Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Del the cat on March 07, 2016, 05:59:21 am
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I had a lady from the Netherlands contact me discussing bows.
She's made her first bow from Hazel and asked for a tiller check. I gave her some advice and she's re worked it a tad since the pic.
It was 33#.
Anyhow I was impressed with it for a first bow and she said I could post it on here to see if you agreed with my critique.
I'll report back and maybe she'll be encouraged to join, I did tell her that is is the place for good honest expert advice rather than just reying on my quirky views ;)
Del
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Looks a little flat mid left limb and a little to much at the fad on the right, over all looks pretty good to me. ;) :)
Pappy
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Is that bow "inside out"? Looks like the back is flat ands the belly is bumpy.
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Is that bow "inside out"? Looks like the back is flat ands the belly is bumpy.
I wondered about that too.
I think she's maybe left the knots a bit proud on the belly. I said I didn't think it necessary, but I'm trying to avoid being too dogmatic and saying stuff is "right or wrong". That's one reason I'm encouraging her to come here, lots of opinions.
@ Pappy, that's pretty much what I said to her :)
Del
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Seems to be bending a little too much right out of the fades to my liking
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If its a pyramid, I like it. If its a flatbow, Id say the fades are bending just a fuzz too much, very little.
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Looks great for a first effort. +1 to what PD says.
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Looking good for a pyramid, just a few minor changes as suggested by Pappy & co.
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I think she's signed up, just waiting for mods to
sign up a new victim ;) ok her :laugh:
Del
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Hi everybody,
I have a pic of the reworked bow. It started out as a 33 pound bow and it has dropped to 29 pounds. I guess some of that weight disappeared because I shot it. It has developed some set during shooting in sessions.
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/NanceCarpenter/20160307_111914_resized_zpsb0ldr7pj.jpg)
I reduced the weight on the left/top limb and didn't touch the right limb. I left the knots thick because they are on the edge of the limbs and I guess it's better to be safe than sorry. I have reduced them though and I hope the bow won't fail on me now.
Nancy
PS will I have to answer all those verification questions every time I want to post?
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Nope , only a few times and that will go away, it is there to dissuaded spammers. Bow turned out nice, very good work.
Pappy
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Welcome to PA, Nancy!
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Thanks guys
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If its a pyramid, I like it. If its a flatbow, Id say the fades are bending just a fuzz too much, very little.
+2
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Welcome. This is the place for bow builders. I am the worst at it and somehow they put up with me. You are doing great and will benefit greatly by being here.
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Welkom Nance,
looking very good right now!
You've taken the blue pill, there's no turning back now from the bowyer's addiction.
Joachim, a southern neighbour
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Nice work for your 1st bow!
Welcome to PA. 8)
Cheers
Thunder
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Good work, Nance. It will stand up just fine for your first bow! Better than many of us did on our first FIVE bows!
But now that you have been bitten by the bug, you might as well build on your initial success and confidences! Welcome to P.A. and we look forward to seeing more of you around here!
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Incredible first bow. I would love to see the unstrung front and side profiles. How long is it?
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Very Nice! :)
I'm not familiar with the properties of Hazel as a bow wood but it seems to be working well.
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If I were to shorten both limbs a tad, would the bow regain some of it's lost draw weight?
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Yes , but what is the length now and what is your draw length. :)
Pappy
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It's slightly less than 65". My draw length is 27". I was thinking a cm off each side. To get it back up to 30 pounds. It's 28,7 now at 28".
Hazel as bow wood is relatively strong in tension but not so much in compression. A bow should be wide, kept crowned and have a flat belly. It's fast and comes in handy bow shaped staves. Finding a good stave can be difficult because the wood often grows twisted. The colour is a beautiful white.
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Nance,
you lost a pound or two because the wood was overstrained in compression (it took a bit of set). Piking the tips and keeping the 27" draw will strain the wood even more, and it will take even more set and you'll be worse off than before. By the way, to gain 2# in your case you should remove 2 cm at each side (1.5").
What are the width and thickness dimensions of the limbs?
IMHO, the bow should define the draw length, not the archer. Depending on the bow (only considering my own bows), I draw 23" to 32". Shoot the draw length that suits the bow best. If you shorten the tips in a maximally strained bow, you should shorten the draw length accordingly to avoid extra set.
