Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on February 18, 2016, 05:31:12 pm
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I used to have fun on another site doing certain contest. Last one I did was who could make the longest draw per bow length. The reward was a Damascus knife. I think I would like to host another one of these.
I cant decide on a category but have a few in mind. Yall pick. One with most votes gets to be the one done. Prize is a hand made by a friend of mine damascus knife.
Should we do a one tool contest, start to finish with only one tool not including cutting the tree only. Nicest best crafted bow as voted on here by participants wins.
A design contest, shortes bow pulled the furthest at say, 40 pounds as a self bow? Length draw length ratio is compared for hard results. Closest to a 1:1 ratio wins materials dont mater so long as its one piece of wood.
Perhaps maybe a bow made from the most unlikely piece of wood, with again parameters like 40@28, voted on by participants once again. Wood being a bug hole stave or pine board or a stave nobody would consider maybe a piece of red oak cut moulding.... Something ridiculous.
Yall vote and ask questions anx we can do this. Maybe save the others for next time if there is enough interest. The point being to think outside the box and push limits. Oh, and have fun :)
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Sleek, the third, unlikely piece of wood contest appeals to me most.
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I like the idea of te most unlikely piece of wood too. I think it would be fun.
Kyle
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I would also vote for the most unlikely piece of wood. I always love seeing those crazy character bows.
Tattoo Dave
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Ryoon would be a favorite to win the most unlikely piece of wood contest. 2 of his bows come to mind, the poplar bow and that crazy mess of a bow he made a few years back that had the two different length limbs.
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I've been pulling models about three inches past their 2-1 length-draw ratio on the regular so that's the one I'd feel most compelled to try. In that category do we count limb length or is a static grip just a good way to lose to the bendy bows?
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I'm up for a wild stave or even a "that's not good bow wood" stave build! YYou know I got both of those sleek!
Patrick
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I like idea 3. I've been wondering about sumac and arbor vitae lately.
If I may present another potential option. Those "frankenbows" I've seen posted on occasion where two billets of different species come together in an unholy union always looked like an interesting build to me.
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i like the character bow contest idea :) and the draw length vs bow length sounds fun too >:D
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I've been pulling models about three inches past their 2-1 length-draw ratio on the regular so that's the one I'd feel most compelled to try. In that category do we count limb length or is a static grip just a good way to lose to the bendy bows?
Its total length from tip to tip. Perhaps a two catagory on that one would be best, bendy and stiff handle category?
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Ryoon would be a favorite to win the most unlikely piece of wood contest. 2 of his bows come to mind, the poplar bow and that crazy mess of a bow he made a few years back that had the two different length limbs.
Funny you mention him. He won the last one i did. He has this hickory bow he pulled back a ridiculous distance.
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I like idea 3. I've been wondering about sumac and arbor vitae lately.
Franken bows are neat for certain and i have made a few. But I dont know about how a contest would be judged on merit?
If I may present another potential option. Those "frankenbows" I've seen posted on occasion where two billets of different species come together in an unholy union always looked like an interesting build to me.
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Unless there's a measuring stick like the extreme bend example, we could just hold an open voting thread by non-participants after the build deadline. I figured that's how #3 would have to be judged.
PS Sleek, I should have some pics of that abnormally colored hazel for you tomorrow. I split 2 of um so far with the most promising yet to come. The first two had a real nice rusty color in the middle. Can't wait to see the last, but it got too late to split staves in the house before I could get to it. That original stave you liked may be up for grabs anyway. I went with the rock elm for my trade bow.
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Hmmm... What is the length of a bow? :o
I think you need to measure along the belly from nock to nock.
Otherwise you could make a bow 3' long with 12" levers sticking out at 90 degrees so that, unbraced it's still 3' overall, but the levers come round as it's drawn and give a loooooooong draw.
You can tell I've been thinking about this ;D
Del
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I'm definitely with you on the levers, I recently made a 50" molle with ten inch levers for a friend who pulls 35#@26" and if you don't count levers that's an engineering marvel- but when I'm laying out the bow I measure the length of limb I need and add the length of whatever stiff grip I'll make which leaves bendy grips shorter than stiff grips by nature.
Considering that Mollie I've also been building a 52" recurve for 30#@26", a new low weight bow for myself, but while it has the two inches in overall length over the Mollie it also has a seven inch stiff grip so it has a more extreme working limb to draw ratio than the molle but a lesser overall length to draw.
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Measuring from the belly seems logical to me.
For the votes, id really like only those who participate to vote and you cant vote for your own bow. I believe that way the votes are more in-depth in knowledge if cast by someone who tried it rather than someone who hasnt.
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Dakota, just let me know when you got em all opened up. Im in no rush at all.
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This has inspired me to have a go with some Yew sapwood offcuts which I've just generated while trimming last years Yew logs. Not enough wood for 40# but I'm hoping for an impressive little 30 pounder from a 4' bow. :)
Here's the first try on the tiller (yes it's a bit ugly at the moment!)
Since then I've flipped the tips and eased off the grip and left limb... I reckon Yew sapwood will take a huuuuuuge bend >:D
Del
(PS right tip is twisted so it looks too thick... it can only get better ::) )
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Sleek
hickory will win most every time on a bend ratio
I have a 48 inch bow with a 4 inch stiff handle that has been pulled to 26 Inches well over a hundred shots
also wondering about measuring draw weight it should be done at the point the bow reaches 90 degrees of string angle cause after 90 the weight is just not true
just some food for thought
have fun whatever you folks decide
it is just not a good time for mr to be building bows but will try to watch and cheer y'all on!
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With the intent of keeping it simple im just going to stick with going off what the scale reads stack or not. No doubt your point is good and true but regulating the string angle gets too involved.
I think that this coming friday everyone who is interested will have made their mind up on what they would like to do. I will count up which contest favors the most interest, edit this thread title and give a time limit for completion. How long will yall want?
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I'm proud of my 41" bow that I pull to 27". Vine maple, sinew, and blue silk. I don't know what's possible, but I love it.
