Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ajooter on January 01, 2016, 10:58:01 am

Title: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Now a question about my handle wrap?!
Post by: ajooter on January 01, 2016, 10:58:01 am
Well I most likely ended this nice hickory staves life before it even had a chance but I'm gonna try to still turn it into a bow.  Both limbs had some serious twist in them so I decided to try and heat treat and perform a correction at the same time.  I was able to get almost all the twist out of the top limb but the bottom limb still has a little twist in it.  Unfortunately I added way too much reflex at the same time.  There are pictures of the reflex that was induced and the bottom limb.  I will post pictures of the bow at low braced on a tillering stick to show the extent of the twist later.  I was wondering if any of you guys will forgo straightening a stave as opposed to just tillering the twist out of a bow depending on the degree of twist.  Thanks for any input.
Aaron
(http://i.imgur.com/qgbwgmB.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/RFo9UKf.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/LzBh1Ql.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 01, 2016, 11:08:24 am
I just ignore the twist unless it is excessive and take it out if I have to.
More on my site.
If  a stave has problems I don't add reflex. I actually seldom add reflex anyway.
Jawge

http://traditionalarchery101.com/fixtwist.html


Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 01, 2016, 11:09:34 am
So it is twisted 180 degrees or all the way around?
Jawge
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: ajooter on January 01, 2016, 11:14:31 am
The stave is roughly 65" and 1.5" wide to midlimb...asymmetrical limbs.  George I don't think the twist is any where near 180 degrees.  I really posted this a little prematurely because u don't have a braved pic yet, but I'm in the car for a couple hours and wanted to get something up.  The stave was already reflexed and I got WAY carried away.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: Eric Krewson on January 01, 2016, 11:17:28 am
I wouldn't try to tiller out twist, you will end up with a very thin limb on one side and probably still have the twist.

I have found out that minor twist like you have will often shoot out during a bow's break-in.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: ajooter on January 01, 2016, 11:28:24 am
I did have similar experience with a maple board bow I made eric.  The twist did eventually shoot out.  I'll keep posting pics of my progress.  Thank you for your thoughts guys.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: Del the cat on January 01, 2016, 11:34:32 am
The bow will draw back along the line it wants to, if you just shape the grip to suit that natural draw plane it will prob' shoot sweet and true.
I think it's only an issue if the bow is trying to toque in your hand.
I'm working on one at the moment, if it's strung at about 1/2" brace the string line looks awful and the bow looks to have an S shape and the limbs to be sort of angled. Once it's at a decent brace it look fine and pulls true.
If I let the bow dangle from the string nock I can see the string line is fine.... sometimes it just sorts itself out.
Del
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: wizardgoat on January 01, 2016, 11:57:24 am
I'm not a fan of twist, but I usually keep them as is.
If it moves in your hand left or right it will need to be fixed, but if not, save yourself a headache.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: bradsmith2010 on January 01, 2016, 01:04:08 pm
I agree with above, get it strung,, and see what she does,, it you get the string to line up,, I think you have a bow :) some of the reflex is gonna come out,, just go slow,, let the bow sweat some when you get it strung ,, so it can settle in on its own,,,
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: ajooter on January 01, 2016, 03:31:02 pm
Sounds like sound advice to me...I'll be getting after it this weekend!
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: Stick Bender on January 01, 2016, 04:08:09 pm
I'm  working on a Maple bow with the same twist problem tried tillering it out while the bow is still heavy to no avail, so I took Brads advice & left it in. I will let you know how it works out.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: BowEd on January 02, 2016, 07:39:52 am
Bet you turn out with a really nice bow there.That stick won't break even with that amount of reflex.I like hickory.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 02, 2016, 10:11:22 am
Sorry. I got confused looking at that picture where you are holding the stave. I guess I didn't see much twist there so I assumed it was a really large twist.
See what happens and how the string lines up after you string it.
Typically, I leave handles and nocks wide until at least the fist stringing to aid in string alignment.
Jawge
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: ajooter on January 02, 2016, 10:58:28 am
I should have left the handle area wider George your right.  The tips are still about 3/4" so I have a little wiggle there.  I have no problem steaming the handle to tweeking the tips into alignment.  I'm tillering each limb individually in my vise to try to get an even bend in each limb on account of the stupid amount of reflex I put into the bow.  They are already pretty close just a little more work before I get it to the tree.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: Stick Bender on January 02, 2016, 06:18:23 pm
I took Brads advice & left the twist alone & just started tillering not done but it disappeared.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave?
Post by: ajooter on January 02, 2016, 07:27:04 pm
Looks like it's coming along....get that right limb bending and the inner 2/3s of the left limb.  I'll hopefully get some pics up tomorrow of progress on mine.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update would like some input please
Post by: ajooter on January 10, 2016, 06:06:18 pm
Well I wasn't able to get all the twist out of the bottom limb.  The top limb came around nicely.  The picture on the tree shows the bow at 22" @30#.  I am drawing it by hand out to about 24"  I don't know what it is about drawing a bow on a tillering tree but it makes me crazy nervous!  The bow is an asymmetrical design, top limb being about 1.5" longer, parallel to midlimb at 1.5"  and tapering to now 1/2" tips.  As of right now there is a slight positive tiller at maybe 1/8".  I lost some of the reflex I tillered into it but I expected that.  After two steaming sessions on the handle I think I got it where I wanted it.  Just wanted to get your thoughts on the tiller thus far.