The only way I see you can regain some draw weight is to heat-treat the belly. This can do wonders. Hazel reacts very well to dry heat.
I'd try that, and also start making a second bow and collect some more staves for additional bows.
cheers
Joachim
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Thanks. I will keep it as it is then. I've learned a lot from this build so the next one will be better.... probably ;)
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Incredible first bow. I would love to see the unstrung front and side profiles. How long is it?
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/NanceCarpenter/Mobile%20Uploads/20160308_143318-1_resized_zpshvjrdh3j.jpg)
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/NanceCarpenter/Mobile%20Uploads/20160308_143334-1_resized_zpsydcqclj5.jpg)
Can I reverse some of this set? Or just leave it like this? Steam, heat treatment? The difference between the handle and the tips is 2,5 inches. When I started the rough bow actually had a reflex of an inch.
I'm already over the moon by the fact that it went from a big tree branch to something that shoots smaller tree branches.
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Hi Nance, and welcome...
there are some tricks to regaining some poundage, although sometimes the results are marginal or regressive If you have plans for another bow, sometimes getting some more experience with the next project is worth considering, as the first one can be special to some.
willie
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You can remove the set and regain the poundage at the same time by clamping/tying the bow straight and heat treating the belly (loads on my blog about the process).
Personally I'd stick with what you have for fear of ruining it, and make another. It's a wise man (or woman ;) ) who knows when to quit.
Del
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Yeah, you're probably right Del.
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Nance,
what might have contributed to the set is that the weather in the Netherlands has been extremely wet lately (as in Belgium). With a moisture content of 80% and an indoor temperature of 20°C, the equilibrium moisture content of the wood will be 16%. All woods take huge set at these moistures.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html
Heat-treating actually avoids this problem.
I store my bows in a heated place in winter (the central heating chamber at 25°C) and monitor ambient moisture content continuously. If it's too high, don't waste your bow (wood) by shooting or tillering it.
Cat litter material is a good absorbant of moisture, so if you have an airtight box in which to store your bows, add a bean bag of cat litter to it, but make sure to monitor moisture in the box. You don't want to have wood at less than 6% MC.
Joachim
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I've never worked Hazel but if relatively strong tension/compression ratio is as described you may want to consider trying to "trap" the back...creating a trapezoidal cross section to maximize results, next time. Moisture content and heat treating are very important. You've done well, I'd enjoy your first success and hang on to that bow to look back on in time!
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Personally I'd stick with what you have for fear of ruining it, and make another. It's a wise man (or woman ;) ) who knows when to quit.
Del
Del made a comment once that resonated with me and has become a precept I try to live by: "Mended beyond repair". This bow will serve you well while the next one is emerging from the stave where it is currently hidden. Like the cowboys out west here say, rub some dirt on it and walk it off!
Hazel as bow wood is relatively strong in tension but not so much in compression. A bow should be wide, kept crowned and have a flat belly. It's fast and comes in handy bow shaped staves. Finding a good stave can be difficult because the wood often grows twisted. The colour is a beautiful white.
That is a perfect description of an amazing little hazel bow that I own. I would gladly post pics and reap heaps of praise and adulation for this sweet shooter....but too many people know that it was a gift to me from Del the Cat. His pawprints are all over it!
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I would definitely heat treat the belly, as suggested by many here. If it gets to be too strong after that, I would also slightly trap the back as well. All in moderation.
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I agree with leaving it be, despite the possibility of upping the weight via heat treating, recurves, etc. I've messed up a couple of bows when I first started because I just couldn't leave well enough alone.
Much better first attempt than mine, I must admit. You'll learn quickly and improve with all the info on these forums. Good luck.
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If she does not need to apply finishes to the bow immediately, she can always come back to it later with more experience.
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That's a good point. It can be very satisfying to return to an old bow, rework it and improve it.
I reworked my first ever Yew ELB after about 40 years of learning and got it to shoot further than ever before :)
Del
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Did turn out great. It is bending a bit much, even for a pyramid, in the inner limbs just off the fades, but not too badly. Of course, we should also have a front profile pic to really determine what full draw should look like. Still, that's a heck of a first effort, and we're glad you are on board, Nance!
