Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: riverrat on October 19, 2015, 02:10:45 pm
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hi, i like making replicas of Native American style bows. on this sight i have seen several sudbury type bows over the years that people had made. some of the things that get my attention is it has a handle. most Native style bows were D bows.looking at a drawing in a book called N.A. BOWS ARROWS AND QUIVERS VOL. 1 on page 34 is a Wampanoag bow, the famous Sudbury bow. looking at it and taking in its style, looks rather modern for those times in N.America, or more so European to some extent.for those times.which got me to thinking. did any other tribes have such a handled bow? that kind of style? then looking at the map of tribes in the northeast theres the Onandaga on page 64. further inland from the coast with a very similar handled bow.these bows have handles thick enough in relation of limb thickness to say they didnt bend through the handle.gets me wondering could Europeans with bows influenced this design? could they have sailed to the coast of N.America and maybe came into contact with tribes such as those mentioned? when i read about viking bows {these are those Europeans i was thinking might of sailed here}, i came across 3 different types the used. something like a recurve. a simpler style of a English long bow than the English made, and the Holmegaard bow .being made of Ash, Yew, or Elm.the later two resembles the Sudbury bow to some degree and those two styles {long bow and Holmegaard } could be made of the many hardwoods found in what is now the eastern U.S. of that time period.anyone want to chime in thoughts, insight, or guesses of what might of lead up to this style of bow? Tony
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I have often thought the same Tony. Having grown up only a few miles from where that bow was "obtained", I can say that there are more than a few sites where many believe that the vikings may have settled or maintained contact (within a hundred miles) Of course the "experts" and archaeologists have debated this contact endlessly in the past. I haven't followed the discussion in many years, but did read an interesting book called Cod , by Mark Kurlansky, which suggests that northern european fishermen crossed much earlier than the government sponsored "discoverers". It's suggested that the Spanish government may have actually been forced to find the secret Basque fishing spot, as the fishery had grown to such an extent by 1492, that the balance of trade in Europe was tilting because of the import of salt cod as a commodity.
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Give the Natives some credit for being innovative. ;) I believe most of those bows pre-date the use of handle risers in Europe.
Any designs that seem borrowed are more likely to be influenced by later generations coming over the land bridge from Asia. Retro tips and sinew backing likely came from there.
Remember even after the land bridge closed the same people lived on either side of the straight and communication, trade and ideas was still an active thing even though you couldn't just walk back and forth.
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I believe most of those bows pre-date the use of handle risers in Europe
I believe the discussion is about the sudbury bow, Pat. Are you aware of NA handled designs predating the viking era? Is there much stock given to the idea that the northern type (eskimo) bows may have come from the east (greenland and possibly viking), and southern handled types deriving from northern influence?
willie
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Some northwest coast bows have narrowed and deeper handle sections as well, and look to bend very little if at all through the handle.
I think Pat was jus suggesting that the maker of the Sudbury bow could have designed it without the knowledge of European bows.
I believe the Eskimo bows were directly influenced from the asiatic composites. Just my opinion
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I think the vikings were in "vinland" - best example l'anse aux meadows, where parts of a chilldren's bow is found.
I think also the vikings hadn't flatbows like the holmegaard (the origin is dated 6500 b.c.).
The haithabu bows (dated around 1000 a.c) are all long, small and d-shaped. Other bows from this time that were found in europe are also d-shaped and small and measured from 5 feet to 6 feet 7". Some of them are probably bending through the grip (the shorter ones)
The sudbury bow looks more like the neolithic bows of europe (holmegaard, bodman (3500 b.c.))
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I believe most of those bows pre-date the use of handle risers in Europe
I believe the discussion is about the sudbury bow, Pat. Are you aware of NA handled designs predating the viking era? Is there much stock given to the idea that the northern type (eskimo) bows may have come from the east (greenland and possibly viking), and southern handled types deriving from northern influence?
willie
I was referring to that bow. It's from the 1600s while the use of a handle riser and fades was a much later development in Europe, at least from people likely to have brought any bow influences over.
I think the use of a riser and fades is more likely to be a result of access to European tools rather than bow ideas.
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@PatM
have a look to the neolithic bows of europe: holmegaard, tybrind vig, bodman, Ashcott Heath, Meare Heath, Mollegabet...
the use of handle risers and fades is a few thousand years older than 1600 a.c. - as I wrote above the sudbury looks like the neolithic bows....
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I think either is possible,, or that the similar design could have developed without any contact,,, :)
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or may be the contact was from outer space 8)
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I think the outer space connection is a definite possibility, :)
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I was just reading about the l'anse aux meadows site the other day. Seems like the site was fairly easy to study as it was relativity untouched location. I was surprised to see in that article some theories advanced about the translation of the word "vineland? The take away I got was that if vineland did not refer to the wild grapes found in southern New England, then the vikings did not visit the more southerly locations. Implying that the vikings did not go someplace, seems like more of the obfuscation that has always surrounded any investigation about viking settlements in the new world, although I must admit that they were not promoting the "columbus was first" bs anymore.
