Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: root on September 27, 2015, 10:42:15 am
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Where is a good place to buy a ready to shoot English war bow?
I'm not interested in making one only the arrows.
I see the prices are from 50.00 USD to the sky is the limit.
Are the ones on Ebay that are strung with 550 paracord any good? they are a synthetic bow.
I'm no archer so I won't shoot it much but I will shoot it once in a while maybe 2x a year.
I'm really looking for a test bow to test Tudor bodkins I forge.
Speaking of forge off I go to smack metal.
Thanks
Rich
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I'm no expert but I would advise extreme caution if buying anthing sold as a warbow unseen from the internet - and invest in lots of personal protective equipment before you draw it.
Alternatively as you are making Tudor bodkins you presumably know other people with similar interests - ask around and there may well be a friendly warbow enthusiast near you to hook up with.
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If the bow you get has enough draw weight to actually qualify as an EWB and you're not a regular archer then there's no point in getting one as you will not be able to safely shoot the thing, it takes a lot of effort and practice to be able to even draw one of these bows.
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If you are really only going to use it for testing purposes, you could probably find someone trustworthy who you could mail the points to who could test them for you with their own warbow. If you can't find someone locally, that is.
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Those para cord strung bows are made from PVC pipe. I have a friend who makes them, they actually shoot pretty good but aren't much in the looks department compared to a real wood bow.
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Thanks I really don't plan on shooting much again enough to see them work.
There is no one local that shoots a standard bow everything around here is compound.
I can't even get a string for my bow local so I braid heavy string for it.
It's used mostly for fun and string arrows into trees to pull a cable and saw down branches.
I forge period correct sharp pointy items and other things. when I forge something from history it's historically period correct as close as possible.
And that's where my interest lies in the arrows. History.
They are easy enough to hammer out. and looking at the type 16 it seems simple enough too, the more I look at it.
Just as easy as a type 7,8, or 10
So the 550 stung bows are pvc... Hmmm who would have thought.
I have a whole lot of research to do before I construct a full arrow.
And a few more anvil tools to make just for Medieval arrows, mainly patterns/gauges for repetition.
It's important to me that the only difference between mine and the ones from history are age.
That's what brings me to this site, research on arrows of antiquity that were/are hand forged.
Not just the European ones but ones of all historic value.
Once I know more about the arrow heads themselves I wouldn't be against mailing them out.
Once they are consistent with size, shape, and weight.
For now I'm still working out details.
I am taken back that they are so easy to forge and fast to turn out.
I should have started forging them 20 years ago.
Thanks
RIch
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You'd be better off with a cross bow if you want to just test your points.
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Are you case hardening your heads? For me that's the biggest difference. Loads of people are making their own now, to a really high standard, but not many are case hardening with period correct materials.
Have a go at the Type 16, its an intriguing thing. I recently set a friend in Slovakia a small challenge of producing a Type 16 with a half inch socket weighing just 10 grams. He made a stunning one that was 11.8g which I'm the very proud owner of!
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There is no one local that shoots a standard bow everything around here is compound.
Thats the feeling a lot of us have, but you would be surprised what how close by some folks with similar interests are....
It might help if you mention where you are located, as there are people from all over the world posting here.
btw, thats some nice forging you posted in the intro forum
ps. folks here like pics!
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Thanks for the compliment on the forgings. Been at it for better part of 20 years with new stuff to learn every day.
I do have a crossbow that I plan on making my own bolts for. Standard recurve probably form the 60's or 70's bought it used.
I have a big fat pile of aluminum bolts for it.
I'm located in Scranton Pa. North America. Added it to my profile but it's not showing up next to my name.
I'm planning on forging out some more tips tomorrow today was spent working on a tool production for a viking axe that is forged a certain way. I also made a 5 degree 1/2 inch steel dowel today for thee bodkins. I'm hoping tomorrow to forge out 9 or ten flattened cones and trace them out until I get one that will be consistent with what I need when I scarf and wrap the cone.
That way I have a know dimension of the size "fish tail" I have to flatten before I wrap the cone.
Then a length gauge so I know how long they need to be for the hot cut.
And yes I will harden the the 1st 1/2 or 3/4 of the tip back to the shoulder.
What I have found so far is about 200 Grn. weight and 1 1/2 long for a standard square point bodkin.
and 1 1/4 inches for the long ones. these are for the 1/2 inch shafts.
I'm not finding much on the way of the type 16 for shaft diameter or length on museum sites though.
thanks for the weight on the type 16 that's a big help and one less thing to hunt out.
Could you give me length and width ( bottom where the cutting fins flare out at the cone)
And what is the shaft diameter? 3/8 1/2 inch????
I'm not see anything on the so called rope cuter that appears to be more of a soft target game arrow.
or the firebasket arrow heads either.
Rich
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Mark Stretton uses a flat steel template for his, with spoon shape, hot cut length and shaft diameter hole all on one small square of steel. Dead handy. The spoon is drawn by simply measuring the circumference of the socket of a complete head all the way along, and plotting that flat, plus a bit extra for the overlap.