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An update:
I cut two new hazel branches today. They are leaking fluids so I'm going to keep them outside for a few days until most of the weeping is over. I got a nice straight 4 cm thick branch to make a elb type bow from with a high crown and a flat belly. I'm not sure if I should make it bend through the handle or not. The bow limbs will taper evenly on the belly and the sides to make the longbow shape.
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u413/NanceCarpenter/Mobile%20Uploads/rsz_20160401_112708_zps6yq4mwfc.jpg)
I cut a bigger one for my husband to try and a sapling for making a children's bow for my four year old daughter.
The first bow still shoots and it's a real beauty with the white wood.
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Nice, for a longbow, err on the side of wide with a gently rounded belly rather than a high arched belly. have plenty of length too. I'd say let the entire bow work (full compass) to minimise the risk of the belly chrysalling.
Good luck and have fun.
Del
I meant to cut some Hazel but I've left it a bit late now.... there's always next winter.
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It's a bit late for cutting wood I agree. There's a lot of spring growth in it and a lot of water. I took one branch so I don't think the plant will be hurt by it.
I meant a round back with a flat belly. Like a flatbow but with more elb like dimensions. Reversed D shape. I want to make it 30-40 pounds, maybe a bit more. That depends on both the wood and the muscles in my arms haha.
What bow length should I aim for? I'm 5'9" and have a draw length of 27".
I want to use those beautiful horn nocks so those will add to the overall length too.
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70"-72" should reasonable, I wouldn't go shorter than 70".
I always go 2" over to give me room to take an inch or so off if necessary.
Del
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Actually, Nance, cutting during the growing season is a good idea because the bark pops off easily then.
Tiller looks good.
I'd leave it.
Congratulations on your first.
Jawge
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Should I debark it now? I heard that hazel does not tend to split when drying indoors.
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Debark and seal immediately with yellow wood glue.
You might even taper it immediately (leave the width to avoid warping) and then seal it. It will dry in a few weeks time. Monitor weight till it stops losing weight.
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My fear with the wood glue is that it won't come off later. What is your experience with it?
Ps do you mean sealing the ends or the complete stave along the length?
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Looks great to me. Now go out and kill something with it and have a good meal. :o)
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Welcome to PA Nance. Your first bow looks real good. 8) You might be able to increase the weight a little by reflexing the tips a bit and maybe tempering the belly.
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Nice 1st bow Nancy my 1st didn't survive tiler 2nd wasn't tilerd that good it does seam to bend a bit much off the handle but really nice 1st bow.
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Just seal the ends.
Jawge
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Well now I want to make a Hazel bow! I think I'd feel conflicted about removing branches from a Hazel, since I love their nuts.
That bow looks great, and you're right about the color, it looks almost creamy.
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Well now I want to make a Hazel bow! I think I'd feel conflicted about removing branches from a Hazel, since I love their nuts.
That bow looks great, and you're right about the color, it looks almost creamy.
Don't worry about the shrubs. Some have more than 30 branches so losing one isn't going to influence nut capacity haha. After all I make up for that by being nuts.
From a single shrub you can take 2-3 good staves if you are lucky. Some of those will still be to small. Mark them and leave them a few years. The rest is either to bent or too twisted to be of any use. You can train some of the smaller saplings. Tie them to a straight pole and keep retying them until they are big enough to use. Like bonsai but bigger.
These were found in the middle of the ticket so they grew straight up towards the light. Not twisted like those at the edge of it.
Thanks for your compliments guys!
So removing the bark and then sealing the ends would do to dry it properly? The end sealing is to keep the branch from splitting right? Any work done along the length, like removing belly wood, can safely be done before drying?
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Nice, branch bows! Looking forward to seeing your next ones
Well now I want to make a Hazel bow! I think I'd feel conflicted about removing branches from a Hazel, since I love their nuts.
Better than cutting down an entire tree? :p
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If you debark it, I would seal the entire stave, not just the ends. It will dry a bit slower, but without checks and cracks.
If you use water soluble wood glue you can wipe it off later with a wet rag.
Leaving the bark on and then forgetting the stave (you'll soon be collecting dozens) is a recipe for bug damage. Them borers love hazel and lay their eggs on the bark, but not on wood glue
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Great 1st Bow Nance - Welcome to the site ! Bob