At any rate, the more southerly locations were more heavily settled , and the better real estate remodeled on many occasions since, more than might have been previously thought by N Americans and for sure by the later Europeans, making viking finds that might establish there presence in Massachusetts, hard to make sense of.
Brad- the alien influence is further south in the DC area.
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that seems to make since about the DC area :)
as far as the handle development ,, I think it could happen quite naturally,, if I had a nice wide piece of wood I was working,, and didnt want to loose weight by making it narrow,, what would I do to be able to shoot it,, well I would narrow the handle,,, :)
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@PatM
have a look to the neolithic bows of europe: holmegaard, tybrind vig, bodman, Ashcott Heath, Meare Heath, Mollegabet...
the use of handle risers and fades is a few thousand years older than 1600 a.c. - as I wrote above the sudbury looks like the neolithic bows....
If you are suggesting those guys nipped over to North America and left bow designs and no DNA you may want to explore what typically happens when dudes get on boats and seek out far lands. ;)
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People can generally come to similar conclusions even when separated, a logical mind that can think through a problem is what leads to such conclusions I think.
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I was just reading about the l'anse aux meadows site the other day. Seems like the site was fairly easy to study as it was relativity untouched location. I was surprised to see in that article some theories advanced about the translation of the word "vineland? The take away I got was that if vineland did not refer to the wild grapes found in southern New England, then the vikings did not visit the more southerly locations. Implying that the vikings did not go someplace, seems like more of the obfuscation that has always surrounded any investigation about viking settlements in the new world, although I must admit that they were not promoting the "columbus was first" bs anymore.
At any rate, the more southerly locations were more heavily settled , and the better real estate remodeled on many occasions since, more than might have been previously thought by N Americans and for sure by the later Europeans, making viking finds that might establish there presence in Massachusetts, hard to make sense of.
Brad- the alien influence is further south in the DC area.
Wild Grapes are found in Canada as well. There is no reason to believe vineland has to be any further south than the Gulf of St Lawrence.
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wild grapes huh? ever been to any woods in Ohio, it could be vinland lol.this kind of stuff makes me wonder. it could very possibly be a home grown idea. as for the style of that bow. but it could of been influenced as well from outside. no way im buying it was aliens though, they never found any range finders ,lazer sights or wrist mountable computer angle compensators...dont ask me how i know that about them martian bows...oh. i wasnt suppose to let that slip.lol Tony
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It does seem that everyone here is using the words "could have' judiciously. And of course anything was possible. Not necessarily coming to conclusions yet.
Pat- I have spent a lot of time with guys on boats, and your observation of what typically happens is spot on. However it is interesting to note that the first "successful" settlement of the new world didn't occur until European diseases took a huge toll on the Native Americans. There are reports of many large empty settlements, decimated by epidemic. Of course they would be on the better sites, and the Europeans moved right in at a staggering rate after 1620. Seems that the vikings complained about the "skraelings" dissuading them from their endeavors. What do you think might have happened to the half European children?
I had not heard that about the range of the wild grapes, it opens up the possibilities even further. It is certainly easier to speculate about what might have been, than to defend assertations of what didn't happen, as commonly happens when some of the folks who make a living at this stuff sometimes are prone to do. Are you sure it wasn't martians, Tony?
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It is well documented that English settlers set up in Virginia in 1607 which predates the Sudbury bow. Its not difficult to believe that English settlers had brought longbows with them. Guess that is irrelevant though since they were bend in the handle bows as well.
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Hi gang, I've been following this post with interest and trying to observe without taking sides as far as the possible origins of the Sudbury-style bow is concerned. Who barrowed from whom first I can't speculate. But this discussion has me realizing that many/most of the older composite bows which were used by the Persians, Egyptians, Huns, Ottomans, Mongols, etc. had deeper narrowed handles. Giving the interaction between the northern European Christian countries and the Muslims of Asia Minor during the Crusades, Europeans would have been familiar with handles and different designs...just thinking out loud.
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I think implying that natives of the east were not capable of independent invention as simple as a narrowed handle is a little insulting. National Geographic History magazine just came out with an article on Vikings in the new world. In it it was stated they did travel as far south as New England, but were not able to land as it was heavily populated by unfriendly people. I've considered the sheephorn bows of the great basin and plains could have had a asiatic influence as well as the paddle bows of California and northwest(also narrowed handle). It just seems mote likely that these things were figured out on their own IMHO. Good topic though.
Bows of eastern Siberia are very much like Eskimo bows from what I have seen.
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not implying that at all. it very well could be that it was a well thought out design . it just seems odd the one needle in a haystack of different kinds of needles. Tony
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i like Native American bows of all the types they made. they are all well thought out designs. all worked for what 10,000 years or so? tells me its a good design.Tony
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I dont think it is a needle in the haystack, there were thousands of bows made that we know nothing about, what we have left to study, is a very small percentage of the bows that were made in those thousands of years, and probably not representative of what the real story my be,, hard to piece together a true view,, with such little evidence,, at least that is what my archeologist friend tells me,, :)