Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Spotted Dog on March 01, 2016, 10:19:55 am
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Since I wasn't there 300 years ago. Do you all truly think Native Americans took the
sap wood off of their bows ?
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I don't know. I wasn't there either. :) Jawge
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I dont know , I only know what I read there where like 500 plus tribes when Colubus hit the shores but I have read the Osage chased a ring no sap wood also Ishi chased rings some what & backed his bows no sap wood , some times I think people under estamate the techcnical & skill leval of American Indians , I think if sap wood worked better then no sap wood they would have used it more just my thoughts.
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It's been a while since I read his book, but I believe Al Herrin said the Cherokee chased a ring on black locust bows, or at least he said something like "all heartwood".
I often wonder if there were different techniques for working wood with stone tools we don't think about today. For instance out here in Utah and Nevada there was an entire industry around taking short staves from suitable juniper trees, where some sites were visited over and over to remove staves from the same location at the tree healed, maybe 50 years later sometimes. The branches were chiseled at each end of the stave, and the sides scored with stone chisels and choppers. Then left alone for weeks or months to dry, still attached to the tree. As they dried, they would often crack loose, and pull away from the tree, and when the NA'S returned they would pry them out "pop" with a wooden lever. That would never occur to me.
So, fire shaping? Green wood shaping? Lots of splitting, but little chopping? I dunno...
I once had the idea to cut an elm sapling, but leave the leaves and top intact for a few days to speed drying time. Worked wonders. In two days the leaves were crumbly, and log was way lighter than green wood. I split the stave out restrained it, DIDN'T SEAL IT, except at the tips, and it dried without any checking, unlike almost any other stave ever has. It still had a lot of drying to do to be ready to work, but to me that means it lost a lot of internal moisture up front.
Lastly, inspired by the juniper technique above, I cut halfway through a standing ash sapling at the top and bottom of the stave I wanted, and cut away a strip of bark at the sides. My idea was that dry wood is stiffer than green wood. So I came back several days later (late summer btw) trimmed a few branches, bent the top of the tree over AWAY from the stave, and the stave split itself off as the rest of the tree flexed.
Probably lots we don't do anymore because we have steel tools.
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I didn't remove the sapwood on this one. It's a good shooting bow however had there been enough heartwood I probably would have chased a ring. Then again had I been building with stone I may not have!
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56129.0.html
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We're really only talking about Osage and black locust here. Lots of bows were made of hickory and sinew-backed cedar, and others.
I still think a good trick for stone-worked Osage bows would be to keep a supply of staves or logs buried in the humus in damp places such as a forest floor where the sapwood would rot away.
One thing I think was true: It would be only in desperate straits that a paleo bowyer would work a "character" stave. That activity is the result of leisure time and a bounty of tools.
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I once had the idea to cut an elm sapling, but leave the leaves and top intact for a few days to speed drying time. Worked wonders. In two days the leaves were crumbly, and log was way lighter than green wood. I split the stave out restrained it, DIDN'T SEAL IT, except at the tips, and it dried without any checking, unlike almost any other stave ever has. It still had a lot of drying to do to be ready to work, but to me that means it lost a lot of internal moisture up front.
I read somewhere that they do this with bamboo. If i remember I'm going to try it with Ocean Spray this summer.
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Cool, I want to see the results. Anything to help speed drying without checking., and ocean spray is one of those difficult woods to dry, right?
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Right
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yes sometimes,, the museum bows show that,, I am sure if it was a sapling the sapwood was left on the have enough wood for a bow,,
probably just depended on the level of skill and knowledge,,, on a sinew bow it would not be an issue,,
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I was thinking along the line of sapling or just smaller trees. Lots of good thoughts here.
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from a book i have that has pictures and items were collected in the 1800's, yes they did leave sapwood on the back on SOME of the bows.listed in bows arrows and quivers of the American frontier.on one particular bow they left the bark on it as well.
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Ishi did not chase a ring in his backed juniper and yew bows. Conifer wood does not require it. Specially when backed. If you don't chase a ring in osage and locust it will break. Probably a easy lesson learned. Half the old osage bows I have seen have a sapwood back. Chased ring of corse.
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bull! i have a all osage sapwood bow.nothing but sapwood it aint broke and pulls 50 pounds. come on man quit reciting age old bull.try it then talk about it!ive made a number of locust {black and yellow} with sapwood in tact. never had a problem. heck one last 15 years of shooting almost every day. i then sinewed the back and gave it away to someone on here. last i knew it still shoots.ive made osage bows in the past with a few layers of sapwood { so have others on here} and guess what, yea they shot fine.you make nice bows, ive seen some. but you recite stuff you must of never tried.
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Chuck isn't referring to all sapwood bows here, or if it's possible. (We all know it is)
He's answering the posters question did the originals have sapwood backs or were they all heartwood.
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in Jim Hamms book encyclopedia of native american bows arrows and quivers vol 2 are museum specimens of Kiowa bow with sapwood and bark in tact osage bow, many other osage bows with sapwood. its not only possible, it was done! some were taking down to the heartwood, some were not. thats fact.
