Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PaulN/KS on February 09, 2016, 11:15:26 pm
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OK, trying something different, for me, with some bamboo and a nice clean slat of quarter sawn osage. It's a narrow strip of bamboo and the slat is about 3/8 thick but there is a nice light long bow just waiting to be built from this material.
What is the best, and readily available, glue for putting this together these days? I'm thinking a slow set epoxy would work but I've been wrong before. ???
Any and all tips or advice will be greatly appreciated.
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I've tried several and smooth on is the best, period
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Smooth On is great. So is Unibond.
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I have used unibond with great results, but I hear smooth on is very high quality glue as well.
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Smooth on will give you a lot of working time which is always good. I never tried unibond but plan to give it a try. I still use mostly tightbond but I agree the epoxies are better.
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I've been very happy with UniBond, ...but have also had good results with Titebond 2 and 3. I've yet to try SmoothOn, but would like to.
OneBow
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Thanks for the input . I'd forgotten about TB3 being good for this sort of job. I might give that a try since it's just for this project and I can get a fresh bottle when I go to town.
The Uni-bond and Smooth-on look good but the left overs will likely go to waste since I'm not usually a glue up kinda guy.
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<snip>
The Uni-bond and Smooth-on look good but the left overs will likely go to waste since I'm not usually a glue up kinda guy.
I stick my can of leftover UniBond in the Freezer. It'll keep in there indefinitely.
OneBow
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^^
Good tip Eric, thanks.
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If you use TB3? You better move damn fast and have everything set up and ready to go. You will have no more than 15 minutes to get it all clamped.
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There is quite a few more user friendly bow suitable epoxies than smooth on. They don't require a hot box to maximise the glue characteristics.
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There is quite a few more user friendly bow suitable epoxies than smooth on. They don't require a hot box to maximise the glue characteristics.
You have my attention... How about the regular 2 ton Devcon type.
I've used it for years on knives and it's held up just fine but wasn't sure if it would work for this sort of application.
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If you use TB3? You better move damn fast and have everything set up and ready to go. You will have no more than 15 minutes to get it all clamped.
If I have a difficult glue up I try to do it early in the morning when it is cool and damp or late in the evening. On a warm day I doubt you have 10 safe minutes.
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I use West Systems 105 resin and 205(fast) hardener. I get hours of working time and it cures overnight in a 60 degree shop. No shelf life problems. The stuff I'm using now is 3 or 4 years old. If the resin gets too cold it goes grainy like honey. Put it in a pot of warm water and it clears right up(like honey)
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There is quite a few more user friendly bow suitable epoxies than smooth on. They don't require a hot box to maximise the glue characteristics.
You have my attention... How about the regular 2 ton Devcon type.
I've used it for years on knives and it's held up just fine but wasn't sure if it would work for this sort of application.
No, I haven't heard much good about it in a flexing application.
West G-flex, System Three T-88, G-2 and Gel Magic are all great epoxies.
G-2 and Gel Magic also resist high temperature (160-170) after curing. That's hot car safe. ;)
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Smooth on cures in 24 hours and as far as a hot box here in nor cal i just stick it in the truck cab works great, but like it says cures at room temp in 24 hrs and is quite a bit cheaper than west and g2, my main reason to use it is pot life and no slip but we can argue this crap all day and not accomplish anything
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The only point was that without a hot box smooth-on does not attain high temp resistance or likely its maximum strength. The other epoxies may just be more readily available locally for some. By the time I pay shipping for smooth-on it's going to be more expensive.
Sure we can use our vehicles when it's warm out but that's not much good when you're building in the middle of winter. ;)
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I don't have a hot box . Thanks for the info about the Devcon, good to know.
I'll have to see what the availability of some of those other type epoxys mentioned is here in NE Ks.?
Considering the fact that this is likely a one time deal maybe the TB3 route is best for me.
I'll just need to do the glue up to some fast music in the shop.. ;)
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In the past I have used Resorciol, Urac, Titebond II & III, and Smooth-on, for BBO's with good results. By far, Smooth-on is my favorite. If you use Titebond, do a couple of dry practice runs first to get all of your clamps and what not organized, it speeds up the process. When the dry run is assembled check it closely for any gaps or stiff (straight) spots.
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Titbond III is hella strong and great stuf, but, as mentioned, you need very well mated surfaces, and you have only a little time during glue up. I almost always do any glue up in stages with TB III, like if you have a handle, limb wedges, or power lamination to do, don't try to get all that AND the backing on.