(http://i.imgur.com/a8SmlJT.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/qbKdzQe.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/3RFnmY9.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/xDoxeWF.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/AXsokGL.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/BwH50r1.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: ajooter on January 10, 2016, 06:15:54 pm
I foroot to add that the bow was intended for my aunts husband and I would have to tiller it out to 29".  Looking back I wish I left it wider as well but it is what it is.  I do have some rawhide I could back it with.  Right now it has some of the cambium left on that I lightly removed with a scraper.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 10, 2016, 06:57:07 pm
Tiller looks great. If you are backing it, now is the time.
What is the ntn length?
Jawge
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: ajooter on January 10, 2016, 07:12:45 pm
I just realized I didn't note the length...it's 64" George.  If u go for that drawlength do you think I need to back it? 
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: BowEd on January 10, 2016, 08:08:23 pm
That bow lined up nice for ya like I thought it would.Nice work.Hickory is hard to break.I've tillered a few 64" hickories to a 29" draw length.Narrower than yours.It'll handle it.You might lose a little more reflex but you've got some to spare it looks like.You can put rawhide on but I really don't think you'll need it.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: ajooter on January 10, 2016, 08:16:37 pm
Thank you for the encouraging words guys.  I didn't take the cambium off as neatly as I would have liked so I may clean the last 6" up on the tips and back it.  I'm thinking about staining it first similar to gordans vine maple in the build along he just did and then backing it.  I will get it to full draw first of course...fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: TimPotter on January 10, 2016, 08:48:18 pm
Really nice work. Tiller looks spot on to me. Love the handle area.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Tiller Update input is welcome please
Post by: ajooter on January 12, 2016, 08:16:26 pm
So I tillered out to 26"@37#.  I heard a pop and just about puked on my shoes.  I looked all over the bow and found a spot on the back where I think some of the cambium came loose.  I think I'm going to rawhide back it and then finish tillering it out to hopefully 29".  Any thoughts on the pics?
(http://i.imgur.com/jQ4fIrt.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/j0eGDFK.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: Danzn Bar on January 12, 2016, 08:25:28 pm
IMHO...It's hickory....I think is was just cambium....I would not back it and continue.............. :) JIMHO
DBar
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: ajooter on January 12, 2016, 08:28:43 pm
This has got to be the worst part of tillering...when your right there and you just need a couple more inches....does it get easier or does everybody get butterflies at this point?!
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: Pappy on January 13, 2016, 06:49:29 am
Looking good, if that is cambium you should be fine,I always like to take as much of that off that I can just because of that reason. I can't tell from the picture if it popped at the knot , if so that ant good. :-\ if not you should be good. And yes it gets a little easier but I still get a little antsy especially if I am going for a long draw length and I conceder 29 pretty long for a 64 inch bow. Is that 64 N-N or T-T.
 Pappy
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: ajooter on January 13, 2016, 07:24:03 am
It's ttt on this bow pappy....there are some small pin knots there but the cambium came off around it.   In hindsight I would have definitely started the bow longer and been able to save myself a lot of grief.  I may finish it out at 28 and see if it fits him.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: Pappy on January 13, 2016, 09:01:19 am
Cool, I always like to check a person's draw with a light bow and arrow marked and tell them not try and be macho just draw it like you normally would, lot of folks think or say they have a 28/29/30 draw but I find very few really do when checked. :) Hickory is really tough but with pins you never know as with any wood. ;)
 Pappy
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 13, 2016, 09:12:10 am
Are you sure that is cambium?
What Pappy said.
I was helping a man who swore he had a 29" draw.
It was 25"
I vote for a rawhide backing.
Head'em up! Move'em out.
Jawge
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: ajooter on January 13, 2016, 10:23:51 am
Good advice on both fronts fellas....I'm gonna rawhide back it and tiller it to 28"
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: bradsmith2010 on January 13, 2016, 02:18:30 pm
yes I agree with rawhide back,, sometimes a little issue,, is a call to action,, and yes it would probably make a bow as is,, but it even has a better chance if you back it,, just a little extra work for some peace of mind is ok for me,,, also I agree,, the bow might be a bit  longer next time,, a little over built for a bow you are giving someone,, is a good idea,, :)
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Bit of a problem....maybe
Post by: ajooter on January 15, 2016, 10:10:38 pm
Well I got her backed...gonna start the finishing process this weekend I'll post the progress.  Thanks for all the encouragement fellas.