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from what I read,, everyone agrees bout that
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Sap wood is fine and I am sure it was left on a lot of bows, especially saplings, but I would still chase a ring if it was me and I bet they did also. Who knows :-\ As far as bark I have tried that a few times and it never worked at least not long. It dries much quicker and the either cracked or popped off. ;)
Pappy
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I tried bark one time, it cracked and made the bow fail,, so I did not try that anymore,,once bit ,, twice shy,,,
as far as chasing a ring,, I am sure there were variations on that as well,, I feel like a bow could be drawn further with one ring on the back,, I have a bow here that a friend made with very very thin rings,, he left the sapwood on the back and it is very violated,, never broke,, overstrained the bow so hard that it fretted the belly,,Osage,,, but the back held,, sorry bout the ramble but,,,I plan to sinew back it,, scrape out all the frets and see what it does,,,leaving the sap wood back as it is,,
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In my own personal experience I've never had any of my sap wood osage bows give way :-\. On the other hand, I've chased rings on them as well, but mainly because the sap wood was jeopardized. Just my own two cents.
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Here is a "pole" bow I made a few years ago. It was from a 2" diameter pole, sawn in half and 2 bows were made. I usually rawhide back these pole bows just for safety sake...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/almostdone.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/almostdone.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/2012TGBowTrade2inchosagepole004-1.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/2012TGBowTrade2inchosagepole004-1.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebowdonec2012004.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/TGtradebowdonec2012004.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebowdone2012001.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/TGtradebowdone2012001.jpg.html)
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riverrat, if your talking to me, I'm not sure what your talking about. Read my post again. I've made a few sap backed osage and 2 sap backed black locust. I still chase a ring. Are you saying you don't?
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I always chase a ring too. Sapwood if it's a sapling, and heratwood if it's a stave from a log.
I find very interesting the methods decribed by Sprinbuck. I will try them!
:)
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Pat, I have an osage pole like yours. I am going to work it down with a scraper to get bark off. Not enough heart there to remove sapwood.
Even then if I violate a ring in it I will go down another and back it.
Chuck that is what I believe you meant.
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I had to stop. Making applesauce and forgot it :o
Chuck you have on your site an osage bow with sapwood. That is one thing that got me thinking.
Good Talk.
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If the pole you have is whole, saw it down the middle, lengthwise and bind it back together with spacers between to allow air flow. If it is new, it will help them dry faster, keep the halves from going into reflex and keep them from twisting. You can add reflex easy enough later if wanted.
This will give you 2 staves so study the pole well to be sure you get the staves with the best possible back.
I made the handle riser with thick shoe leather. Most of my bows bend slightly in the handle at full draw.
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I split this thing years ago . It is straight and begging to be worked.
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I know through CROOKETARROW the IROQOU'S did they also tied down the sapling in trees to add refex. Same as I do staves today. But I use saw horses and a rachet strap no tree's.
Crooketarrow use to say.
I've gave him a few osage staves. He was use to hickory,elm any white wood sapings. He had 100's seasoning in his shop. He loved osage and said it was talked about alot in his granddadys day.
He used the same tools as he would with any bow sappleing. DRAW KNIFE. BIG BUCHER KNIFE SCRAPER, SAND PAPER. He worked them all down just like a stave bow.
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Thanks for the pictures Pat. I've been studying them a bit.
Last summer a friend of mine had a job clearing out and replanting a yard in a nice neighborhood in Salt Lake City. He called me and said they were cutting down trees that people told him were rare and valuable. He did not know the name. I showed up and it turned out to be osage. I found out they were planted 90+ years ago for cattle block. I took all the trunks I thought I might be able to use. Got a dozen or so 48" and under staves but the long ones were all so close grain they looked like high altitude valuable yew. Not just that but the grain was also rippled(curly). I did however also get about 10 pole branches that will make great bows like the one you posted. I already split a larger pole and removed the sap sides and it just has a sap back. After looking at your bow I'm inspired to split the smaller ones now.
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I chased a ring in the sap wood. Colors were all together different. Outer white as snow and one down creamy
yellow. You could tell by the sound too. Crunchy to smooth sound and feel. 8)
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Thanks for the pictures Pat. I've been studying them a bit.
Last summer a friend of mine had a job clearing out and replanting a yard in a nice neighborhood in Salt Lake City. He called me and said they were cutting down trees that people told him were rare and valuable. He did not know the name. I showed up and it turned out to be osage. I found out they were planted 90+ years ago for cattle block. I took all the trunks I thought I might be able to use. Got a dozen or so 48" and under staves but the long ones were all so close grain they looked like high altitude valuable yew. Not just that but the grain was also rippled(curly). I did however also get about 10 pole branches that will make great bows like the one you posted. I already split a larger pole and removed the sap sides and it just has a sap back. After looking at your bow I'm inspired to split the smaller ones now.
Oh, now I'm jealous. I live here near SLC, too, and I've only come across a handful of osage trees. I heard the pioneers brought some, and the black locust trees, to grow their own fenceposts, tool handles, and barn beams. I found some in North Ogden where they were developing, but couldn't get permission to cut them. Got a run around over who to ask. Good trees, big old, dark wood, hard, big rings (I could see some cuts and stumps) but growing in the open, so..... billets, not staves. Anyway they took most of them out before I could talk the guy into letting me look closer. I should have sneaked on, but my big chainsaw is awfully loud at night. :-) I managed to grab a few chunks that the workers had cut, but they are only big enough for some accents, arrow footings, or knife handles maybe.