow a good ways......once :)
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I would defiantly sinew back it. That's what make the incredible short, narrow, steeply reflexed, and very powerful ottoman bows survive
Most everyone would sinew back this bow. But a sinew back is not my goal. I want to prove it can ( or cant ) be done self bow style. Sinew would no doubt improve it, especially on string tension.
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Not enough limb to store enough energy to deliver a 550 grain arrow with the same authority a 64" bow of the same specs will. Hence the reason it MIGHT spit a 300 grain flight arrow a good ways......once :)
Not enough limb..... well, I can see how that works but exactly how is limb measured and how much is enough? Im trying to measure it by amount of set taken to see if its over stressed or not.
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Would a 50# coil spring compressed from 12" to 4" recoil faster and with more power than a 2" spring compressed to 1.5" at 50#?
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Another consideration, on a larger scale but the same theory. War bows. They aren't 85" long because they are heavy, they are 85" long because they chuck a relative heavy arrow with a lot of power.
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Would a 50# coil spring compressed from 12" to 4" recoil faster and with more power than a 2" spring compressed to 1.5" at 50#?
Wouldnt the shorter? Its smaller so it has less area to store the same energy. That makes it have more psi than tje larger spring even though they both have 50#. Also it being smaller it has less leverage against it so it should expand faster. Right?
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Another consideration, on a larger scale but the same theory. War bows. They aren't 85" long because they are heavy, they are 85" long because they chuck a relative heavy arrow with a lot of power.
I always though yew just couldnt handle the long draw and weight without the extra length? I never worked yew so I dont know.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_102812_zpsllecn9sy.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_102812_zpsllecn9sy.jpg.html)
Reflex is in. Time for stave reduction.
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Nope, its all about the power stroke sleek, the longer spring wins every time. Yew will take almost anything any premium bow wood will.
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So sleek how many arrows is it going to take to be a success? I can't see this bow having a long shelf life
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If you go to the flight shoots you will see shorter bows for lighter arrows and longer bows for heavier arrows. You might get a good light arrow bow out of 49" but you won't have much power for heavier arrows. Horn bows are a different matter because they can simply bend more and allow for more reflex. A wood bow would have to be extremely wide and thin to duplicate the bend of a horn bow. The bow limbs would flop around and be very inefficient.
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Im certain it about the power stroke. No argument there. But isnt the draw length also the power stroke? Math applies still here. Force times distance. Distance being the draw length and force being the draw weight. Increase eith and you increase power.
What about longer limbs makes for more power, or ability to use the power?
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So sleek how many arrows is it going to take to be a success? I can't see this bow having a long shelf life
Honest answer? I dont know.
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Im certain it about the power stroke. No argument there. But isnt the draw length also the power stroke? Math applies still here. Force times distance. Distance being the draw length and force being the draw weight. Increase eith and you increase power.
What about longer limbs makes for more power, or ability to use the power?
Of course draw length helps, but it doesn't equalize. All things equal a 50 @ 28 will out shoot a 50 @ 25.
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Sleek all power strokes are not created equal even if they are the same distance. Longer limbs store more energy, they build slower pounds per inch. Recurves can make up for some of this but only up to a point. If I were you instead of going for 60# I would just go for whatever I could get with an acceptable amount of set. You might wind up at 45# but a good shooter. You might even get your 60# but the point is once you cross a line your bow starts turning to junk.
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Thats actually encouraging badger. Thanks. It tells me I can measure the set and so long as I keep the bow under stressed by using set as a measure tool, I can do it. How much set would be acceptable?
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I think you can do it but you need to be way more" Scythian" in your reflex and deflexed areas and also have wider working limbs.
I would switch your wood type to one that will allow you to achieve those bends more readily.
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Another question id like to add, ignoring limb width, how thin is to thin per amount of draw weight? At what weight/thickness ratio do things get too floppy? I say too floppy because I am certain all limbs get rubbery on release.
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I think you can do it but you need to be way more" Scythian" in your reflex and deflexed areas and also have wider working limbs.
I would switch your wood type to one that will allow you to achieve those bends more readily.
Maybe on the next one.but how do you mean more scythian? Stronger more pronounced curves?
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_120511_zpsrmyiycyi.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_120511_zpsrmyiycyi.jpg.html)
This may cause a problem. Its 8" from the tip and right on the edge.
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As a result of that knot I had to narrow the bow down. Its 1.5"wide now. Gonna have to drop the weight some for sure.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_130101_zpsq19lxjx2.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_130101_zpsq19lxjx2.jpg.html)
My boiling technique needs help.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_131747_zpscdjdxxf8.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_131747_zpscdjdxxf8.jpg.html)
Time to deflex the fades.
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Im certain it about the power stroke. No argument there. But isnt the draw length also the power stroke? Math applies still here. Force times distance. Distance being the draw length and force being the draw weight. Increase eith and you increase power.
What about longer limbs makes for more power, or ability to use the power?
The 50# is only available at the full draw point, it drops as the arrow moves. The rate that it drops is the key. Because ideally the string is pushing the arrow all the way to brace height. In reality that may not happen.
When we say a particular 50 pound bow has a lot of stack, and also low early string tension, we are describing a situation where most of the force applied to the arrow drops off rapidly in the first few inches of travel. So the total amount of energy imparted to the arrow by the bow is low.
Very short limbs on high weight wood bows are more likely to stack to reach that designed pound figure than a similar design bow with longer limbs. This and the above are big generalizations, but I'm trying to explain one reason why one 50 lb 28 inch draw bow can impart a different amount of energy than another 50 lb. 28 inch draw bow. The draw length and full draw poundage are only the initial state of the power stroke, but stroke itself can look very different to the arrow as it proceeds.
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I understand that and thats why fd curves are mapped out. Now as for stacking, doesnt recurves remedy that problem?
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Not always. A limb can only bend so far before it starts pulling rather.
Next static bend you make. Try a 45 minute steam, not boil, and have your caul and clamps ready and right near your stove. Make the bend in one strong motion and clamp it. Its not proper I'm told, but its worked for me many times over. I've never had a crack like that, just a few slight tears that were all worked out in the end. Ive bent osage, yew, elm and hackberry all the same.
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Thanks for the advice. One strong pull makes sense to me. Im sure I am missing something simple on these recurves. So to help I am posting a full draw chart on the last one I built.
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I would add don't taper your width and thickness from the to be bent area to the tip. You basically peeled up an unsupported portion.
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Exactly I usually try get my tips about 5/8" square and I try to get one ring the last foot on osage or locust.
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I don't know what wood you are using but for that short of a bow you want to use nothing but premium wood, Osage/Yew, with no faults. Sinew in this case would help but that is defeating the purpose of this exercise
P.S. I'm not terribly fond of reflexed handles on high performance bows and believe they are a detriment
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sleek, you need to make those three curves all at the same time like Lukasz does.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_164957_zps4bmv8vsx.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_164957_zps4bmv8vsx.jpg.html)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_165648_zps3pto34ti.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_165648_zps3pto34ti.jpg.html)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_170430_zpsspdsqpqf.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160315_170430_zpsspdsqpqf.jpg.html)
What do you know, it broke. This one is gonna get bamboo backed. Damn.
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It cracked earlier when I deflexed the fade. I left room for the back to be reduced bellow any cracks. I ground below it but this popped up right where the crack used to be. I have bamboo but wonder about sinewing it.
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I admire your determination,, I feel lazy making my straight tip self bows,, hmmmm,,they are fun to shoot though,, :)
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Thanks. Its fun.
So with bamboo, do I leave the side profile as it is or Perry reflex it some?