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That sounds like a beast of a bow Chad, it's been a while since I've had vine maple but I know that stuff brands like a dream!
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Guys, if you are interested, and haven't spoken up do so soon. I dont want to leave the thread dead for too long. So mention the contest you want to enter. The one the most folks want will be done first. The others will be done at a later time. The pize is a hand forged damascus knife. Shipping is on me.
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I'd like to see another "twig-bow" contest, a bow made in an unconventional manner, and with the most amount of forethought, and the least amount of woodworking. Like Baker's branch bow, with the tied splice for a handle in the TBB.
I also remember the Home Depot bow contests, where folks made the best bow they could from ONLY what was available at a big-box hardware store.
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Idea 3 got the most votes.
If you want to participate in this one join in by..... contest end i reckon? Whenever that is. Yall decide.
Participants vote on who won.
Feel free to post your build alongs on this thread. Make a bow of the most crazy wood or wood idea you can think of. 40@28 being the goal to keep it a viable weapon. Use twogs, moulding, unconventional wood, osage that is a barber pole that actually twist in a circle, pine, recycled wood from a building full of nails with the nails still it it, ideas abound! Have fun!
Prize is a hand made damascus knife you are sure to love.
How long do you guys want to build? I realise green wood isnt the best but that could certainly add to the challenge.
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Sounds like fun, Sleek. How about June 1?
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This is sure to be an awesome thread!! I'll attempt to join in the fun. Just gotta find a piece of wood to try out.
Tattoo Dave
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I think I'll give it a try.
I have two horrible pieces of wood I've thought about seeing if a bow could be brought out of.
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I'm in sleek. Was June 1st confirmed as the hard deadline?
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can we use one we already built?
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June 1 is ok with me if there are no objections.
I dont know about pre made bows.... I guess they are ok?
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Up to you sleek, but that takes some of the fun out the build-along part. It becomes just an odd bow contest instead of a bow making contest.
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Good point Bster.id really rather it be build alongs as planB stated.
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Are we limited to a single entry?
And, are we talking a non-typical bow wood species or an ugly/unusual stave of any species?
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Again in the interest of fun, seems like the more unusual wood bows a person can come up with, the merrier. Only one is going to win -- if any. does.
But....it will be fun either way.
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Someone will certainly win. And of course, the more bows the better!
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Is this unbacked selfbows or are there no restrictions.
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Are cable backs allowed? Might try this long fir board that's been laying around here for a while...
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Self bows are prefered but i dont want to stiffle creativity. Have fun.
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build alongs fine with me. lol
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I've got MI started already! I'm making one out of bradford pear!
Patrick
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Is there a prize for the one that breaks into the most pieces? :D
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Kindling?
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That could be fun. Some way to join pieces together, even backing them with joints in the bending sections... Or two picces spliced or joined together at the handle with levers spliced in... Lots of fun could be had with kindling.
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This may be of use. It's a list of the worst bow woods from a mathematical standpoint and their "bow score" as determined by comparing elasticity to breaking point. Thanks to the wood database for providing the info and Eric Meier for writing the article.
Grand Fir 5.71
Balsa 5.73
Basswood 5.96
Austrian Pine 5.96
Pacific Silver Fir 6.09
Nepalese Alder 6.17
Balsam Poplar 6.18
Eastern Cottonwood 6.20
Sitka Spruce 6.34
Balsam Fir 6.35
Bigtooth Aspen 6.36
Subalpine Fir 6.36
Yellow Poplar 6.39
Yellow Buckeye 6.41
Sumatran Pine 6.49
Norway Spruce 6.49
Tatajuba 6.52
White Fir 6.53
Jelutong 6.56
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Do you have to sign up this or just show what you got by June 1st?
Thunder
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Join in whenever but build alongs are prefered and will help in judging who won with the bow that was least likely. Build along helps us see what you had to deal with and how you overcame the problems faced.
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Sleek
this seems like a good contest for someone who is only has weird woods to work with. I often wish I could just go for a walk and find a osage or a yew tree, but thats not possible where I am, so different it has got to be.........
btw. can any body id this species?
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Willie, I would love to see you make a bow of that! Whatever it is....
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Would there be an objection if the weight and draw limit were done away with to allow for more creativity? Yall all just vote on the bows you like the most based on who pulled the most out of the most unlikely.
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it seems kinda brittle for a bow limb, so no need to change the rules for that, just wondering if anyone knows what it is? might use it for parts and pieces though
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I always liked the idea of up-cycling used wood, like turning old chair parts into a bow and documenting it while it's being built. But that wouldn't be a one-piece bow.
Another one was fishing out narrowish logs from a fire wood stack and splicing bits and pieces together (40 cm max per piece) into a single bow.
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Well go for it. It doesnt need to be a one piece. It can be a 4 piece if you can figure it out. Two piece take down with slide on tips to vary between recurve or straight levers or no tips to allow the bow to change styles and weight. Like I said.... Have fun :)
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Sleek, just one vote here for keeping the draw length and weight limits -- that's what makes it a challenge (and a bow).
I'm waiting to find the wood I want to build from -- spring is just weeks away here, and haven't gone out to find something suitable yet. But I definitely will be building when I do, and I expect more people will join in as the weather warms up. It's going to be a very cool thread when things start hopping! :)
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Well, ok i guess the rules stay as they are then. :)
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I'm ok with dropping the draw weight restriction, but it still has to shoot like a bow. Can't just LOOK like a bow and not be shootable. Has to have SOME level of cast.
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willie,
Is the branch that dark throughout or just on the cut end? I've seen branch patterns like that in beech before, but I no of zero North American woods that are that dark in color. It could be spalted or mineralized resulting in that color. Was it a dead fall or standing dead by chance? It would also narrow things down to know where you are located?
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it was that dark when I cut it, and has not changed. the diameter of the cut end is about 3/4 inch. I wish the stick was bigger, as I might try to make a bow from it, about 3 foot long in the photo.
found on a beach in alaska, Do not know where to find more .....