A good Type 16 shouldn't really have flared out fins - the barbs which are fire welded onto the socket should be incredibly close to the socket, so that they look from a distance like one solid head. The Tudor bodkin was likely an evolution of these, where the barbs just became one with the socket. I think the heavily flared or "swept" Type 16s are more imaginative than historical.
This is the Type 16 that was made for me, and is being tested at the moment. It was based on an existing find in the London Museum, and is virtually identical to about 7 of the ones in that collection. The socket is 1/2".
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMG_20150922_140920646_zpsn9qrpaj7.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMG_20150922_140920646_zpsn9qrpaj7.jpg.html)
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WillS or anyone else for that matter.
Anyone know of any museums that have X-ray photos of these type 16 arrow heads.
Like they do of the viking wolf tooth spears, axes and the serpent in the sword designs.
Vikings were experts at forge welding and pattern steel. Also user/inventors of the steel bodkin from what my research has found.
The only X-ray photo I can find of the type 16 does NOT appear to be forge welded.
Photos and article here.
http://www.evado.co.uk/Hector%20Cole/PDFs/londonmuseum16arrowhead.pdf
* credit to Hector Cole* for the article and X-ray..... when ya wanna research start with the experts.
And there is a very simple way to make these that involves no welding what so ever.
I'd wager to forge weld a item that small x3( both barbs to one cone) wouldn't work to well the way forge welding is done.
and to forge the cone base then barb point and weld them together at the cone top and inner shoulder would be just as bad if not worse.
Not saying it can't be done it's just not production savvy and they were cranking these things out back then in record numbers. 3500 alone found on that Tudor ship wreck Mary Rose.
You don't make anything by hand like that in those numbers that is disposable that takes more then a few minutes to produce .
Rich
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Those para cord strung bows are made from PVC pipe. I have a friend who makes them, they actually shoot pretty good but aren't much in the looks department compared to a real wood bow.
Do those pvc bows actually pull warbow weight? I would imagine the handshock would be something awful.
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I forge period correct sharp pointy items and other things. when I forge something from history it's historically period correct as close as possible.
I'm sure you could probably find someone to make you a bow for some good points, but as stated already your not be able to shoot warbow weight. I would opt for a light weight english longbow, something around 30# to learn with would be great for you.
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A good Type 16 shouldn't really have flared out fins - the barbs which are fire welded onto the socket should be incredibly close to the socket, so that they look from a distance like one solid head.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMG_20150922_140920646_zpsn9qrpaj7.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMG_20150922_140920646_zpsn9qrpaj7.jpg.html)
Do you know the thought behind these. Were they for armor penetration and the barbs soft so they would expand when they tried to pull them out? Or was there something in the design that caused them to expand on contact. The first dum-dums?
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Rich, there weren't any heads at all found on the Mary Rose. The Tudor head that would have been used with arrows of that period are significantly different to a Type 16 as shown in my post.
This is a Tudor bodkin, based on the finds at Portchester Castle just down the road from where the Mary Rose sank. The original is dated to the same time period.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/DSC_4468edit_zpscxqkigmq.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/DSC_4468edit_zpscxqkigmq.jpg.html)
The expert I consider far more experienced than Hector is Mark Stretton and I've had many conversations with him regarding the Type 16. His consensus having inspected them in person numerous times is that they are indeed fire welded. You can make them by splitting the end of the point and forging them back to the socket but analysis of extant Type 16s doesn't support this, both in the metallurgy and the construction. The one in my photo was fire welded.
As for how common they were - some say very common, some say quite rare. I'm in the latter camp. They are so time consuming and expensive to manufacture that they're simply not practical for warfare. The most common type of head during the Hundred Years War would have been a Type 10, and with the development of the swage for a Tudor bodkin that would have taken the place of the Type 10.
The Type 16's barbs don't move, no. They are aerodynamic with the barbs sitting so low to the socket and once they're in, you ain't getting them out again. Most of mine have the barbs packed with stuff I simply can't remove as the design is so effective.
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This by the way is an original Tudor bodkin.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/typ10%2045mm%2010mm%201117g_zpsc3qu3ley.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/typ10%2045mm%2010mm%201117g_zpsc3qu3ley.jpg.html)
These are the ultimate mass production arrowhead. You make the socket in about 2 heats, and the point is placed into a swage and the whole shape is done in one hit and some edge grinding.
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Mr Stretton is a very famous person when it comes to the longbow.
World record holder and very in the "know" when it comes to the longbow.
I've also been directed to his videos over the last few months.
I DO consider him a expert.
Yes about three heats to make a arrow right now I'm using about 5 as I said I'm using a wood/charcoal fire when I make them with the blower either off or close to it. Once I have a proven consistent system down I'll use coal and probably forge them in between while I wait for other items to come up to heat.
I don't think the type 16 was a expanding arrow either. I also am pretty sure once it was in a object getting back out was a chore.