(http://i.imgur.com/3WBV9rT.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/rPv1bus.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Rawhide backed now
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 16, 2016, 09:04:06 am
That's good. Jawge
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Rawhide backed now
Post by: ajooter on January 16, 2016, 06:48:44 pm
Got some of the artwork done on the tip limb.  I have some tanned alligat or skin I'm going to use for the handle wrap.  I originally wanted to stain the bow a similar color to gordans vine maple he posted in the build along section.  I have a bunch of different color stains.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Rawhide backed now
Post by: ajooter on January 16, 2016, 06:49:31 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/qzrC03P.jpg?1)
Forgot the pic
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Rawhide backed now
Post by: Chief RID on January 17, 2016, 08:41:30 am
Thanks for taking me along on this one. It sure is turning out nice.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Rawhide backed now
Post by: ajooter on January 17, 2016, 10:06:48 am
(http://i.imgur.com/Wh1vxWV.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/orVVprp.jpg?1)
Built up the front of the handle a little bit with some cork.
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Rawhide backed now
Post by: ajooter on January 22, 2016, 08:43:27 pm
Well I got some color on the bow and the handle wrap which is tanned alligator skin I got from a fur trappers convention 3 years ago.  A problem arose in that the bottom of the handle wrap came in a little loose.  I thought about cutting a small v notch in the bottom and pulling the corners in and superglueing them down.  I also thought about putting some glue underneath the loose leather and crimping the leather together forming a small ridge in the center of the bottom of the handle.  I wanted to know if anybody else had an opinion on resolving this.  I really don't want to redo the wrap but if I need to I will.

(http://i.imgur.com/dkYEbBN.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/flioT8v.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/2bW4LCk.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/JBvE6Vy.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Tillerin twist out of a stave? Now a question about my handle wrap?!
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 23, 2016, 09:19:52 am
AJ, I believe I would do what you proposed. It will look just fine. Very nice bow. Jawge