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Looks like the rings are delaminating
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If found on an Alaska beach, that could have floated in from just about anywhere on the globe. I did think of a US wood or two that dark, Persimmon and a few desert Acacia. Given where you found it however it could be anything from anywhere.
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I've been cutting brush pruning and cutting off some wild apple trees with the idea of grafting some good apples on them. Anyway had a big brush pile of mixed beech, maple, and apple saplings. Meanwhile I'm waiting for some board and stave stock to dry in the house, and that's truly as exciting as watching paint dry!
At lunch I read over the TBB chapter about simple branch bows and got a terrible itch to just go back and chop a piece of that brush, green as it is, into a bow if I could. The day was a perfect early spring day sunny, blue skies with a bit of wind.
So I picked out a pretty straight one about 2" diameter and just hacked at it with the hatchet until it was bow shaped, and had a taper down both limbs -- floor tillering it -- well, no, stump tillering it -- the stump having been the chopping block, too. It was pretty limber being green so I tried not to go too far with the hatchet tillering. Then I scraped off the outer bark with the hatchet -- it came off easily, and then scraped the remaining green stuff off with my pocket knife, until the bow was pure white and smooth.
I found a piece of concrete block, or "urbanite", and used that to rough sand the belly. The three tools used to shape the bow are shown on the stump below along with a sister sapling of the same size. I don't know what kind of sapling this was -- bark was smooth and light gray, so it could have been any one of the three types of saplings I cut. Branches had been removed, so I couldn't check those. But as a guess, it was a maple.
I'm posting it here to maybe break the contest ice. I doubt it will meet the poundage and length requirements since it's only 60" long and less than 2" wide -- and probably over-tillered already, but you know what?
It was FUN to be out there making a bow in the sun on a spring day, end even if it ends up a ten pounder, it was worth the hour or so it took -- playing with a piece of wood, a rock and a hatchet! It was like being a kid again.
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Man alive. Nice lokkin stick and minimum tool list. Love the hell out of that. Thanks bud. Lookin for the full draw soon. You gonna let it dry first or pull it wet? I hope it makes weight for you and turns out a good shooter for you.
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Sleek, I'm going to let it dry -- probably will check all over. I'll hit it with linseed oil tonight and hope for the best. It's really a noodle now.
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Pacific Madrone
This is my project. Cut 2-3 years ago. Checked bad but mostly on the belly side. 56" If I can get it to hold together It should be 50# but will only try for 25" since that's what I shoot but we'll see. I've shaved it down to about 1" thick and glued some cracks so far. Hard stuff.
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Emmet that's a tough piece of wood! But I see you turned out some really nice bows -- one from another tough customer. Looking forward to seeing what you can do with this one!
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Thinking about it more, now, seems like a person ought to be able to enter a bow that fits his/her draw length if it's less than 28". I can draw 28" so I'll stick with that, but if somebody like Emett draws less, whatever they draw should be fine for their entry.
And also making the 40 lb just a minimum -- if it isn't already, so 50 lbs is good. At least that's my vote. Up to others, and Sleek of course.
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100 percent behind you on the draw length thing. Make it to your draw length. Honor system applies.
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But I draw like 12 to 13 inches depending on whither or not it's morning or night. >:D >:D >:D
Plan B, that's awesome! I will do that one day. Looks like a lot of fun.
Patrick
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and got a terrible itch to just go back and chop a piece of that brush, green as it is, into a bow
+1
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I mistakenly wrote the original sapling above was 2" wide. Actually, checking the bow today it's 1-1/4 wide, so not much chance it will make weight. And it's still pretty green. Also a maple sapling bow doesn't seem too oddball. So with that in mind I went looking for something odder, wider, and longer. A few minutes into the woods from the back yard and i found a young cottonwood tree about 4" wide. I cut it down and sliced off a piece a little over my head in length, and brought it to my chopping stump and started hacking out another bow. Not much time on it before dinner, but it cuts about with the hatchet about as hard as a chunk of cheese! Pics tomorrow.....
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Here's the cottonwood sapling about 3" dia. -- photo 1
Making lots of chips -- pretty easy with this wood when green. All hatchet work. About 72" long -- photo 2
Photo-3 -- Keeping it wide -- about 2-3/4". I stopped here and got some linseed oil on it. Cottonwood lumber likes to twist and split, in my experience. Fingers crossed.....
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Making some progress plan b. That stuff sure gets lite when it drys.
I've been working on mine today. I de crowned it to get past the ugliest stuff. I think if it's flat & thin enough it might bend without breaking but has some ugliness still in it.
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Ugliness a plus Emmet! Glad I'm not building alone here....
Nobody else have access to weird wood, or oddball preferences out there..... or are we the only nutz?
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Well, I'm still planning on building mine out of Bradford pear. Most everyone I know says that it won't work. I've got it floor tillered but it's still pretty stiff. Sorry, no pictures of it yet.
Patrick
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interesting post about the cottonwood PlanB. We have lot's here. looking forward. Also I'm working on an all sapwood locust bow pretty damn narrow so if it survives it will be pretty strange
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That's great Patrick, looking forward to seeing your pear bow when you get a chance to photo it!
Sapling Bowyer, I dunno about this one, I looked it up and cottonwood is really dismal in tension. Not quite as bad in compression. I probably should have gone even wider and trapped the belly. Not an ideal sapling choice to say the least! Might have been better from a really big tree as a stave with as flat a back as possible.
I don't know how much more wood I'll be taking off -- it's still green at 33 oz. but that could drop quite a lot without touching the rasp. I'm kinda wondering if hollowing the belly ala Simson would improve my chances with a compression strong wood ---- or make the problem worse.....?
Looking forward to seeing your sapwood locust.....
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Anyone ever thought of plywood as a bow? Maybe a high quality oak ply with a clean veneer face?
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I thought of it, once...........
wait,-- I will check tomorrow on my tji cutoffs, those flanges and versa lam pieces are calling, and some might even be aspen instead of fir
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Problem is, the veneers inside the face run crossways, and the face veneers are usually as thin as possible and even then, sanded thinner on the sheet.