Splitting the front and forging it to design then back over the cone is how I would do it. that was the impression I got looking at the X-Ray from that article I posted. It would be the fasted most productive way to make them.
I had already thought about making a swage for the Tudor style tips. And ordered one Tudor tip yesterday. ( reverse engineer and pattern)
Also ordered a luggage scale to find the true Draw poundage of my aluminum long bow and crossbow. The bow shoots these heavy ones I made well just stuck on a aluminum shaft. It's 59 inches long and a 1/4 inch thick I make the strings 55 1/2 inches.
Draw works best with a 29 inch arrow and I can draw it to 28 inches.
R&D is time consuming and as I said before I have paying orders that I have to fill, a day job 3 days a week, and a family.
I guess like everyone I'm busy LOL!
Rich
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Charcoal is a pain ain't it. I've just finished building my Great Bellows (6ft long!) and charcoal forge, and while chatting to Mark the other day about starting he made it painfully apparent I'm gonna spend more time learning how to manage the fire than actually forging anything!
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Charcoal is a pain ain't it. I've just finished building my Great Bellows (6ft long!) and charcoal forge, and while chatting to Mark the other day about starting he made it painfully apparent I'm gonna spend more time learning how to manage the fire than actually forging anything!
Yes wood/charcoal is a pain even more so with manual air. that's why I have a electric blower on a variable knob. I can adjust or shut off as needed. when I burn wood/charcoal I only burn a milk crate in a 8 to 10 hr. day. coal even less as I shut the air off when there is no iron in the fire.
Fire management is KEY to properly forging. You are smart to go with charcoal/wood/coal as it lets you move the work around to only heat the part you are working on. It's the main reason I don't use propane/gas.
As promised A pic of my two bows I currently own. These are the ones I'm making my tips for and will be making the arrows over the winter also. ( inside work)
I am trying to get a proper English long bow as we speak. ( made in England)
It's kinda like the swords I own.
You can buy a USA made Katana but it's not a true Japanese sword unless it's made in Japan.
I wonder if Mr. Stretton sells those metal electrical outlet cover templates I saw in his video last month?
I'd sure like to buy one. It would save reinventing the wheel.
I went to order the Bodkin from his site yesterday but the site was out of stock and I didn't see any Tudor ones listed. So I was forced to order elsewhere.
Pix of the bows.
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/20151001_160536_zpszefhpb1z.jpg) (http://s136.photobucket.com/user/armalite_ar50/media/20151001_160536_zpszefhpb1z.jpg.html)
Rich
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Whatever you decide to go with for a bow, I would do it sooner than later so you can retire the bow you have. Those aluminum limbed bows have a reputation for hurting folks when the metal gets tired and the limb breaks. I am enjoying the conversation about the bodkins. Josh
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Rich, the absolute best place to get mediaeval arrowheads to study from is a guy called Miloslav Krizan. He's Slovakian, and trained under Mark for a short time. He supplies virtually all the arrowheads to the English Warbow Society now, and is responsible for the heads I've shown in this thread, both the stunning fire welded 16 and the Tudor bodkin. You will not find a more accurate representation of any head than his.
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WillS
I searched for Mr. Krizan and found videos but nowhere that his product is for sale.
I found a ELB and another member has also offered to make me one if the 1st one falls through.
So I'll end up with a nice one sooner rather then later.
Gun Doc I'm not worried about any of the two bows I own failing in any form. I don't store them strung and I know what to look for with alloys and metal for stress.
I've probably shot the bow more the last month testing then I have in the last 20 years I've owned it.
I will however take your warning and examine it closer as I use it now.
Tomorrow I should be back to making bodkins and other sharp pointy things to finish inside for the winter.
I'll also start a new thread in the arrows section as I get more tips made.
Rich
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His stuff is only available through Facebook. Worth signing up just for that though - you genuinely won't find better.
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Just got slam'n steel ( tool order)
and low and behold on the front porch was my luggage scale.
So like the adult kid I am I stung up that aluminun bow in the pic above.
10 draws with the wife behind me and 3 inches to go the luggage scale didn't allow me to get my full 28 inches.
it came out to 47.9 lbs 7 times and 47.8 3 times so I'll wager what I thought was a 35 or 40 lbs bow is in fact a 50 lbs draw.
I can draw it with ease too. That was what aways made me think it was lighter bow.
I'm going to shorten the strap on the scale tomorrow and try and have the wife get a pic or two of the poundage in full draw and light.
I'm glad I didn't rush right out and buy a bow as I was going to go t a 50 lbs long bow and I have a chance to buy a 80 lbs at 28 inch draw.
If I can't negotiate a price/trade with that person there is a board member here that is willing to help me out.
I'll just have to see if he can up the draw weight from what our Emails have been discussing.
I also haven't had a chance yet to check out Mr. Krizan's FB page. this order has taken the last 3 days to fill and I'm two parts short so I'm pretty busy. But I should be done and shipped tomorrow and back to making sharp pointy things on Thurs.
Rich