I also have good success slapping a sizing coat of TB III on the laminations. I pour some glue into a cup and add a little water until it feels runny, but thick like house paint. I paint it on the surfaces, leave it a moment, and scrape off the excess with a popsicle stick. In a few minutes, while still tacky, I quickly load up one surface heavily with glue and lay them up. I think it really works well, but you have to watch out for some woods wanting to cup when you wet them.
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Thanks for the TB3 info and tips.
This will be a fairly simple glue up of the thin flat piece of 1/4 sawn osage to the bamboo. Once that is done I'll add the piece for the handle.
It's a narrow, 7/8", strip of bamboo and the osage "board" is only about 3/8" thick so I have a nice block of narrow ring osage for the handle.
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Many people note that TB will creep visibly where your glued on handle transitions through the fades.
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I hate TB!!! No plans on ever going back to it for anything other than snakeskin backing! It creeps like no tomorrow. I use smooth on and love it, just sand everything with 36 grit paper before the glueup.
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Creeping, especially in the dips, is unacceptable.
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OK, what is "creep"..?
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When the glue is soft enough to allow the wood to move at the joint. Laminations slip a little and the smoothly blended pieces will develop a "lip" where the handle piece joins the belly section.
Think of it the way a glacier moves across the land.
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Ah, thanks Pat. I shall watch out for that when I do the glue up.
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You won't see it until later. The wood needs to experience bending stress and moisture and temperature fluctuation to let the movement happen.
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If the glue line is thick enough to allow creep you have bad glue line. TB won't tolerate any gaps to speak of.
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I've still heard of guys making invisible glue lines having problems with TB in that area,
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Oh ARRRRRGH.... ???
Now I see why I have avoided making any bows that required glue. ::)
Thanks guys.
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It's smooth on being used here and always has.I picked up the usage from a couple of long toothed FG bow makers.36 grit and a sizing to both surfaces.C clamps/innertube wrapping/and pressurized hoses all work.I think they try for about 70 pounds of pressure but that's hard to guage with c clamps etc.Even so I hav'nt had any failures.Could say that about hide glue too though.....lol.Works well on sleeves too filling gaps up to 1/16" thick.Overlays too.
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Oh warming your wood up like over a wood stove I think can be beneficial.Might be superstcious but it makes sense to me.
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Oh warming your wood up like over a wood stove I think can be beneficial.Might be superstcious but it makes sense to me.
I've heard of this one too but never have tried it yet. I kinda makes sense though... I have actually used a heat gun to force glue to set quickly when trying to fill a void in the wood.
OneBow
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I've still heard of guys making invisible glue lines having problems with TB in that area,
I agree it is not as good as the epoxies. I don't believe it creeps though. I just think it lets go in areas that are flexing. I have had problems myself in the fade areas. I don't like to use the TB3 on bows longer than about 62" and 50#. A lot of mine have let go and formed that lip several years after they were finished.
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If you use Unibond, it just has to be in a room that's above 70 degrees to cure. I know a guy who drapes a small plastic tarp over his form and uses a shop light for the heat source. O/w a hot box is really simple to make if you want to use Smooth On. Mine is just a piece of plywood for the floor and a cut up 4' by 8' piece of insulation, held together with good old duct tape. A shop light with a 75W bulb inside gets it up around 100 degrees. Never had a glue up that failed with either epoxy.
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I have never had this "creeping" experience with TB III. It dries like a very hard plastic, but does have some flexibility to it, so I could see it being possible. I haven't made a laminated bow without a solid power lam for, like 16 or 18 years, though, so maybe my power-lams are saving me there. Just never had it happen.
Once, I remember the glue line at the base of the handle block going from barely there, almost invisible, to slightly wider, but it didn't spalt, lift, or develop a lip. I kept checking on it while hunting with that bow, and never could feel anything there. i guessed at the time that maybe the handle lams shrank a tad as humidity fluctuated, but since it wasn't a problem never got farther than that.
One thing I DID learn about TB III bows is to leave them on the form longer. I used to use URAC, which would be hard as a rock overnight, but I noticed that if I used the drying times suggested on the TB bottle, I would lose more R/D than I thought I should have. I started leaving them on the form a couple or three days, taking them inside in the winter, and even putting them in my car or hotbox, and it seems like they hold the form's shape better.
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Thanks for the added input. It's just a straight glue the boo to the slat job, no form.
I have the bamboo ready and just need to trim the 1/4 sawn slat of hedge before I get to gluing up.