Not saying it can't be done, maybe some odd type of ply would work.
If you backed a piece of primo 1/4" ply with say an eighth inch of elm or BL as a pyramid, it might work if the belly held up.
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Nobody else have access to weird wood, or oddball preferences out there..... or are we the only nutz?
With over 2600 views I'd say It's being thought about. With all the trade bows being worked I'm sure not many have time for such nonsense right now.
There's likely some sleepers out there that are planning and will be posting something over the top in the last weeks.
I'd be surprised if there wasn't many more.
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My first successful bow and still rocking is a poplar board bow. I have another board sitting in the corner I can work on a little while when I get caught up on a couple things.
That poplar board bow is over 40# too ;)
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Probably true Emmet.
Great ajooter! It'd be interesting to compare poplar and cottonwood. And board and sapling.
Is yours the kind of poplar that sometimes has unusual heartwood colors like green and purple? -- I've seen that type at Home Depot.
I'm thinking that a board bow or de-crowned sapling, would be better for cottonwood than what I'm doing. If it doesn't work out, I might just try that for comparison sake.
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It's a plain Jane home depot....this one does have some nice deep greens in it.
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I've been wondering about just what kind of poplar that is, since poplar is usually described as a white (literally) wood. This stuff is often multicolored and seems pretty hard by comparison.
I finally figured it out tonight. What Home Depot probably sells as poplar is "yellow poplar" -- actually not a poplar, but tulip tree, Liriodendron tulipfera.
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/poplar/
At least I know what it is now.
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I decided to go with hollow limb tillering with the cottonwood bow, broke out a big gouge I have and went to work. I figure hollowing this sapling is the only way I can preserve the back width, and yet remove belly wood. It makes sense.
And since this is technically a compression strong wood (only by comparison with its low tensile strength) hollowing allows me to get the limb bending, and also even up the properties of the back and belly.
It is also a good way to pretty quickly reduce mass, and it seems to help drying a lot, increasing surface area, but reducing shrinkage stresses. Turners hollow out bowl blanks green for the same reason. I have to thank Simson for illustrating this tillering method. It's brilliant, and it seems very well suited to sapling or other high camber woods -- especially if they are compression strong.
I'm thinking it might be ideal for a cherry sapling for the same reasons.
Well can't count my chickens before they hatch, and it's not a bow yet. But I'm liking what I'm seeing while lightly floor tillering and hollowing to adjust it.
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Great thinking plan B. It will come in handy when working with weak compression strong woods
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Just curious fellas, would Basswood (Linden) qualify as weird enough to make one?
rich
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Rich, I think anything unusual qualifies. It's up to you.
It's funny, I have some linden (basswood) I cut and dried 5 years ago which I was using for making propellors for model planes and some other parts. I had just been thinking about it for a bow. I think if you did it, that would certainly be a tough wood to get a bow out of, but not impossible. It is pretty much at the bottom of the list of bad bow woods that I think Dakota put in the thread earlier. Worse than cottonwood even.....
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Sapling, well the operation was a success but the patient died! :laugh:
I'm really impressed with hollow tillering, but also had a lot to learn. It was going great for awhile, then some important points started cropping up and things went downhill until I got a big hinge and a buckled limb:
1.) the edges of a hollowed limb should be relatively sharp, not rounded.
2.) A very wide limb will create a LOT of camber -- there's a limit on how much camber the hollow tiller method can deal with. Beyond a certain point the limb edges will flap outwards and the back will buckle. I had a 2-3/4 limb width from a 3" dia sapling -- in other words nearly 1 to 1. It might have worked much better on a 4" sapling -- or if the wood was of a species and quality that the bow was say 2" max width on the 3" sapling.
3.) There was a definite obvious cause to the hinge -- a central knot with too much thickness -- I should have cut much more of that away.
4.) The failure was definitely a compression failure -- and a weird one because of the hollow. The bow buckled -- and then returned to it's original shape -- with only some severe frets showing on the underside where it had buckled. I mean it really let go hard on the tiller. Took it off and it looked like a bow again.
5.) Another error -- I thinned and narrowed the tips way too soon -- that was before I decided to hollow tiller, and I was thinking of it in the conventional way of flattening.
So a lot to learn -- but it really did work well for awhile, and I think if I do it again, I'd have a bow.
Much easier however to make a cottonwood bow from a board or relatively flat stave than a 3" sapling -- I think I came close, but not going to repeat it.
The bow after the break, first photo:
2wnd photo: damaged area. The edges should be sharper, and the knot dug out. I was just tillering lightly at 15 lbs and roughing out the hollow in the blank.
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just curious, ; why do you think the belly edge needs to be sharper? Or do you mean that the lower two edges each need to be as flat as possible, not rounded?
just a thought, but if the belly is not taking strain in the conventional manner, then is there some side bending, or controlled "flapping" outwards that is taking the load?
Normally I would say, RIP poor stave, but maybe the good limb need a autopsy
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sleek said plywood, and I found this tji scrap at the shop. If I made a bow of it my self, it would not be my idea, so I will cut and tiller it to group consensus , a freebie for the contest thread
its 71" long, 2-1/4" across the flange, 1-1/8 flange thickness. flange is doug fir and looks to be without voids, it also has a 1/2" x1/2" groove filled with aspen osb that can be dealt with any way youall think is best
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just curious, ; why do you think the belly edge needs to be sharper? Or do you mean that the lower two edges each need to be as flat as possible, not rounded?
The lower two edges probably need to be thinned in the photo. Earlier, what looks flat here had been rounded -- just as one would radius a normal bows corner to reduce edge stresses. But I found that in the hollow design, the rounded edge became a stress riser in compression -- I got some small chrysals there, which I removed by flattening with a block plane (what you see now in the photo).
Cottonwood was a good teacher because it is so weak and chrysalled easily -- pointing out errors in what I was doing. I think it also demonstrated that hollow tillering definitely compensates for a weak tension wood -- the back never broke, even with the limb bent double. Cottonwood would normally be expected to to break in tension.
The actual corner with the cambered back was sharp after planing back, although it looks flat in the pic. The wall thickness at the edge was increased because of the planing, and I would probably have gouged more of it out if tillering had gone further, but I would not have radiused it.
just a thought, but if the belly is not taking strain in the conventional manner, then is there some side bending, or controlled "flapping" outwards that is taking the load?
Yes definitely, In fact I believe that was why the back did not break despite the extreme bend, and why the bow "reassembled" itself afterward. Simson has said that in his HLB designs, the sidewalls flex outwards a small amount relieving stress.
I think a less extreme camber to start with probably would have produced a bow. A nearly half circle section is asking a lot of the sidewalls.
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I would use a gooseneck scraper and clean that hollow limb up next time. Give yourself a better surface to tiller from.
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I wasn't finished. :)
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sleek said plywood, and I found this tji scrap at the shop. If I made a bow of it my self, it would not be my idea, so I will cut and tiller it to group consensus , a freebie for the contest thread
its 71" long, 2-1/4" across the flange, 1-1/8 flange thickness. flange is doug fir and looks to be without voids, it also has a 1/2" x1/2" groove filled with aspen osb that can be dealt with any way youall think is best
This is sleeks contest. He made some suggestions to give people ideas to try so the tji is your baby.
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Nope, I,m not the daddy, just here to see if the kid can get a fair shake at life
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Plan b Was the cotton wood dry or still soaking wet? I would break a few more just to be sure.
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Emmet it was nearly dry but not completely. It dried amazingly fast, and I was actually just roughing it out at the point that I broke it. I am weighing the broken bow just to see how much moisture it will lose over time. I bet not a lot more.
To answer ajooter's question more fully -- a scraper would have been really difficult at the stage I was at -- ven an outside scraper was difficult on cottonwood. Imagine trying to scrape slightly damp balsa wood. I did plan to scrape after getting it to brace height and when it was fully dry -- I had it on the tree pulling lightly just so I could stand back and see it.
I probably should try one again, and in fact the butt section is still where I left it, I think it's long enough but might be more knotty. This was the next section up.
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Im loving this. Thank you so much for your guys participation.
Willie, a hard to build bkw contest was my idea, what you do is yours. Take that plywood bpw and make it yours. You get full credit. Now make it bend.
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sleek said plywood, and I found this tji scrap at the shop. If I made a bow of it my self, it would not be my idea, so I will cut and tiller it to group consensus , a freebie for the contest thread
its 71" long, 2-1/4" across the flange, 1-1/8 flange thickness. flange is doug fir and looks to be without voids, it also has a 1/2" x1/2" groove filled with aspen osb that can be dealt with any way youall think is best
Just pit some knocks in it and a piece if masons string and shoot an arrow out of it! Then it can be called a bow! >:D
Patrick
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If you can pull 40 lbs on that kind of rig at your draw, and shoot a bunch of arrows out of it, and people like it enough to vote it in, that's a winner. If not, you'll learn a lot, provide entertainment and interesting reading, and have fun at the same time.
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well it would certainly be one of the most unusual ideas I have ever heard of for a bow, the glitch is, it's not my idea.........
why do I feel like I am 12 again, and standing on the RR bridge over a muddy river, and being dared the first to jump? the heck with you chickens, I'ill make it bend
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Bend it Willie! We will give you all the credit sleek was just shooting off at the mouth when he mentioned it. That's like saying that every Osage bow is not an original idea just because someone long ago though of using Osage.
Patrick
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^ what he said.
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Or cottonwood, or madrone........ :laugh:
We probably ain't the first either......
may not be the last on the cottonwood at my success rate.......
to dream the impossible dream....
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I got the tji bow roughed out. here are some pics of the progress. 1-1/8" wide by 71" long
top pic is a knot hole, about 1/2" wide, 3/8"deep, in the belly
next is a finger joint that goes from back to belly, at center of handle
last are some knots that were revealed after roughing out on the band saw, out by the tip on the back
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I wish you luck with that. I think if I was to try plywood I would cut it out as if it were flat sawn not edge sawn.
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all the usual stuff that plywood bowyers are used to dealing with, so just deal with it, right?
I need to ask if backing is permissible? I can fill the knot hole on the belly, but I think if I start bending without something over those knots in the back, at the tip, it just won't bend very far. Just out of curiosity, I plan to leave the finger joint at the handle as is, I know that I could build up the handle to a non-bendy, but I want to see if that joint will hold at a strain equal to the rest of the limbs.
the top pic in the post above is my redneck power rasp. 36 grit belt generates more hair- like shavings than dust, and is held down by gravity, in the hole in the plywood over sawhorses.
works better than anything I have found yet, as far as power tools go. the level bubble sticks on the stave top with hot melt, to help me stay on the level. a better photo below
does anyone know how to write text between or after photos?
turtle, where were you before I started sawing? just kidding, I got two or three more tries left in that tji
top photo is a view of the back
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I don't have a dog in this fight but I would think if plywood is allowed then backed bows would have to be allowed.
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Hey Steve, they are allowed but not preferred, was my understanding. I guess the final winner will be chosen by vote, and I bet the most popular won't be the easiest to have pulled off. So a backed bow could compete but might not impress people if it was too simple a solution to problems others faced and overcame with an unbacked selfbow. We'd have to see what the mood of the voters was! No telling.
Sleek was talking about any crazy combination allowed like mouldings with nails in them or pieces spliced together, I think. So backing on a weird bow probably would fit in somewhere there. I think a sinew backed osage bow wouldn't count for much in this contest. But ya never know.....
Cottonwood backed with sumac might be another matter.....
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You nailed it dude.
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sumac ??
does it have fiber in it like nettles?
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Willie, interesting you chose "quarter sawn" stock out of the plywood tree! I think you're going to need to back it or it will pop at 10 lbs like my cottonwood. I might be wrong, though.
Looks nice from the photos, anyway! Glad you're going for the gold.
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actually, I think that all the plies are going the long way as it is engineered to be a flange. if so it should not matter should it?
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Sumac has a bunch of smelly pith in it, an I don't think it has fibers like nettles. at all.
Hey are you going to back your ply bow with nettles? That would be pretty radical, dude.....
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actually, I think that all the plies are going the long way as it is engineered to be a flange. if so it should not matter should it?
oh some kind of special ply, I see. Maybe you'll convert me into a believer.....
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well, we don't have netttles around here, but there could be something else that would work. I am just worried about one spot with knots on the back. The finger joint, and the rest of the back, is gonna have to get "the test"
actually the mills produce a special "bending ply" with all the plies parallel also, never seen any, just read about it
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If you back that with birch, you're gonna have pretty close to a two wood. I think comp. strength might not be too sad in that ply. Is it Douglas fir -- or a hard pine? Could be interesting....
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Emmet, I've been checking the weight on that cottonwood bow for a couple days and it has dropped 10% in 2 days, so no it was not as dry as I thought.
It's hard to believe it could get much lighter in weight, but I guess we'll find out -- I'll keep weighing it.
This surprises me, because I cut a big cottonwood -- maybe 18" diameter a few years ago, and the wood was pretty heavy and hard when it dried. It would bend nails when you tried to hammer them in.
This sapling stuff is super light and kind of soft, so far. Seems quite different. I'm going to see if I can hunt up one of those old boards -- maybe try a bow out of that to compare...
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It would bend nails when you tried to hammer them in.
wow, that hard?
I bucked up a fresh log recently and is was so soft, that when I ran the skil saw a rip down the log, It cut like butter, but the crosscut with the husky was more demanding.
early work skiff builders around here used to like it for side planks (2-3 per side), so it must have been tough enough. Natural spruce knees for ribs, but I would imagine they sawed spruce planks for the bottom tho. might look the next time I see one, there are still some rotting in the weeds nearby
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Plan b, That cotton wood is calling to you to try again.
I think I would like to back mine for added protection. I have nettles at my house and thought of trying to use them for something before but there just now coming up and since it was already suggested I think I'll try something else. Would pizza box or junk mail Qualify or is it to far from natural.
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Sounds good to me!
Nettles sting.....
Wait a minute......were you thinking plain or pepperoni?
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I dug through the recycle and picked pizza, chicken nuggets and hot pocket boxes. Thought it may be tough enough to do some good and It'll look like a race car.
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Oh, man.....with skins like that, this is shaping up to be a vicious competition...... :laugh:
Chicken nuggets....plywood edge grain......what can I do? What to do...... Well, Emmet, I think you're right. I gotta just dust myself off, get back up on that cottonwood horse and try to ride it again.
There's a healthy medium size tree up the hill a ways just waitin' for a light breeze to knock the limbs off and uproot. it.
I guess it says "bow" all over it, to the right kinda guy.
I better sharpen the Poulan.....
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Got it. Tree was about 14" dia, and I split off a 1/4 chunk 80" long using some gluts for wedges (foreground) made from dried birch saplings, that I sharpened and toasted to meke them harder. Dragged the chunk back near the house with the tractor. Mmmmmmm, cottonwood......
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Plan B
the photo of the skidder dragging a stave makes me think that the rest of the tree is still on the stump. Did you remove the stave from the tree, while it was standing, with the saw and gluts?
some cottonwood I cut earlier this winter is starting to look like good (easy) arrow making wood
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Nope Willie, I dropped the whole tree. It fell right on top of an old abandoned pine log pile left by a logging company before my time here. Popped an 8 foot long 20 inch dia pine log up into the air when it did it, too. I don't particularly like cottonwood, since it tends to crowd out the better hardwoods here. So I just cut off a stave length section, split it where it was into quarters, and wrestled that down the pile to the tractor. I don't know if I'll go back and bring the rest of the tree to the mill. Maybe.
Anyway, today I split that quarter down further, and then scraped the bark off, which I figured would be a bear this time of year up here (not really spring yet). But it came off easier than I thought. Here it is scraped mostly clean of inner bark and the ends waxed.
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After splitting the stuff down yesterday, it seemed pretty straight. After removing the bark I thought I saw a little twist developing. After sitting outside in the shed last night I'm seeing some real propeller twist. I'm wondering if it's going to be possible to make a bow out of this tree's wood. If it gets too bad, it's going in the wood stove. I suppose I could try another sapling, just to try to stick to it. But three strikes and yer out.
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Plan b cottonwood is notorious for warping and twisting as it dries. It also has a tendency to check pretty bad when speed dried. I haven't tried it for bows, but I have used it for other projects. If you seal the back and ends and clamp the roughed out stave to a good straight2x4 or bench, you might have better luck getting a workable stave. No guarantee that it'll make a bow of course, but then that's the fun of the challenge in the first place is it not? Josh
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It is Josh! Well, I decided to jump the gun and roughed out stock for another cottonwood sapling bow attempt whether or not the stave works out. The stave is too big to lash down- it's going to do what it wants -- I'll try to work with that, since there's room to move things around on it.
Loved the catalpa bow!
Cottonwood: about 5 years ago I sawed up a huge cottonwood log thinking I'd have a lifetime supply of clear wood for molding. Boy did that stuff split and twist! I ended up using some of it for patching barn planking, but a lot of it was just wasted.
I've got some other oddball stuff if this doesn't work out -- dry basswood (big leaf linden) 4x4 over 6 feet tall which could probably make a bow right away.
And I also have some striped maple saplings on the stump. That stuff seems to grow perfectly round and branchless for a good ways -- I don't think it's particularly strong -- so it might be a good challenge here.
I have one dry (I think) stave of witch hazel with a check down one side. Kind of twisty. But if the check is not a problem, I think it might make a good bow.
But I'll keep going with the cottonwood.
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The "plywood" bow got some tillering recently, it is made from a tji, with all the plies going the same way. I waited for patch on the back to cure, but It was sort of hopeless from the get go. The doug fir raised small splinters on the back at brace height. and the splinters looked more like soft flakes. Maybe damage from when the logs were peeled? At 25# @ 12" there was a lot of snap crackle pop. The " stave" was stiff and springy, maybe too dry? It blew at about 35@20"
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Its amazing you got that far! I bet you could make it all the way if you had a wider piece of ply and longer too. Are you going to try again?
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No, I do not think that I will, Sleek. There is something punky about the wood it's self. I think it gets damaged or softened when they peel the logs . Gonna try to make my own plywood.
I got to looking at a 2 x 4 of doug fir or larch. Looks like better wood than the Tji flange had
Hmmmm. maybe I can make some Plywood out of a rippings from this Home Depot stud..........and some kind of hardwood for the back...........
Here's a piece of willow from the firewood pile, a little short, but should be ok, for plywood, that is
which end of the stud would you use?
(BTW, its my opinion that there is something flawed with just about everything you find at those big box supply stores. If you know what the flaw is, the other half just might be OK.)
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Great posts guys! BTW the sapwood locust I'm working on is coming good. At floor tiller now and it'l be ready for brace after some minor corrections using steam. Some black locust saplings we have here have smooth bark and some have rough. I discovered that the rough barked ones have much denser wood than the smooth barked ones. The one I am working on had smooth bark. Bad luck.
Also if it makes it without being shattered, It will be damn fast cuz it's light as feather
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Willie, That stud looks like a good choice in the first pic. The second look mostly sap wood.
Fir That I've worked with, when wet has a lot of bend but snap easy when dry.
I've been thinking on a way to add a certain level of moister that would keep my project from being too dry to bend.
I'm thinking on warming the back then soaking in a thin oil type finish to try and keep the back intact.
I don't know if anyone has had any luck doing that type of thing or not.
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I worked on mine today and ruffed out the bow on the band saw. I made a mini bow to test how it bends and handles grain violation. It bent along way and didn't break but took a lot of set. It didn't seem to have much snap.
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Emmet
Actually those two pics are of the same stud, different ends tho.
sound like the wood you are working with might be a little too moist still, but you inquired how to keep it damp on the back? I think that I did read about someone oiling the back of pine. Are you working with hardwood or softwood?
willie
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I'm working with hard wood,Madrone for this project. Moister rite now is 10.5 %. It's real dense and if it wasn't for blue stained streaks I don't think you could see growth rings. I'll see if it does better after the moister drops. First time using this wood.
The moister in my staves seem to go below 5% after they sit a year or so. What I've tried on some is leave em in the bathroom while we shower before putting finish on. I don't think it does much for keeping the moister up. The last few I've warmed the bows with a heat gun and rubbing several heavy coats of teak oil on, I use the heat gun to drive the oil in. It seems to drink it up fairly well. Then seal with tru oil. So far I haven't found doing it this way to be bad, Is seems to be working good.
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Emmet
5% seems awfully dry. Are you in the desert? How do you tell what the moisture content of the wood is? Madrone is not a wood I am familiar with, but blue stain in other woods is a sign of being too damp
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Willie, I'm in the PNW. The Madrone has been drying in log form for close to three years. Iv'e never used it before and theres not a lot of info as far as bow making with it that I've found other then brittle, weak in tension. Since cutting it open it has been dropping moister fast. Its and 10.5 now. I expect it to hit 5% as the Osage, mulberry and elm staves I have are all at 5-7 any time I check. A little higher around 9 during rainy days but its just the surface as it drops when the rain stops. I check it with a meter.
I've been trying to see if this wood will bend without breaking so I made a small bow to monitor moister and bend. With 10.5% it bends but it's like bending rubber.
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Here's the results of my bend test on the Madrone.
At 7% moister it snapped with very little bend. This same piece at 10%
bent to about 90 degrees and stayed there.
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Emmet
I would not have thought that the M.C. would get that low unless you are on the eastside, but as you say, the surface is where the meter is reading and where the strain is the highest and the breaks get their start.
Have you tried and experiments with oil on the back? Fish oil was reportedly used in Scandinavia on the backs of spruce and pine years ago.Maybe time to troll a king?
Madrone sounds like a challenge to work with
willie
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Fish oil is easy enough to get and certainly worth a try.
I'll see how it compares.
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Just to keep the thread updated.....still waiting for cottonwood sapling and stave to dry -- weighing every day. Sapling has been roughed closer to outlines, and rasped some, but no tillering yet.
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Some photos of the sapling progress:
Chopped out, first photo:
And after drying some, rasping down.
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I finally found a sumac that's got my name on it. It must be 10"-12" in diameter which makes it a giant. It has a date with my battery chain saw in it's future. I also found another unlikely piece for bow making in my scrap area. It's a reclaimed piece of trim of an unknown hardwood. I think it might be tulip poplar, but can't remember where I got it so I'm not entirely sure on that ID. I might have a better idea when I start working it and get the stain off, but where I cut the end the wood has a greenish tint. I plan to get one more stave in the mix for this event hoping to get at least one success out of 3. I think I'm gonna check out what driftwood the beach has to offer.
Just to clarify, is it the species or the means of acquisition/ condition of the wood that determines an "bad bow wood"? Say I find a piece of yew an the beach(not likely) that has obviously spent some time floating around the lake and taken some abuse. Is that enough of an unlikely success to be used in this competition?
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Perhaps maybe a bow made from the most unlikely piece of wood, with again parameters like 40@28, voted on by participants once again. Wood being a bug hole stave or pine board or a stave nobody would consider maybe a piece of red oak cut moulding.... Something ridiculous.
Dakota, that was the original challenge --though the length can be your draw, if not 28". So anything can be entered -- whether you win with a particuar entry depends on the amusement of the voters.... :laugh:
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^ What he said that I said.
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Damn, I knew I should have grabbed some of that corkscrew Hazel from the brush pile!
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Have to admit, I'm liking Dakota's sumac plan.
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Eastern cottonwood sapling bow 63" ttt, 41# @ 28", I just finished final scraping wood this evening before dinner. Very happy to get through that, make 40 pounds, and and keep it in one piece. There was quite a bit of camber and a few knots. Actually it shoots pretty good.
Seems to hold its shape so far, too.
I kept it wide to keep stresses down.
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That's great PlanB! You have encouraged me to give cotton wood a try!
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Sapling -- I sure wouldn't make it my first choice for a sapling bow, though. I'd prefer just about anything else. I just did it for this contest. It's quite soft, so you need very sharp tools. Having a sharply cambered back makes it even harder, and I really didn't think this was going to work out.
Some tips: This second time around I didn't hollow it. I now think hollowing of this wood just concentrates the strain at the edges and over-flexes them. Second time around, the bottom was just tillered flat.
Heat tempering and forming seems to work with Eastern cottonwood.
Length is tied to draw weight on this wood and sapling dia, and there's probably a limit to it. Might even be close to 40#. I started out with a longer stave, but once I got it bending I was only getting about 1 lb/inch draw.
Leaving the wood thicker would have created set or fretting. Incrementally piking gradually increased the force/draw to closer to 2 lb/in, without seriously increasing stack, or set, and I finally settled on 63" and 41# @ 28". On the other hand, I think if I'd gone much farther with piking, set would probably negate any increase in draw weight. I think I pretty much got the most I could out of this particular cottonwood sapling. If you call that a sweet spot, I think I hit it.
Anyway, it's a good challenge, if you take it on, and a stave from a bigger tree would probably be easier. Certainly teaches a lot to work with a marginal wood.
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Raining today, I'll try to get a full draw pic tomorrow. I'll start putting a finish on it, too.
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Rained overnight. Rained this morning, so I concentrated on getting a finish on. I got a couple coats of linseed oil on, and a handle wrap and some paint. The wrap is hemp. The pattern I used is on the limbs a stylized cottonwood leaf type I found on a photo of some pottery. Seemed appropriate! This afternoon it cleared up for a short time, so I was able to get a full draw in, too.
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Looks great B! Nicely done with such a wood.
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Nice work, I like it!
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Thanks guys. Looking forward to seeing some madrone and sumac bows here, too!
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Looks good B!
Cotton wood huh, interesting.
Patrick
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I've been wondering about just what kind of poplar that is, since poplar is usually described as a white (literally) wood. This stuff is often multicolored and seems pretty hard by comparison.
I finally figured it out tonight. What Home Depot probably sells as poplar is "yellow poplar" -- actually not a poplar, but tulip tree, Liriodendron tulipfera.
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/poplar/
At least I know what it is now.
How did I miss this post the first time around? You guys need to keep finding rainbow poplar at the box stores on the down low. That's one of my secret places to get amazing wood for cheap. They don't know enough to separate it and charge more. Here's an end table I'm working on with one of the last pieces I picked up.
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/100_2847_zps6ohmce4p.jpg)
This is the piece of trim that I suspect is also poplar.
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/100_2845_zpsqgchdjoq.jpg)
If you were to buy that heavily stained poplar from an exotic hardwood supplier it would cost at least 3 times as much, probably more.
Here's a few shots of the sumac I cut and split. I guess it was't as big as I posted before, but still pretty big for a sumac. That stuff has some really sticky sap. Can you make pitch glue from it? I was also much harder to split than I expected, having heard it was a notoriously soft wood. It's got some nice color to it that's for sure. I ended up with one whole stave and enough for 2 sets of billets.
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/100_2848_zpsnqalhsbd.jpg)
It's florescent in UV as well. I reminds me of black locust both in color and how it splits.
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/100_2850_zps4noryb0u.jpg)
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Thanks Patrick!
Go Dakota!
Finally, a clear day. Few more shots of the cottonwood bow:
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Wow. I rreally like that bow. Hell of a job!
Im looking forward to seeing what others come up with as well!
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Whoops, I let the deadline slip us by. Id like to have had more participating members but we had a few and they tried hard. So, if you participated as a bow builder on this thread email me with who you think should win. Dont vote for yourself. I hope we dont tie lol.
Email me at rocketernally@Hotmail.com title it bow contest so i see it quick.
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I'm impressed by that cottonwood bow, that really awesome. Grows everywhere around here like a weed and it's very brittle and soft wood.
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I didn't realize I missed the deadline. :( I haven't seen this thread around for a while and it slipped my mind. I have one bow almost finished, the tulip poplar I salvaged from a piece of trim. Oh well, next time I suppose, providing we do another bad wood build.
FYI After working on the tulip poplar, I wouldn't necessarily consider it a "bad" wood, unless I just had an exceptional piece.
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Hurry up amd post what you got done.
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That cottonwood bow looks pretty slick, Plan B! I know during the late spring, with all the cottonwoods in town littering the streets with their "cotton", I would like to turn a few into bows! >:D
So, out of curiosity, what's the cast like on the bow?
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I'll see if I can finish tillering by the end of the day. I'll post what I have this evening.
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Well I think I'll let the pictures do the talking.
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/4_copy_zps69uw5pp2.jpg)
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/3_copy_zpsd4npg2az.jpg)
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/2_copy_zpsxeam5u9h.jpg)
This one sums things up nicely.
(http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m509/dakota_kid1/1_copy_zpssghuo93l.jpg)
If I had to guess, I'd say I didn't exercise the limbs enough. That's what I get for trying to rush things. It could have been a defect in the wood as well, but there was none apparent. I did get one arrow out of it before she blew, a bulls eye none the less. I'll probably try using tulip poplar again at some point. It seemed pretty snappy for that one shot. I'll probably back the next one though.
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Guys, am i getting more than one person to vote on this?
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Dakota.... What specie's of sumac is that. We have mostly smooth sumac here and it is white all the way to the pith.
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I forgot to post my humble submission. It's probably too late, but here's my submission. Northern catalpa. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56427.msg772370.html#msg772370. How do we go about voting? Josh
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Just email me at rocketernally@hotmail.com with who you wanna win.
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Ok, well, PlanB seems to be the crowd favorite. Pm me with your address and I will be sending you a knife. Absolutely beautiful bow by the way. How is it holding up?